Focus Shifts to Lincoln from Mercury - Car News

[RichardJensen]

How can you compare the '04 Taurus to the Five Hundred?

Why would you compare the '04 Taurus to the Five Hundred?

e-x-a-c-t-l-y.

 

That's precisely my point.

[TStag]

I see no one has tried to argue that Lincoln can make it in Europe, not even LincolnFan. Come on someone try and make an arguement without laughing and then breaking wind as you double over in stiches....

[syrtran]

Lets see:

 

Using Lexus as an Example:

 

ES Series

GS Series

IS Series

GX Series

LS Series

LX Series

RX Series

SC Series

 

Vs Lincolns line up:

 

MKZ

MKX

MKS

MK Flex

Town Car

Navigator

 

There are a whole bunch of other niches that Lincoln needs to fill, Like a Smaller SUV (The Kuga was supposed to do that but the value of the Euro killed that) a Sporty Sedan (MKR Hopefully) and even a coupe model can be added into that...thats where the "volume" is going to come from.

Hey! No fair refuting my arguments using logic. This is BON, after all.

 

I took a quick look at sales numbers, using the GMI thread here. (September sales)

 

IS 3,757

ES 6,491

GS 1668

LS 2,918

SC 297

RX 7,841

GX 1,964

LX 178

Total 25,114

 

Mariner 2,699

Milan 2,557

Sable (+Montego) 1,851

Mountaineer 1,559

Grand Marquis 2,737

Total Mercury 11,403

 

MKZ 2,589

+Milan 5146

MKX 3,805

Town Car 611

+GM 3348

Mark LT 795

Navigator 1,964

Total Lincoln 9,764

Total LM 21,167

 

It looks like Lexus is outselling all of LM. The RX bests the MKX and the IS outsells the MKZ, while the Navi has it all over the LX. I don't see any other direct head-to-head competitors (TC vs LS? not hardly, and the MKS has to be released first).

 

I think part of this is Americans' continued misperception of build quality in Ford's cars. And Toyota's - anyone know if the Camry's problems affected the ES?

 

However, it looks like, if Lincoln can get the reputation it deserves, they could very well increase volume and maintain profitability - and compete with Lexus.

[sranger]

Ford is going to have to spend a lot of $$$ trying to get the "old fart car" or "soccer Mom" image off of the Lincoln brand. If they are willing to do this, they will succeed, if not, they will fail. Ford needs to learn to do product placement better in current hit TV shows. I have seen the new Nissan Roge in at least five of the top shows. The hot young adults and teens are all drooling over this rather plain little SUV. People in general tend form opinions based on what they see on TV. With the wide spread use of digital video recorders, people rarely watch comercials any more... ( I Know I do not ) That makes product placement in Shows/movies far more importiant. Ford better learn this lesson quick...

 

As for marketing Mercury to women, it is probably the best idea possible for the brand. Women are far more loyal to a brand than men ( if they have a good experance ). The new Mariner has an old out dated drivetrain, yet it is selling well. Does anyone want to bet against me that the vast majority are being sold to women? Women do not pay much attention to what makes a car move. They primarly buy on Appearance, Safety, reliability, Fuel Milage, and interior features. This is a perfect fit for Mercury. It is far less expensive to tart up a Ford's facia and interior than it is to make a more desirable drive line for a lincoln that will appeal more to men.

Toyota/Lexus prefected the "market to women" technique and it obviously worked. There are not many products that appeal to women that fail...

[LincolnFan]

I see no one has tried to argue that Lincoln can make it in Europe, not even LincolnFan. Come on someone try and make an arguement without laughing and then breaking wind as you double over in stiches....

 

Said it a hundred of times, Lincoln should never grace Europe with it's prescence. People there are too arrogant.

[P71_CrownVic]

Said it a hundred of times, Lincoln should never grace Europe with it's prescence. People there are too arrogant.

Not to mention that they probably wouldn't be too happy taking a step backwards in terms of quality.

