Traveler Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 (edited) I myself wasn't really saying that a RWD flagship required a V8 necessarily. It could possibly be used for some years to come, but if this Twin Force is anything like its purported to be, it should be more than sufficient to power such a sedan. Ford must think the same thing since the Twin Force was under the hood of the MKR. Size does matter in the luxury car market. If not, then the Lexus GS would be entirely adequate for Lexus' flagship and there wouldn't be a need for the LS. Until a more efficient means of fueling a V8 is found, we will likely see the eight cylinder engine take a backseat in coming years to higher-performance six cylinders that mimic V8 performance as we know it. Lexus fields four sedans: LS, GS, ES and IS. Since Lexus is a major global luxury car moniker, I think its fair to hold it up against Lincoln as a template and compare. The IS is the entry level Lexus and the MKZ is Lincoln's model. The MKS may bridge between the GS/ES models. Now, where is Lincoln's own Lexus LS 430? Perhaps I hold Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Audi in too high esteem, but I don't think you're going to get by with comparing Lincoln to the Germans like you could to Lexus. Lexus is the most realistic luxury car target outside of Cadillac in the U.S. market. Of course, few know what Cadillac is planning with their flagship model. There has been rumors of a high-end flagship sedan, although the rumors have died down significantly. It has been said that the DTS will be cancelled and that the DTS and STS will morph into something that appeals to both types of customers...the traditionalists and those that like the European flair. I just think that Lincoln really needs a flagship RWD sedan, powered by an adequate powertrain and if that is a forced-induction V6 so be it. I do not think that everyone will want FWD or AWD in their luxury car. Again, the template of Lexus demands RWD for the flagship and any comparable M-B, BMW or Audi will also have RWD with some sort of stability control. Edited December 31, 2007 by Traveler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old_fairmont_wagon Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 Well, considering that the 4.6L is about as wide as it is long, it would depend on the transmission design to make it work. Personally, They need to stick with the MKS for a while and make it the best that it can be. There's no sense in trying to stretch GRWD up from the Stang price range to the Flagship range, no chasis is that flexible. Until Lincoln has enough volume on its own to support the R&D and the following production costs associated with a large RWD chasis that is good enough to be considered for a top end luxury car. That's a pipe dream, Lincoln will not have that kind of volume for a decade or more. So, we'll get either one of two things from Ford. The first will be a GRWD vehicle that is warmed over as much as possible and will be sold as an ad-hoc flagship. This is no different than what they've done for decades with the Town Car and would be the expected route. It will likely be better than the TC in every measurable way, but, likely won't meet standards set by the 7 series, S class, A8, etc. But, it will likely sell well enough to justify its existence. The other option is a stretched out MkS. The next gen of the D3 platform should be able to have a bit more stretch in it, while being improved again for dynamics. That should grant the possibility of an MkS-L or something along those lines. We shouldn't forget that part of the definition of American Luxury for the last half century is interior room and long range driving comfort. That's the reason that big, floaty land barges have had the volume that they've had for so long. Granted, that market is dwindling as SUVs took a bite out of it (SUVs were able to offer more space, and the image of being able to go anywhere in style). As awareness of fuel consumption continues to rise (Notice, I didn't say the price of gas, in the lux market, that has little meaning) the image shift will force people into cars again. This may make a better market for the Lincoln Flagship than would otherwise be present. I just can't see Ford investing a lot into Lincoln above the Navigator, MkFlex, MkS anytime soon. If I was Ford, I'd look very strongly at making a green version of the Navigator/Expedition/F-150. If that's a twin-force V6 setup for them, then so be it, but it better come close to the Hybrid Escalade in consumption figures for it to mean anything in the market. I fully expect there to be a Hybrid MkFlex at some point, just as I expect a Hybrid Flex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 Well, considering that the 4.6L is about as wide as it is long, it would depend on the transmission design to make it work. Personally, They need to stick with the MKS for a while and make it the best that it can be. There's no sense in trying to stretch GRWD up from the Stang price range to the Flagship range, no chasis is that flexible. Until Lincoln has enough volume on its own to support the R&D and the following production costs associated with a large RWD chasis that is good enough to be considered for a top end luxury car. That's a pipe dream, Lincoln will not have that kind of volume for a decade or more. So, we'll get either one of two things from Ford. The first will be a GRWD vehicle that is warmed over as much as possible and will be sold as an ad-hoc flagship. This is no different than what they've done for decades with the Town Car and would be the expected route. It will likely be better than the TC in every measurable way, but, likely won't meet standards set by the 7 series, S class, A8, etc. But, it will likely sell well enough to justify its existence. The other option