Volvo's future within Ford (26-27 June)

[igor]

Ha !

 

I guess you never heard ! Ford bought Volvo after they could not buy BMW !

Ford made a bid on BMW?

wow ..

 

Igor

[LincolnFan]

Why would they bid on BMW? They have Lincoln.

[igor]

Why would they bid on BMW? They have Lincoln.

well this was back in the day of Nasser .. he believed the more the better about luxury brands :D

 

Igor

[LincolnFan]

Oh yea more trash brands.

[Ford Jellymoulds]

Ford could disregard CAFE and pay fines if they wanted to also, but they don't. BMW feels like paying CAFE fines, that's their choice. I don't really see anything unfair about it. Maybe the govt should increase CAFE fines, but other than that, I don't see what can or should be done about it.

 

BMW can claim a 16% VAT Tax refund for every BMW they sell into the USA from the German Government, so can every other German manufactuerer so CAFE fines are a big joke.

 

If you scroll down to Germany highlighted in Green and read about the unfair advantange

 

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54076

Edited June 27, 2007 by Ford Jellymoulds

[NickF1011]

BMW can claim a 16% VAT Tax refund for every BMW they sell into the USA from the German Government, so can every other German manufactuerer so CAFE fines are a big joke.

 

If you scroll down to Germany highlighted in Green and read about the unfair advantange

 

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54076

 

So we should tax them back? No thanks. I'm glad I don't live somewhere like Germany or the UK where the government thinks the answer to every problem is a new tax.

[Michael Reynolds]

Sure, just like Zetsche said he wouldn't sell Chrysler.

 

Yeah, because Chrysler was so integrated with MB core operations. Please elaborate as to how the situation with Volvo and Ford is similar to that of the Chrysler Group and Mercedes-Benz. Oh wait you can't.

[Ford Jellymoulds]

So we should tax them back? No thanks. I'm glad I don't live somewhere like Germany or the UK where the government thinks the answer to every problem is a new tax.

 

That’s why the US trade deficit is so large Nick because it's not just cars, Germans can sell anything into the State its not just cars, and claim the 16% VAT back, it’s not a 16% disadvantage it's 32% trading price disadvantage, because if Ford did ever start producing kinetic global cars they have 16% VAT slapped on them in Germany. The VAT will end up killing off US companies that can't complete with the tax fiddle. Ford can't claim 16% back if it exported any of the cars on this websites header to Germany. Microsoft get fined billions for unfair competition in Europe so why can't the Germans. How can Ford ever be expected absorb a 32% tax fiddle from the Germans?

 

I agree 100% with what you say Nick, you don't won't want extra taxes, and you should not have to pay them for German cheating tax practices. But what the USA government should introduce a unfair competition tax on all German Imported goods of 32% so that only the lovers of German tax fiddling cars pay the extra tax, not Ford buyers that being disadvantaged by the German tax cheats. Fords would still be VAT free, as the tax should only apply to tax cheats.

Edited June 27, 2007 by Ford Jellymoulds

[68Cougar]

Why would they bid on BMW? They have Lincoln.

Ha! You're kidding, right?

[Blue II]

Ford made a bid on BMW?

wow ..

 

Igor

 

Ol Jac made Honda an offer as well.

[atomcat68]

In the 1970's Honda was willing to sell to Ford and it was Henry Ford II that squashed it.

[wescoent]

In the 1970's Honda was willing to sell to Ford and it was Henry Ford II that squashed it.

 

Ford was also ready to import the Honda Civic in the early 70's as a Ford, but HFII also stopped that at the last moment.

 

Sad...

[LincolnFan]

Ha! You're kidding, right?

 

Why is BMW better than Lincoln? If Lincoln wasn't neglected in the past 20 years BMW would still be a no-name carmaker in America.

[Michael Reynolds]

Ford was also ready to import the Honda Civic in the early 70's as a Ford, but HFII also stopped that at the last moment.

 

Sad...

 

Was the Civic any good back then?

[grbeck]

Was the Civic any good back then?

 

Honda was willing to sell a drivetrain to Ford, which Ford would then install in its own body and chassis. If I recall correctly, the car would have been based on the then-new Fiesta. Honda could supply the complete drivetrain for considerably less than what a Ford drivetrain would have cost.

 

Iacocca was pushing the idea, but Henry Ford II nixed it - probably because their legendary feud was reaching the boiling point (this was the mid-1970s).

 

Would it have been a good car? Honda drivetrains were leaders for economy and emissions even back then, while the use of Ford bodies and chassis components would have eliminated the chief complaint against Honda (and other Japanese cars at that time) - propensity to rust. It certainly would have been an interesting car, and much better than anything offered by GM or Chrysler at that time.

[NickF1011]

That's why the US trade deficit is so large Nick because it's not just cars, Germans can sell anything into the State its not just cars, and claim the 16% VAT back, it's not a 16% disadvantage it's 32% trading price disadvantage, because if Ford did ever start producing kinetic global cars they have 16% VAT slapped on them in Germany. The VAT will end up killing off US companies that can't complete with the tax fiddle. Ford can't claim 16% back if it exported any of the cars on this websites header to Germany. Microsoft get fined billions for unfair competition in Europe so why can't the Germans. How can Ford ever be expected absorb a 32% tax fiddle from the Germans?