[syrtran]

No, I'm not. Mercury's raison d'etre is to bring buyers to FoMoCo that Ford and Lincoln cannot. As long as it does this, it deserves to be supported. If you avoid reading between the lines, and read what is actually said it 1) makes a lot of sense, and 2) is quite practical.

No, as has been hashed here before, Mercury's raison d'etre since 1939 has been to keep people from walking out of Lincoln dealerships when they discovered a Continental/TC or Mark was just out of their reach. At least it was until the Versailles showed up, and Lincoln started expanding their line-up downward.

 

Lincoln will be the volume player, as Mercury will be three or four models (three confirmed, one speculative), while the Lincoln lineup expands to 5-7 (MKZ, MKS, MKX, MKFlex, Navigator confirmed + alleged MKR & small ute & MKS+).

 

And that's fine.

Mariner, Milan, Sable. The GM is down for the count, and the Mountaineer disappears with the redesigned Explorer. IMO, Taurus X (lack of) sales numbers don't bode well for a rumored Mercury version, and the MKFlex will nail that coffin shut.

 

Slap a split grille on the Mariner (ewww), and there's no reason for Mercury. The Milan and Sable don't bring anything to the table that a full-line Lincoln can't handle, except for lower prices. And lower prices isn't something a premium Lincoln would need (see Lexus comparo, above). The only other possible Mercury - a D2C(2?) Cougar - could easily (and probably will) be morphed into a T-bird.

 

Had Nasser not ignored Mercury and let Lincoln move up we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

 

P.S. This was a marketing blurb - reading between the lines is essential. </IT guy >

[Edstock]

I see no one has tried to argue that Lincoln can make it in Europe, not even LincolnFan. Come on someone try and make an arguement without laughing and then breaking wind as you double over in stiches....

 

Well, the concept isn't as ridiculous as you might think, and has historical precedent. Back in the 20's and 30's Lincolns were shipped all over the world. My grandfather had a K in Port Elizabeth, South Africa, for example.

 

With the appearance of the Getrag transmissions, the MK Z could do quite well outside NA. Add bigger brakes and Mondeo-type active suspension, and the AWD Z can hold its own against any other 3.5 liter sedan. Add a Twin Force HP option . . .

 

One way to test this, when Twin Force/Getrag arrives, would be for Ford to commission the top 5 European tuners to make aftermarket variants, and see what kind of buzz it generates. A 500 hp AWD MK Z . . . .

 

The point is, the Z is the right international size for smaller roads.

 

Then there are bigger roads, in the biggest country — Russia. The question is, does Ford sell the TC over there, and if so, how many?

[syrtran]

That sounds like the vehicle equivalent of the camel ('a horse designed by committee').

Straw man alert! What he posted said nothing about the number of designers.

 

What Lincoln needs to do is talk to its customers, talk to customers of rival products, and find out what scratches their itch.

 

They need a consumer focus, not a product focus. What you are describing is a product focus.

The Edsel was the result of consumer-focus, the Mustang was from a product focus. For the Edsel, Ford spent over a year talking to their customers, asking them what they wanted. As for the Mustang, one man saw the opportunity for a sporty, stylish, low-priced compact. The market research only showed poorly selling Corvairs and V8 compacts.

 

Every now and then, you need to build a product that no one else does, just to see what happens. Ford hasn't done that since the original Explorer.

[Ralph Greene]

I know several middle to older age women who drive Mercury and/or Lincolns. It's not so much they are loyal to their brand, it's that they are loyal to their more nicer upscale dealership. My wife being one of them.

 

My wife is certainly not a snob, but she won't shop at a typical Ford dealership. She thinks the Mercury/Lincoln brands offer her better value. She knows the difference between cost and value. Kinda like Walmart VS Target, etc. Maybe that's why women like Mercury.

Edited November 24, 2007 by Ralph Greene

[TStag]

Said it a hundred of times, Lincoln should never grace Europe with it's prescence. People there are too arrogant.

