The New Ford Sports Car

[mercurymichael]

I may be a minority and a bit old school, but I do not think Ford needs a small sports car (I'm speaking of interior dementions). The Mustang is basically a two-seater-why they bother with the package shelf with seatbelts that they call a backseat is beyond me. They need a real personal luxury coupe again aka Thunderbird/Cougar. The last Thunderbird was beautiful, but overpriced and extremely cramped. At 6'2" it was uncomfortable getting in the car to begin with and once in my head was against the roof. The most ideal, would be taking the Interceptor concept or a stretched Mustang as the base for the car. I would prefer a true 2 door but would be happy w/ a 4 door coupe a la Mercedes. Make it elegant, but with cutting edge modern styling like the 'birds were in the sixties. Make it quick and powerful--it does not have to have a stupid number of horsepower or crazy 0-60 that is not what this consumer would want, however there could and should be a SHO or SVT version of the car for enthusiests. Before anyone points out the decline and eminent death of the Monte Carlo and Camery coupes, remember I said cutting edge modern styling. It was modern styling that saved the Thunderbird/Cougar in 1983 and kept them selling for serveral years after. Unfortunatly, the cars got the Crown Victoria/Grand Marquis/Town Car/Continental/Ranger/Taurus/Sable/Windstar/Freestar/LS/Contour/Mystique/Escort/Tracer treatment and were igonored --never restyled or updated or upgraded and eventually dropped due to poor sales.

 

I think they sad reality is that we will be lucky if we get a Fusion coupe.

[Ford-150]

Ford needs a "sports car," what they need to make is something that will give the corvette competition because the viper sucks, its too...well the ZO6 is better than it, ford has the Shelby GT500 just bellow the base vette and the FORD GT which exceeds the ZO6, they need something in the middle that can put a competitive edge on it, it wouldn't only benefit the FoMoCo but it will benefit both GM and FoMoCo because they both will have to build better "sports cars" not "muscle cars" the corvette is not a "muscle car" like a lot of people try to tell me, it's a "sports car" which ford lacks, the mustang is a "muscle car" and the Ford GT is a "super car", where is ford's "sports car"

 

thats just my honest opinion

[Biker16]

My idea for a Ford sports car is a

 

Mid-engined

 

I4 powered Coupe

 

Based upon a Tranverse powertrain barrowed from the C1 archtehcture.

 

Would share major components Form the C1/C2 program.

 

Would be Fords more civilized Lotus elise.

 

Styled after the GT90 concept car.

Target weight: 2500lbs

 

220-260hp From turbo I4 with MT6 6spd Tranaxle.

 

Cost $30k. Production would be split between 30k North america and 40k ROW.

 

YOU could assemble hte Cars in a C1 plant, brakes, engine management, wheels, swithgear would be shared with The Focus ST, and could be engineered alongside the Focus ST/RS. to reduce cost. the Risk of the programis in the development of chasis, crash structures, and frame, like the GT40 project the volume and weight targets could be perfect for composite, and alumunum construction.

Edited April 12, 2007 by Biker16

[sranger]

Why wouldn't they? They continue to rake in well over $170B per year in revenue.

 

 

And how much goes out the door as expenses and other costs?

[NickF1011]

And how much goes out the door as expenses and other costs?

 

Somewhere around $163B if they are breaking even. The LAST thing Ford is going to scrimp on is R&D. They realize that product is the only thing that's going to save them at this point, and cutting budgets on the very things that are going to save the company would be pretty foolish, no?

[sranger]

Somewhere around $163B if they are breaking even. The LAST thing Ford is going to scrimp on is R&D. They realize that product is the only thing that's going to save them at this point, and cutting budgets on the very things that are going to save the company would be pretty foolish, no?

 

 

I agree that they need to spend 7Billion ( or more ) on R&D. I am just not sure that they can continue to do so given the current fininancial situation and lack of a "hit" model in the current line up...

[RichardJensen]

I agree that they need to spend 7Billion ( or more ) on R&D. I am just not sure that they can continue to do so given the current fininancial situation and lack of a "hit" model in the current line up...

'lack of a "hit" model'?

 

Sorry--I'm not buying it. Hit models are poison--look at Chrysler and their LX hit cars. Made them think they had no problems to speak of. Look at Ford during the Explorer years.

 

It is far better to have a balanced lineup and a coherent marketing strategy than to have a 'hit' car and a bunch of back markers.