 

I agree 100% with what you say Nick, you don't won't want extra taxes, and you should not have to pay them for German cheating tax practices. But what the USA government should introduce a unfair competition tax on all German Imported goods of 32% so that only the lovers of German tax fiddling cars pay the extra tax, not Ford buyers that being disadvantaged by the German tax cheats. Fords would still be VAT free, as the tax should only apply to tax cheats.

 

Why should people buying BMW's be charged an extra 32% for it? I may very well buy a BMW for my next car. I sure as hell won't pay a 32% premium for it in taxes. NO extra tax is a good thing, even on a SMALL number of products -- fair competition be damned. If American companies actually build "Ultimate Driving Machines" they might not have to worry about all of this. Instead we get MKZ's.

[jasonj80]

Yeah, because Chrysler was so integrated with MB core operations. Please elaborate as to how the situation with Volvo and Ford is similar to that of the Chrysler Group and Mercedes-Benz. Oh wait you can't.

 

 

Number of platforms shared by MB and Chrysler - 0, the number of powertrains shared in the U.S. 1(jeep diesel) DC wouldn't let Chrysler integrate and use parts and powertrains which is what needed to happen for it to be successful. DC saw the press go nuts in 2000 when the LS and Jag came out plus the whole X-type nightmare, basically that and German ego's is what undid the merger. The press going nuts in 2000 is also why Jag got the short stick, there were other plans for Jag/Lincoln, but between the negative PR that the LS/s-type generated it caused those plans to be put on review, a few months later in the review the Firestone Debacle happened, recalls went thought the roof, that pretty much ment all the funds that were e-marked for Lincoln/Jag platforms went out the window.

 

Ford and Volvo are very integrated and getting even more so -- Ford uses Volvo Powertrains, Platforms and even some switch gear, they are going to a common electrical bus in future revisions, Volvo's will also start to use Ford Engines in a few years. The press is so hot to be the first to report something, plus the Internet has created this pseudo journalist, they don't have to have facts, or actually talked to anyone -- just make it up.

[Ford Jellymoulds]

Why should people buying BMW's be charged an extra 32% for it? I may very well buy a BMW for my next car. I sure as hell won't pay a 32% premium for it in taxes. NO extra tax is a good thing, even on a SMALL number of products -- fair competition be damned. If American companies actually build "Ultimate Driving Machines" they might not have to worry about all of this. Instead we get MKZ's.

 

But Lincoln won't have a hope in hell of surviving Nick, if BMW are allowed carte blanche to get a 16% tax refund from the German government for every Beamer it sells in the USA. If they use this 16% to undercut Lincoln on price, US jobs will be lost you can't blame Lincoln because they are being undercut by cheating Germans, how are they going to generate the profits to build your Ultimate Driving Machine Nick? But l do agree with you, if your car is good enough it will sell on merit no matter how much the others cheat.

 

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54076

[Michael Reynolds]

^^ Great points. The execs in Stuttgart had plenty of examples from Ford and Jaguar as what not to do when you are integrating a platform btwn a low production luxury marque and a high production mid-priced marque. Instead we ended up with bits and pieces from the former E Class which wasn't such a bad thing..............and the Crossfire.

 

vs.

 

Volvo/Ford sharing every single platform the Swedish automaker currently utilizes. As I mentioned before the execs have had plenty of examples of how to and how not to integrate a low production high end platform with those of cheaper and more readily available cars. This my friends is why I don't see Volvo going anywhere. Too bad Saab hasn't enjoyed similar treatment.

[Deanh]

Why should people buying BMW's be charged an extra 32% for it? I may very well buy a BMW for my next car. I sure as hell won't pay a 32% premium for it in taxes. NO extra tax is a good thing, even on a SMALL number of products -- fair competition be damned. If American companies actually build "Ultimate Driving Machines" they might not have to worry about all of this. Instead we get MKZ's.

my answer....no tax benefits..ZIPPO...LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD...imports have had advantages for too long...granted it has forced better domestic product...but enough already....next up...CHINA! and mark my words...they are going to have a HUGE impact once the Government gives them their "Come to America " package..........

[NickF1011]

my answer....no tax benefits..ZIPPO...LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD...imports have had advantages for too long...granted it has forced better domestic product...but enough already....next up...CHINA! and mark my words...they are going to have a HUGE impact once the Government gives them their "Come to America " package..........

 

Well unless you plan on starting a trade war with Germany to get them to eliminate the tax concessions, don't expect any changes. There's nothing the US govt can do from a policy standpoint that wouldn't piss off the entire world even more than they already are.

[TStag]

BMW can claim a 16% VAT Tax refund for every BMW they sell into the USA from the German Government, so can every other German manufactuerer so CAFE fines are a big joke.