is a stretched out MkS. The next gen of the D3 platform should be able to have a bit more stretch in it, while being improved again for dynamics. That should grant the possibility of an MkS-L or something along those lines. We shouldn't forget that part of the definition of American Luxury for the last half century is interior room and long range driving comfort. That's the reason that big, floaty land barges have had the volume that they've had for so long. Granted, that market is dwindling as SUVs took a bite out of it (SUVs were able to offer more space, and the image of being able to go anywhere in style). As awareness of fuel consumption continues to rise (Notice, I didn't say the price of gas, in the lux market, that has little meaning) the image shift will force people into cars again. This may make a better market for the Lincoln Flagship than would otherwise be present. I just can't see Ford investing a lot into Lincoln above the Navigator, MkFlex, MkS anytime soon. If I was Ford, I'd look very strongly at making a green version of the Navigator/Expedition/F-150. If that's a twin-force V6 setup for them, then so be it, but it better come close to the Hybrid Escalade in consumption figures for it to mean anything in the market. I fully expect there to be a Hybrid MkFlex at some point, just as I expect a Hybrid Flex. I agree w/ everything you've said. On the green Expedition/F-150/Navigator front, the 4.4L Lion Diesel engine is coming soon (supposedly), so that will be at least part of what you're looking for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armadamaster Posted January 1, 2008 Share Posted January 1, 2008 Look like warmed over econo cars. The MKS has a very nice look to it. Yeah...a nice LEXUS look to it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suv_guy_19 Posted January 1, 2008 Share Posted January 1, 2008 (edited) Yeah...a nice LEXUS look to it.... Yes, in fact your right. It is different from the Lexus but similar. I know you don't like such things, but then you don't share the car buying tastes of most normal people.... Edited January 1, 2008 by suv_guy_19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackManta Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 I created this one 'bout a year ago... By rrsportsc1 at 2008-01-01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Explorer4X4 Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 None of those. Lincoln needs its own CTS, its own IS. It needs a car that will draw attention. As good as the MKS is, no one can say its gotten as much cognizance as flagship sedans from Cadillac, Lexus, Mercedes or BMW. I don't think Lincoln should move upmarket, but they need to get competitive. It all starts from an excellent flagship model. I vote for a high-tech, luxurious, top-of-the-line large sedan. Perhaps a production version of the Lincoln MKR concept. It should certainly have the Twin Force V6, it has to be rear wheel drive, it has to have a great transmission, and above all it has to perform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 None of those. Lincoln needs its own CTS, its own IS. It needs a car that will draw attention. As good as the MKS is, no one can say its gotten as much cognizance as flagship sedans from Cadillac, Lexus, Mercedes or BMW. You may have a point, but how about waiting until the gawddam sled is at the dealership? It's too bad we have to wait for the TwinForce turbo power, but that's life. There is nothing inherently wrong with the D-3/CD-3 AWD chassis that precludes handling or touring versions, even tuner versions like with the Volvo S-80 that was at SEMA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armadamaster Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 Yes, in fact your right. It is different from the Lexus but similar. I know you don't like such things, but then you don't share the car buying tastes of most normal people.... Meh...Normal's overrated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 I created this one 'bout a year ago... By rrsportsc1 at 2008-01-01 Thats a good chop of the XJ, good job. Personally, I'm not so sure that rear end works on a sedan, but it's a good chop, nonetheless. Maybe having the headlights and license plate cutout lower would help? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 Yeah, and a different FONT!!! It is a good photoshop, technically, a very good one, but artistically, it's a bit too overripe.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 Yeah, and a different FONT!!! It is a good photoshop, technically, a very good one, but artistically, it's a bit too overripe.... I guess he wanted a classy looking font for a classy looking vehicle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 I guess he wanted a classy looking font for a classy looking vehicle. Yeah, but do you end up with the 300C styling problem? Everybody loves it for about 12 months and then they move on... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 I guess he wanted a classy looking font for a classy looking vehicle. Yeah. But that cursive is -not- the way to be current with fonts. My real job is as a designer and a programmer. What you want is a Roman font in all caps with plenty of space between individual letters. This font is more akin to what Lincoln did in the late 70s/early 80s: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 Yeah, but do you end up with the 300C styling problem?Everybody loves it for about 12 months and then they move on... With this Town Sedan? I believe it's possible, but at the same time, it could happen to any vehicle. On another note, I think the LS has aged very well. I still like it's design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 Yeah. But that cursive is -not- the way to be current with fonts. My real job is as a designer and a programmer. What you want is a Roman font in all caps with plenty of space between individual letters. This font is more akin to what Lincoln did in the late 70s/early 80s: I don't like the font either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 Fonts and typography. How the car designer wants to do the badging can affect the font selected. What kind of badge? Made how? Fonts are also an area in which Sturgeon's Law rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 Ahhhh Bodoni. So classy. So old. So annoying that no one has built a free version.