 

I'm not sure I'd phrase it like that but essentially I agree. When it comes to premium motors we are snobs in Europe. It must be either a BMW, Audi, Jag, Merc, Alfa, Volvo, Porsche or Land Rover. I suppose European's genuinly believe they make the best premium cars and that the likes of Lexus have no history, no image, and frankly are dull as hell. People generally also view Lexus as Toyota. Unlike the USA we don't tend to like Toyota as much as their cars are dull.

 

That's why Lincoln and Ford should take note of Chevrolet and attempt to soften any Lincolns up for Europe. They must handle on our twisty roads, they must look less American (the grill is all wrong on the MKS for Europe) and they must improve the interior. Then Ford has a choice. Spend a decade trying to build Lincoln up and make BIG losses or use a European brand name or a completley new name. Using the Lincoln brand here is a non starter really. In my view they should hang on to Daimler or Rover and use those brands. Much simpler all round.

[RichardJensen]

No, as has been hashed here before, Mercury's raison d'etre since 1939 has been to keep people from walking out of Lincoln dealerships when they discovered a Continental/TC or Mark was just out of their reach.

It hasn't been 1939 for about oh, 68 years now. Whatever Mercury's position was in 1939, that is no longer its position. What Mercury does, quite clearly, is bring -different- customers into Ford dealerships.

 

You may not like that these people are different and are buying Mercury products but they are and they are, therefore it is absolute idiocy for Ford to actually -spend money- to get rid of these customers.

[retro-man]

My only experience with this is remote. But, I notice in older movies - like old James Bond movies - you will often catch a glimpse of a Lincoln, Cadillac, T-Bird, or Mustang (still loved almost everywhere) on the streets of Monaco or some such place - and they look really good. That was back when they still had some claim to being world standard. I don't see any reason that can't be won back. But this time it will be come from behind, instead of handed down from on high. A completely different position to be in. The only thing coming out of the U.S. right now that I see having a chance at that is Cadillac - and it will take a sustained effort over many years. But I think it can be done. It will never happen with half-assed product though.

Edited November 24, 2007 by retro-man

[RichardJensen]

The Edsel was the result of consumer-focus, the Mustang was from a product focus.

See that's the thing about market research. It is a tool that is only as good as the hands that wield it.

 

The Edsel is the equivalent of this:

 

 

That piece of crap does not prove that Photoshop is useless. That piece of crap proves that Photoshop makes bad ideas worse.

 

Read the history of the Edsel, it becomes quite apparent that no one RUNNING the project knew what they were doing or why they were doing it. No wonder the market research was so scattershot.....

 

BTW: Ford Taurus-product focus, or consumer focus? Answer: consumer focus.

Edited November 24, 2007 by RichardJensen

[DCK]

It hasn't been 1939 for about oh, 68 years now. Whatever Mercury's position was in 1939, that is no longer its position. What Mercury does, quite clearly, is bring -different- customers into Ford dealerships.

 

You may not like that these people are different and are buying Mercury products but they are and they are, therefore it is absolute idiocy for Ford to actually -spend money- to get rid of these customers.

Mercury Brings in different customers which is great, WHY DOESN'T FORD CAPITALIZE ON IT?

Edited November 24, 2007 by DCK

[RichardJensen]

Mercury Brings in different customers which is great, WHY DOESN'T FORD CAPITALIZE ON IT?

They are. A new customer comes into a Mercury dealership. And Ford sells them a Mercury.

 

 

 

You want that Ford should spend hundreds of millions of dollars a year on a brand that brings in a hundred thousand sales a year? You want Ford should import vehicles from Europe and sell them at a loss (or at the very least, a decidedly lower profit)?

 

Ford is doing what makes sense with Mercury. Focusing on the differences that mean something. Ignoring the differences (e.g. provenance) that don't.

 

 

 

 

You know, after enough failures it should be obvious that 1) importing a vehicle from Europe or 2) spending money on distinct platforms/vehicle options for Mercury doesn't make sense. If the odds of failure are so high, and the reward for success so small, why bother?

[Ralph Greene]

My wife's 05 Premere Montego has standard HID's and a tad better looking interior than Five Hundred of that year I think, and that's about all Ford needs to do to differentiate it from the Ford products IMHO. No reason the Lincoln name can't take over this market eventually.