 

If you scroll down to Germany highlighted in Green and read about the unfair advantange

 

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54076

 

Sorry I have quite a lot of VAT knowledge and this article makes no sense. VAT is a tax levied upon the final DOMESTIC consumer. If I am a car maker I would be required to pay VAT on each component that I buy to put into the car. However because this is a tax on the final consumer (i.e You and me) the car maker would be entiled to reclaim this VAT back from the Tax authorities. If I am a German car maker and I sell this car in Germany then I would be required to charge the final customer 16% VAT and pay this over to the tax man. I can not recover this! However if I export this then I am exempt from charging the tax as it's a tax on the final DOMESTIC consumer. So effectively no VAT has been incurred or charged and the tax man gains nothing and loses nothing.

 

So if BMW export the car from Germany they will not pay any tax on the sale of the car because there is no final consumer in Germany. Now let us assume that the car is exported to the USA. Once it lands in the USA it may have to pay import tax. Then it goes into a showroom (for arguements sake a BMW owned showroom) and a sales tax is then levied by the federal state. BMW pays the US Government both import tax and sales tax.

 

So basically no one's gaining or loosing unless the US government charges sales tax on exported goods. That's a US decision not a European one. Who ever wrote that article should be shot. It's totally wrong. To be honest VAT is more complicated than sales tax but it's designed to clamp down on tax evasion. It's not designed to be more punative. In my experience (and I don't mean this in a bad way) American's struggle with the concept of VAT because it's alien to them and complex. But European's find sales tax easier to grasp because it's very straightforward. I think this Journalist simply doesn't understand VAT.

Edited June 27, 2007 by TStag

[bolita]

Sorry I have quite a lot of VAT knowledge and this article makes no sense. VAT is a tax levied upon the final DOMESTIC consumer. If I am a car maker I would be required to pay VAT on each component that I buy to put into the car. However because this is a tax on the final consumer (i.e You and me) the car maker would be entiled to reclaim this VAT back from the Tax authorities. If I am a German car maker and I sell this car in Germany then I would be required to charge the final customer 16% VAT and pay this over to the tax man. I can not recover this! However if I export this then I am exempt from charging the tax as it's a tax on the final DOMESTIC consumer. So effectively no VAT has been incurred or charged and the tax man gains nothing and loses nothing.

 

So if BMW export the car from Germany they will not pay any tax on the sale of the car because there is no final consumer in Germany. Now let us assume that the car is exported to the USA. Once it lands in the USA it may have to pay import tax. Then it goes into a showroom (for arguements sake a BMW owned showroom) and a sales tax is then levied by the federal state. BMW pays the US Government both import tax and sales tax.

 

So if Ford export a car from the US to Germany no sales tax is levied in the USA (as there is no final consumer in the USA). Import tax is probably then charged to Ford by the German government (just like in the USA) and VAT will be levied when the car is sold by the dealer.

 

So basically no one's gaining or loosing. Who ever wrote that article should be shot. It's totally wrong. To be honest VAT is more complicated than sales tax but it's designed to clamp down on tax evasion. It's not designed to be more punative. In my experience (and I don't mean this in a bad way) American's struggle with the concept of VAT because it's alien to them and complex. But European's find sales tax easier to grasp because it's very straightforward. I think this Journalist simply doesn't understand VAT.

 

You're right. VAT - Value Added Tax is a consumer tax, charged to the final user.

 

I do believe that its not the manufacturer (or any one providing the good or service) who pays VAT its the consumer or end user who pays it. Whoever issues the invoice is resposible toward their tax office for retaining this tax.

 

Now, in some cases and some countries that use VAT, you can recover this tax as a credit (say you buy a truck for your business, you take the VAT paid as credit and deduct it from the VAT you pay on items you invoice).

 

Now, some countries, and I do not know if Germany is one of them, give tax incentives to companies that export and generate positive foreign trade.

[theoldwizard]

Ford made a bid on BMW?

It was very hush, hush, but did leak into the press

 

Detroit News, 2/11/1999

CHICAGO -- Ford Motor Co. President Jacques Nasser does not believe that BMW AG is for sale, but would not rule out a bid for the German automaker if it becomes available. Speculation about a takeover of BMW was ignited last week by the resignation of its CEO, Bernd Pischetsrieder, and another top executive in the wake of deep losses at its Rover subsidiary. However, the Quandt family, which owns 46 percent of BMW, has repeatedly stated its desire to keep the company independent

The Quandt family swing a lot of weight with the board. Ford was trying to convince them to sell a big part/all (?). Lots of jettng back and forth by the family and others on the 12 floor, until the Germans finally said "No".

 

I don't think they really needed the money (now proven) and they certainly didn't want any Americans messing with a German company !

[TStag]

Now, some countries, and I do not know if Germany is one of them, give tax incentives to companies that export and generate positive foreign trade.

 

That may be so but by EU law they can not use the VAT system to do this. In fact the author implied German car makers recieve a subsidy to make exports cheaper. That is not true at all. They may get tax relief but the US government is also free to offer this to it's exporters. So effectively there is no "ill gained" advantage to the German car maker.

 

I've just sent an email explaining EU VAT law to this dim wit!

Edited June 27, 2007 by TStag