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 Fonts and typography. How the car designer wants to do the badging can affect the font selected. What kind of badge? Made how? Fonts are also an area in which Sturgeon's Law rules. I like that. Maybe on the original picture, just moving the text to the center and making it larger, like you did, would help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 IMO, Bodoni may not be the way to go with this either. It's a classic, classic font, but too staid for Lincoln's intended audience. Lincoln has used Futura for quite a while now, and I think it's the right font--it's about the only thing they've been consistent about, and I thoroughly agree with it. It's much more timeless than Optima, and unlike Optima, can be used as a title and body font. For Futura, see almost all the fonts on http://www.lincoln.com/reachhigher http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/berthold/futura-serie-bq/ Futura is a Bauhaus era font, Optima is more of a PoMo revisitation of ancient Roman monumental alphabets: http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/agfa/optima/ Don't get me wrong, I like Optima, but it's a little too narrow in its use (so-so for titling, so-so for copy), and in what it 'says' (to me it says: hotel or shopping mall) Anyway, 5 minutes of font fun for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 Ahhhh Bodoni. So classy. So old. So annoying that no one has built a free version.... I agree . . . this was a quickie just to get the eye away from script fonts, which Lincoln must stay away from, because Detroit loved using them at the height of its crapulence. As to free, the rise of Fontographer following the original, Publisher's Type Foundry made the wonderful world of gray-market fonts possible. The Bodoni that's on the flea-market bargain CD may not be quite as fine as ITC's Bodoni, or whatever the FontShop sells, but for most of us, the no-name equivalents do OK. The Bodoni I used was Corel Bodoni. http://www.fontshop.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 (edited) I agree . . . this was a quickie just to get the eye away from script fonts, which Lincoln must stay away from, because Detroit loved using them at the height of its crapulence. I didn't like it much either. I should've clarified. I didn't like the old script font, sorry about that. Edited January 2, 2008 by rmc523 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 I recently downloaded Dutch Type Library's "Light" version of their Font creation software. One of the cool modules is called "Ikarus", and it allows you to open an existing TrueType font and alter the letter shapes. Just got done doctoring up ITC Officina Sans, but I'd really like to get my hands on some older Roman & Bauhaus fonts to scan. Fortunately I have a friend with some old foundry books.... :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 (edited) Careful with the old foundry books, before you know it, you'll have one of these Linotype casters in your garage along with a hand-crank flat-bed proofing press for galleys. Here's a site with interesting obscure foundries, put together by a very clever dude, Luc Devroye, who has done a lot of work in the area. http://cg.scs.carleton.ca/~luc/ext19.html http://cg.scs.carleton.ca/~luc/fonts.html Edited January 2, 2008 by Edstock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder2299of7839 Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 back to a Lincoln flagship it really does need to be RWD for two reasons, first, the high-end marques are RWD, (RR, Bentley,etc) and while Lincolns don't compete in that market directly, they need to infer a resemblance to be taken seriously by people actually shopping for a flagship sedan. flagship customers want more than a lexus with a lincoln star on it. second, ford needs a fleet-capable Lincoln, and keeping the TC on life support isn't a great plan. Jack Nasser gave away ford trucks medium-duty platforms to damlier, because he didn't understand (or care) about the importance of fleet sales (hell sterling still hasn't had to spend a dime on updating these trucks 10 yr later, and it is damliers most profitable segment) giving the livery market the finger and going FWD or V-6 will doom Lincoln to competing with the flagship Hyundai, and eventually it will be no more. the flagship in my opinion needs to have at least 400 HP available and be RWD, I would style it like a 64 Lincoln with grille suicide doors, and slab styling. it should share some drive train with ford truck (v-8/v-10) but be its own platform not shared with anything else (possibly a fleet police vehicle witha differnt body look). bolt the 03-up panther front and rear suspension to a unibody that is stretchable from the beginning drafts, and you will be on to something. lincolns used to run with the big boys, and then for 50 years settled into a comfortable and stylish class of its own. I think it needs to go back into that nitch, and not try to be a Volkswagen or Nissan with leather and trinkets. and mercury? it may well be a lost cause. the metro-sexual craze is long over, and they didn't get the memo... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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