Lincoln Flagship

[Bagrah01]

The past proves almost nothing. Besides, they didn't have available AWD. They also didn't have the upcoming twinforce.

 

Twinforce for all intensive purposes doesn't exist, and AWD isn't a magic bullet.

[Blueblood]

The 3 series is not a luxury car! The bigger, more luxurious 7 or 8 series isn't nearly as tossable.

 

I disagree, they have everything, from heated seats to HID headlamps which turn with the steering wheel (I was quite surprised to discover this feature on it), to comfy seats which adjust in ever way, to legroom which allows my long legs to stretch out completely to every gizmo and luxury gadget you can think of, it's got it, including an incredibly smooth and comfy ride which is amazing considering how great the car handles.

 

I question whether you've been in one if you think it's not a luxury car?

Edited December 31, 2007 by Blueblood

[suv_guy_19]

Twinforce for all intensive purposes doesn't exist, and AWD isn't a magic bullet.

 

 

The engine that was named twinforce, for all intents and purposes, is still coming in a year or less from MKS launch. It simply has a new name.

 

As for AWD, it is becoming very important.

[Bagrah01]

BTW, Lexus's #1 selling car has no sport appeal at all.

 

Smart to offer it. But there is plenty of sporting appeal available if buyers so desire.

[suv_guy_19]

Smart to offer it. But there is plenty of sporting appeal available if buyers so desire.

 

But many seem to desire the Luxury feel. Lincoln will most likely offer a sporting appeal in the future. As I said. I takes time to get where they are going, and they can't do it all at once. Its important to worry about higher volume where possible.

[TomServo92]

I question whether you've been in one if you think it's not a luxury car?

 

I've been in several and IMO, the 3 series is a luxurious sports sedan but it's not what I consider an all out luxury car. I'll grant you it's a very fine distinction.

 

EDIT: Yeah! 1,000 posts! :happy feet:

Edited December 31, 2007 by TomServo92

[Edstock]

Plus a "luxury" build in the flush side window glass, instead of cheap window frames like Altima or Chrysler 300 or Taurus.

[timmm55]

I question whether you've been in one if you think it's not a luxury car?

 

Yes I have. My uncle has an M3 and a friend has a M5. And they are SPORT SEDANS, with a lot of bells and whistles (and power!) .....not luxury cars.

[Mark B. Morrow]

Yes I have. My uncle has an M3 and a friend has a M5. And they are SPORT SEDANS, with a lot of bells and whistles (and power!) .....not luxury cars.

 

 

Much of the distinction of a Luxury Car has been lost in the last 40+ years. Back in the '50s and '60s it was rare for a Ford or Chevy to have power windows, locks, air conditioning and the like. It was easy to distinguish a Lincoln or Caddy from a Ford or Chevy. The Luxury Cars also had much nicer interior materials and in most cases better build quality. There was a substantial cost premium as well. My '63 Lincoln cost nearly $7,000.00 new compared to around $4,000.00 for a fully loaded '63 Galaxie. There was room between the entry level and the Luxury class for mid price cars like Mercury, Olds and Buick today the price differential has shrunk to a minimal amount.

 

Since the '70s power and convenience amenities have moved from the option list to standard equipment on even the low priced cars. Just try to find a car on a lot today with roll up windows and no A/C. There just isn't as much to set the classes apart.

 

There are still some pure luxury cars but as the top lines have moved downward to increase sales volume, they have encroached on the mid and lower price lines. In the old days there never would have been an MKZ, CTS or Mercedes C series.

 

I don't know if Lincoln will be able to move up to the upper level to compete with the high line Mercedes, Lexus or BMW. If they intend to try they will need to have a superior product. There is no room for compromise at the top.

[RichardJensen]

 

A8 has a HFO, and I would guess weight distribution, because of that, is not as good as one might expect.

 

 

Furthermore, Blueblood, if the aim is to out-BMW BMW, one best give up ahead of time, as it is unlikely that BMW will be out BMW'ed by anyone any time soon.

 

Weight distribution and driving dynamics are of prime importance to only a handful of luxury car buyers. For the rest, it's image image image. Which is why Ford could build the best stinking $60k luxury sedan out there and still not sell more than a handful with the Lincoln star on them.

 

Better, IMO, to turn the MKS & S80 into truly superb and well respected entries in their segments, and focus efforts on those cars, rather than doing a credible job on each, kicking back, ignoring them, and pursue the big fish.

[RichardJensen]

The advantage of building up the MKS & S80 is that it builds a brand specific basis for the next vehicle up in price.

 

If you want to do a 'voila', "instant luxury car lineup", you have to pick a marque (like BMW) and slavishly imitate them; you end up trading off your credibility as an imitator of BMW (e.g. Cadillac, Infiniti) or Mercedes (Lexus), etc.

 

If, however, you invest time in building a customer base and following for your particular brand's unique elements, then you can graduate them up to your E-size offerings, and they will then stand on their relationship to your pre-existing range, and not as "wannabe BMWs or MBs"--it is worth noting that while Lexus is the largest luxury make in the US, IIRC, they do not outsell BMW or MB in the D & E segments (GS vs. E, 5, CLS; LS vs. 7, S).