 

--

 

As far as 'current financial situation' goes, they are planning on being cash flow negative the rest of this year and the first half of 2008. Given that retail marketshare appears to have stabilized (it's been pretty consistently in the 12-14% range of all retail sales over the last 4 months, with, going forward little indication that they're likely to see a drop-off), and that capacity is being cut, there is no reason, IMO, for assuming that Ford will not be able to execute the strategy in place.

 

You really should listen to Mulally's analyst presentation at the Ford IR website.

[sranger]

Yea right Richard...

 

The Hit 2005 Mustang was really a horrable thing for Ford. To have a hot new model and basically be the only game in town in the class was just dreadful. Ford could not stand many more hits like that one... How much money did Ford lose on all of those Mustangs anyway????

 

As far as 'current financial situation' goes, they are planning on being cash flow negative the rest of this year and the first half of 2008. Given that retail marketshare appears to have stabilized (it's been pretty consistently in the 12-14% range of all retail sales over the last 4 months, with, going forward little indication that they're likely to see a drop-off), and that capacity is being cut, there is no reason, IMO, for assuming that Ford will not be able to execute the strategy in place.

 

Like I said Richard, you are an optimist....

 

I find that what companies "Plan" and what actually "happens" are usually quite different. In this current "tell the stock holders what they want to hear" world, companies always tend to base these future income levels on best case situations that are not likely to happen. Heck even the big cheeze admited recently that the "way forward plan" plan was already below target...

 

The "it's good enough" additude is not going to save Ford. The economy is going to take a hard hit later this year. It will be difficult for healthy auto manufactures to weather, much less ones mortaged up to the CEO's desk...

Edited April 14, 2007 by sranger

[RichardJensen]

Yea right Richard...

 

The "it's good enough" additude is not going to save Ford.

And thank you for neatly, but incorrectly, summarizing my opinion on the matter.

 

You apparently (stop me if I'm wrong), view this business as a foot race, with one 'winner' and a bunch of 'losers'.

 

Such an attitude is simplistic, and if embraced by corporate leadership, deadly as well.

 

The reality is that Ford needs its entire lineup to be competitive. They can't be throwing money into 'hit' vehicles, in the hopes that they will be 'home runs' that will 'turn the company around'. They can't pick and choose vehicles for investment. You apparently would starve some product (because you are so fond of pointing out that Ford's R&D budget is limited), in order to throw money at some flight of fancy, some alleged 'hit' vehicle from Europe or something.

 

'Hit' vehicles aren't worth much on their own.

 

And the Mustang is a PERFECT example.

 

The 'hit' Mustang moved 30k units more in 2005 than it did in 2004.

 

30k represents about ONE PERCENT of Ford's 2005 sales volume in the United States.

 

That, my friend, is the difference a 'hit' vehicle makes.

 

----

 

Ford will probably sell 120k Edges this year. That's about 4-5% of their 2007 volume. Unless they have competitive product in every segment, in this market, they can count on LOSING that much volume elsewhere.

 

I'll say it again. You can't rely on 'hit' products to cover the flaws in your lineup.

 

 

 

 

 

----

 

As far as Ford being on the 'low' end of target, I'm going to guess they'll be in the middle of their target by the end of this month. Big variable is and has been SD availability. There are places that still don't have sufficient inventory to sell from (F250-F450, in standard, extended, crew, and in the case of the 350 and 450 Cab/chassis, as well as FX4, XLT, Lariat & King Ranch trims, not to mention optional equipment and engine combos, you can't do brisk SD business unless you have a lot of inventory).

 

What Ford has been aiming at is having a product sales mix from one month to the next that matches the overall market. They're a heckuva lot closer to it now than they were 3 years ago, and you can thank Bill Ford for that.

[eddiehaskell]

The only way that makes any sense is if GM dropped production to a lower level than last year. This time last year they had sold 6,068 Solstices. This year they've sold 3,620. So what you're saying is that GM cut production by 40%? Otherwise, there are 2,448 Solstices sitting on the lots UNSOLD somewhere.

Did you figure in the 2500 Opel GTs (SKYs) that GM is sending to Europe? Did you notice that SKY sales are up? At the current pace, the Wilmington plant will produce the same amount of kappas that they did last year (around 30,000).

[TomServo92]

Did you figure in the 2500 Opel GTs (SKYs) that GM is sending to Europe? Did you notice that SKY sales are up? At the current pace, the Wilmington plant will produce the same amount of kappas that they did last year (around 30,000).

 

So what you're saying is they built all 2500 Opel GTs in month and starved the US dealer supply of Solstices by doing so? Got some proof of that?