 

She would have bought a Zephr (this was 2005), but liked the larger Montego. Next time, she can get a Lincoln, no problem.

[wescoent]

I think someone said it best that it would be better to have Mercury underneath Lincoln than sell Lincolns with cloth seats and steel wheels, ala Chrysler.

 

Mercury needs the Milan, Mariner, Sable, and Mountaineer as their core product group. Eventually, maybe a Milanetto and Cougar can join that group. You can get a nicer trimmed Ford, or a junior Lincoln, depending on how you choose to trim them out.

[RichardJensen]

I believe it was 2005Explorer that said that, and I think he's summed it up pretty well in one sentence.

[DCK]

They are. A new customer comes into a Mercury dealership. And Ford sells them a Mercury.

You want that Ford should spend hundreds of millions of dollars a year on a brand that brings in a hundred thousand sales a year? You want Ford should import vehicles from Europe and sell them at a loss (or at the very least, a decidedly lower profit)?

 

Ford is doing what makes sense with Mercury. Focusing on the differences that mean something. Ignoring the differences (e.g. provenance) that don't.

You know, after enough failures it should be obvious that 1) importing a vehicle from Europe or 2) spending money on distinct platforms/vehicle options for Mercury doesn't make sense. If the odds of failure are so high, and the reward for success so small, why bother?

This isn't about importing anything.

 

Ford is not capitalizing on Mercury, they are starving them to death.

 

They can have their variant of every single damn Ford they want, but for christ sakes give Mercury unique design, slapping a new grill and taillights on it ae not enough, it is penny wise and dollar dumb. Then talk about a hundred thousand sales. Mercury was pushing 400k sales not to long ago, the reason of their 60% decline is in the fact that Ford won't even invest in a different interior for Mercury, they should be more different than silver and chrome trim pieces.

[RichardJensen]

Mercury was pushing 400k sales not to long ago

Yeah. And those sales are GONE. They're not coming back.

 

Pragmatic approaches to this situation require that you do what it is profitable to do. It is foolish to invest in all new sheetmetal when doing so will NOT increase volume sufficient to retain an equivalent gross per unit.

 

You invest in products to the extent that it is profitable to invest them.

[wescoent]

This isn't about importing anything.

 

Ford is not capitalizing on Mercury, they are starving them to death.

 

They can have their variant of every single damn Ford they want, but for christ sakes give Mercury unique design, slapping a new grill and taillights on it ae not enough, it is penny wise and dollar dumb. Then talk about a hundred thousand sales. Mercury was pushing 400k sales not to long ago, the reason of their 60% decline is in the fact that Ford won't even invest in a different interior for Mercury, they should be more different than silver and chrome trim pieces.

 

Mercury was selling 400,000 units a year not long ago. How many of those were Grand Marquis? How many of those were Tracers? The Grand Marquis is a sinking ship (no pun intended), and I will concede that bringing back a Tracer (Milanetto?) wouldn't be a half bad idea once the C2 Focus comes online.

 

Ford is in a bad financial situation right now, and they don't have enough development dollars to differentiate Mercury enough. So they're giving them new front and rear ends, and different trim for the interior. People are still buying enough Mercurys to justify it... so why stop? It's better to do this, than spend billions to shut down the brand, then spend another billion to bring it back online in 3 years when Ford DOES have enough money to spend on it.

 

I 100% agree that Ford should spend more on Mercury WHEN THEY HAVE THE MONEY TO. I do agree that Mercury has incredible potential, and that its better to spend a couple bucks on Mercury now to hold them steady while we wait for profits to come back.

[old_fairmont_wagon]

As much as I may disagree with some of the product decisions that Ford has made with Mercury (particularly not giving Mercury a Freestyle/Taurus X clone when the Monterey was canned), I do think that they are in a decent position today and have a true reason d' etre at a L/M dealership. They currently keep the volume up by selling in the sub $30K range. In the future, they should make a line at about $30K. Lincolns above that price point and Mercuries below that point. With that deliniation, Mercury should be free to sell whatever they can fit into that price range. I know the Meta One would have had a rough time fitting into that mold, as, loaded it would have easily pushed into the mid 30s, but, I believe if it was intelligently packaged and comboed, it could offer style and value at around $30K. But, that's another story.