 

Sky sales are up only because they had just started hitting dealer lots this time last year. April and May sales will determine if ths Sky is up or down, not March.

Edited April 14, 2007 by TomServo92

[eddiehaskell]

So what you're saying is they built all 2500 Opel GTs in month and starved the US dealer supply of Solstices by doing so? Got some proof of that?

 

Sky sales are up only because they had just started hitting dealer lots this time last year. April and May sales will determine if ths Sky is up or down, not March.

The Sky wasn't just up compared to last year - it moved more units in March than ANY previous month.

 

Let me break in down slowly for you.

 

First quarter '07

 

Solstice = 3,620

Sky = 2,837

 

Now, at the current pace, they will make 25,828 Solsti and Skys. Now if we add in the 2,500 pre sold GTs they are making, that totals 28,328 Kappas for '07.

 

Last year, the Wilmington plant made 28,471 Kappas. Well shazzam, whadda ya know - that is almost exactly the amount they are on pace to make this year. :reading:

 

They are also making the Daewoo G2X (rebadged Sky).

 

Sounds like a good move - make less for the U.S. which keeps them desirable (no incentives) with good resale values while also moving limited quantities to new markets.

[BlackHorse]

Sky sales are up only because they had just started hitting dealer lots this time last year. April and May sales will determine if ths Sky is up or down, not March.

 

I don't know what the numbers are going to say, but I do know that last night I stopped by the Pontiac dealer looking for a price on a G6 GTP and low and behold there were 4 Soltices sitting on the lot. Here is a car that not too long ago they only got in once in awhile, it never left the showroom floor and was usually gone with a couple days. Now, they have 4 just sitting there, probably a max allocation given the size of this dealer. I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that the cheapest one was 27 thousand dollars. What a ripoff.

[twintornados]

Richard is correct....you need more than a "hit", you need all segments to do well....look at Chrysler and the 300C Hemi "hit" of a few years back, rave reviews, car mags loved 'em.... they did so well, now the entire compan...err, "group" is for sale. Good job Dieter!!

Edited April 15, 2007 by twintornados

[TomServo92]

The Sky wasn't just up compared to last year - it moved more units in March than ANY previous month.

 

Let me break in down slowly for you.

 

First quarter '07

 

Solstice = 3,620

Sky = 2,837

 

Now, at the current pace, they will make 25,828 Solsti and Skys. Now if we add in the 2,500 pre sold GTs they are making, that totals 28,328 Kappas for '07.

 

Last year, the Wilmington plant made 28,471 Kappas. Well shazzam, whadda ya know - that is almost exactly the amount they are on pace to make this year. :reading:

 

They are also making the Daewoo G2X (rebadged Sky).

 

Sounds like a good move - make less for the U.S. which keeps them desirable (no incentives) with good resale values while also moving limited quantities to new markets.

 

I guess the number of Kappas built this year will depend on whether the trend of the plummeting Solstice sales (down anywhere from 24% - 58% compared to previous years sales on a month to month comparison and down 40% overall YTD) continues. Also, the March Sky sales are an anomaly compared to the historical sales numbers. Like I said in my previous post, April and May will determine if it remains an anomaly or signifies an upward trend.

Edited April 15, 2007 by TomServo92

[eddiehaskell]

I guess the number of Kappas built this year will depend on whether the trend of the plummeting Solstice sales (down anywhere from 24% - 58% compared to previous years sales on a month to month comparison and down 40% overall YTD) continues. Also, the March Sky sales are an anomaly compared to the historical sales numbers. Like I said in my previous post, April and May will determine if it remains an anomaly or signifies an upward trend.

The Solstice will continue to be down as long as GM keeps building a lot of Skys and makes room for GTs and G2Xs.

 

Look at the numbers.

 

First quarter '06:

 

Solstice - 6,068

Sky - 134

 

First quarter '07:

 

Solstice - 3,620

Sky - 2,837

 

The plant is making the same amount of total cars, they are just shifting around the amount of each car.

[BlackHorse]

I think we all learned a long time ago that you can make numbers say anything you want them to say. The honeymoon is over for the Solstice / Sky. That initial batch of "just had to have it" people have all made their purchases. The car now is relegated to the "just another car" category. The new has worn off. It's not the hottest, latest thing out there. It gets crappy reviews form Consumer Reports and when customers get to the lot and find themselves looking at a 2 seat roadster with a 4 banger motor and so / so interior with a 27 grand or higher price tag then the "just another car" Solstice starts looking more like a bad deal. I'd wager that by the fall they'll be offering rebates on them.

[eddiehaskell]

I think we all learned a long time ago that you can make numbers say anything you want them to say. The honeymoon is over for the Solstice / Sky. That initial batch of "just had to have it" people have all made their purchases. The car now is relegated to the "just another car" category. The new has worn off. It's not the hottest, latest thing out there. It gets crappy reviews form Consumer Reports and when customers get to the lot and find themselves looking at a 2 seat roadster with a 4 banger motor and so / so interior with a 27 grand or higher price tag then the "just another car" Solstice starts looking more like a bad deal. I'd wager that by the fall they'll be offering rebates on them.

Your attempt to discredit the success of the kappas is fully noted.

 

I will not ask for facts to support your "just another car" theory because you already said you saw 4 of them at you local car lot.

 

Bringing up Consumer Reports sealed the deal, because now it's obvious that you have done your research.

 

My hat is off to you fine sir.

[TomServo92]

I think we all learned a long time ago that you can make numbers say anything you want them to say. The honeymoon is over for the Solstice / Sky. That initial batch of "just had to have it" people have all made their purchases. The car now is relegated to the "just another car" category. The new has worn off. It's not the hottest, latest thing out there. It gets crappy reviews form Consumer Reports and when customers get to the lot and find themselves looking at a 2 seat roadster with a 4 banger motor and so / so interior with a 27 grand or higher price tag then the "just another car" Solstice starts looking more like a bad deal. I'd wager that by the fall they'll be offering rebates on them.

 

Precisely. And I have no doubt that the Sky will share the same fate.

[TomServo92]

The Solstice will continue to be down as long as GM keeps building a lot of Skys and makes room for GTs and G2Xs.

 

Look at the numbers.

 

First quarter '06:

 

Solstice - 6,068

Sky - 134

 

First quarter '07:

 

Solstice - 3,620

Sky - 2,837

 

The plant is making the same amount of total cars, they are just shifting around the amount of each car.

 

Actually, peak production for the Sky/Solstice combined was in 2Q06 at just over 8K units. It's been steadily declining ever since.

[BlackHorse]

I will not ask for facts to support your "just another car" theory because you already said you saw 4 of them at you local car lot.

 

I didn't include the fact that I've seen a couple of them on used car lots around town already as well. GM might as well drop the price tag to 20 / 21 K and sell the cars for about what they are worth market wise instead of holding on the the Gordon Gecko routine. lol

[eddiehaskell]

Actually, peak production for the Sky/Solstice combined was in 2Q06 at just over 8K units. It's been steadily declining ever since.

Since they are exporting 2500 GTs and making some G2Xs - it seems like the kappas are less than 1k units behind their peak quarter 9 months ago. That sounds VERY good. It sounds even better for a vehicle that still commands sticker price and is priced $2,000+ more than it's competition. :reading:

[eddiehaskell]

I didn't include the fact that I've seen a couple of them on used car lots around town already as well. GM might as well drop the price tag to 20 / 21 K and sell the cars for about what they are worth market wise instead of holding on the the Gordon Gecko routine. lol

The car is almost 2 years old - why am I not surprised you saw a couple used Solsti? :reading:

[TomServo92]

Since they are exporting 2500 GTs and making some G2Xs - it seems like the kappas are less than 1k units behind their peak quarter 9 months ago. That sounds VERY good. It sounds even better for a vehicle that still commands sticker price and is priced $2,000+ more than it's competition. :reading:

 

Will they be producing 2500 Opel versions each quarter? Uh, that would be a no. Therefore, if the downward trend continues, they won't be hitting the same sales as last year. The only way it could be good, much less VERY good, is if they reverse that trend.

[BlackHorse]

The car is almost 2 years old - why am I not surprised you saw a couple used Solsti?

 

Right, I'm sure that's why they both had '06 in big yellow letters on the windshields, because they are two years old. Face it man, the magic is over. I'm sure the Solstice will still sell some cars of course, but the hoopla is gone, and the sucker factor has been lowered because now they have to sell it to people who don't get all wrapped around the axle about a new sporty car. Now they have to sell it to normal human beings. When a normal human being looks at a roadster with an ecotec motor and a very poorly positioned battery, combines that with crappy ratings on the reliability scale, marginal interior design, and a bloated 27 grand price tag than normal human being laughs to himself and goes over to Mazda, or they just resign themselves to buying some other kind of car where they don't get ripped off so bad. The rebates will be forthcoming before you know it.