 

Mercury can still outvolume Lincoln if they get a competent entry in the C segment, be it a Focus clone, or something similar. I used to have a problem with Mercury not getting exclusive, or sharing low volume platforms, but, I realize that, unless such a product is perfectly executed and marketed very well, its never going to justify its investment. Unfortunately, we all know Ford, and they'll either make a boneheaded product decision or, completely fail to market it. So, just being a skin job of a Ford will have to do. I do, however, suggest that they increase their level of investment in interior differentiation. If they're trying to sell style in that brand, the interior quality of design and material needs to be improved.

 

At least Mercury can prevent Lincoln from suffering its own X-type disaster by keeping it from going downmarket to achieve dealership volume. That, in itself, will be more than enough reason to keep it around for a long time to come. At least until Lincoln has earned enough investment to have a full stable of products and achieve sufficient sales volume to keep the dealerships happy. I do believe that may be the goal of the most recent focus on Lincoln. But, like I said, this is all opinion.

[syrtran]

It hasn't been 1939 for about oh, 68 years now. Whatever Mercury's position was in 1939, that is no longer its position. What Mercury does, quite clearly, is bring -different- customers into Ford dealerships.

 

You may not like that these people are different and are buying Mercury products but they are and they are, therefore it is absolute idiocy for Ford to actually -spend money- to get rid of these customers.

You misunderstand me. I want Mercury around. I just don't believe that that is Ford's intent. I think Ford's got it in their collective heads that they can make Lincoln a stand-alone brand. Tell me, why does Lincoln have a freakin' truck? Is it really that profitable to slap a different grille on 9000 King Ranches a year? And what's with a Lincoln miniva- er, "people mover"? Who's the market for that? Seen many of the Mercedes R-class lately?

 

As for Mercury, they need the Edge and Flex (and a Sable wagon/Taurus X) more than they need an SUV, although a new Mountaineer might sell okay. They also need a Cougar, and a new Grand Marquis, and, possibly, a proper c-class car. Bring them back as a full line and you'll see the L-M dealers get happy, again.

 

Like Wescoent posted, Mercury needs to slot under Lincoln, and base somewhere near or slightly above Ford division's better trim lines. They don't need to be 'feminine', just be nicer to drive and ride in. They need to be what I call "boulevard" cars - something you don't mind being seen in while ignoring the tar strips while cruising the highways and 4-lanes - as opposed to Euro-style cars (sorry guys, you'll have to get your 'kinetic' somewhere else).

[FordBuyer]

I'm not sure I'd phrase it like that but essentially I agree. When it comes to premium motors we are snobs in Europe. It must be either a BMW, Audi, Jag, Merc, Alfa, Volvo, Porsche or Land Rover. I suppose European's genuinly believe they make the best premium cars and that the likes of Lexus have no history, no image, and frankly are dull as hell. People generally also view Lexus as Toyota. Unlike the USA we don't tend to like Toyota as much as their cars are dull.

 

That's why Lincoln and Ford should take note of Chevrolet and attempt to soften any Lincolns up for Europe. They must handle on our twisty roads, they must look less American (the grill is all wrong on the MKS for Europe) and they must improve the interior. Then Ford has a choice. Spend a decade trying to build Lincoln up and make BIG losses or use a European brand name or a completley new name. Using the Lincoln brand here is a non starter really. In my view they should hang on to Daimler or Rover and use those brands. Much simpler all round.

 

 

It does look like Mercury has caught on with women. And that could be good reason to keep Mercury around if Ford does exactly that. All the auto companies now covet women buyers, and if Mercury is cultivating women buyers, that is real plus. Looks to me that Mercury is doing just that with new Voga line for Mariner and Milan. And can't forget Jill Wagner.