[Traveler]

Lincoln has been savvy with their revolutionary changes made to their line-up. They started with the entry-level model (Zephyr/MKZ) and worked through the lineup in such a subtle way that we now see the transformation nearly complete and questioning when the flagship sedan will come. We've even toughed it through the MK-terminology to have grasped the mindset behind it. I know my MK's without having to do a Google search or check the Lincoln website.

 

So now we have Navigator (the odd ball), MKX, MKZ, MKS and Town Car. So, now what? To me, it seems only a natural for a long-wheelbase rear-wheel drive flagship sedan to take its place at the top of the Lincoln chain of command and we can all read between the lines and see that the Panther Town Car will only go but for a few more proverbial miles before its retired. I think in keeping with Lincoln tradition, you have to have the RWD flagship sedan.

[P71_CrownVic]

Why does everyone keep bringing up Audi. Lincoln doesn't have a hope-in-Hell of competing with them.

[suv_guy_19]

Why does everyone keep bringing up Audi. Lincoln doesn't have a hope-in-Hell of competing with them.

 

Why, they already outsell them :P. Seriously though, some day they hopefully will have cars of the same calibre.

[matthewq4b]

Priemium FWD luxery cars have never done well.

 

For many reasons. Driving dynamics is the biggest. No FWD is going to drive as nice as a RWD even when not being pushed.

 

AWD is really a waste of money unless you live in some place that gets snow or your looking for every last bit of performance. RWD with AWD optional is really the best route.

 

The question is what should the flag ship be ?

 

 

In all most all the other Luxery marques the flag ship is the largest most comfortable sedan. None of them are FWD's.

 

So making the FWD or AWD MKS the flagship is proboly not the smartest move. Something needs to be slotted above that. The show Conti fit the bill pretty damn good in my opinion.

 

 

But that is my opinion.

 

 

 

Matthew

[P71_CrownVic]

Why, they already outsell them :P. Seriously though, some day they hopefully will have cars of the same calibre.

But I said "compete"...not out-sell.

[jpd80]

Seems the question should be, what is Lincoln's flagship used for now?

Where do most Town Car sales go?

 

Forget all romantic ideas about going after Audi or BMW or whatever,

Lincoln should replace the Town Car with a long wheelbase MKS for liveries, a slipping sales area.

That would improve the brand's youthful image and give liveries a greener car (V6 Flex fuel).

[rmc523]

The 3 series is not a luxury car! The bigger, more luxurious 7 or 8 series isn't nearly as tossable.

 

I believe that is true, the 3 series is more of a luxury car geared more heavily toward (and w/ more emphasis on) sportiness, rather than opulent luxury. Coming from 3 series driving experience (convertible), they are EXCELLENT performers, in every way you can think. The cars are sporty, but still have a great, smooth ride.

 

I havent driven a 7 series, but I'm sure you're right. The 8 series no longer exists (but is rumored to become the production version of the CS Concept).

[rmc523]

I disagree, they have everything, from heated seats to HID headlamps which turn with the steering wheel (I was quite surprised to discover this feature on it), to comfy seats which adjust in ever way, to legroom which allows my long legs to stretch out completely to every gizmo and luxury gadget you can think of, it's got it, including an incredibly smooth and comfy ride which is amazing considering how great the car handles.

 

I question whether you've been in one if you think it's not a luxury car?

 

It for some reason, doesn't offer A/C/cooled seats. (I believe it should, I like having it in our 2004 Expedition)

[rmc523]

I've been in several and IMO, the 3 series is a luxurious sports sedan but it's not what I consider an all out luxury car. I'll grant you it's a very fine distinction.

 

EDIT: Yeah! 1,000 posts! :happy feet:

 

Hey, I'm not the only one that likes looking at their own post count!

[rmc523]

 

I don't know if any of you heard or not, but beginning with the 2009 Navigator, there will be a Chrome Body option, like the Audi pictured above. A Lincoln desinger said, "....the idea was to out-bling anything on the market" when asked why, he also added, "we are developing a gold plated model for 2010 as well."

 

 

Better, IMO, to turn the MKS & S80 into truly superb and well respected entries in their segments, and focus efforts on those cars, rather than doing a credible job on each, kicking back, ignoring them, and pursue the big fish.

I highly agree!

 

Weight distribution and driving dynamics are of prime importance to only a handful of luxury car buyers. For the rest, it's image image image. Which is why Ford could build the best stinking $60k luxury sedan out there and still not sell more than a handful with the Lincoln star on them.

 

Which is why Lincoln just debuted it's new logo today, It looks similar to something I've seen before, I just can't place it.

Edited December 31, 2007 by rmc523

[Traveler]

I suspect that a large RWD flagship Lincoln would have the same appeal as the Town Car, but with a renewal of interests from prospective buyers that has been lost over the years. It would probably be popular with the limo/livery businesses in commercial usage, but would have an increased popularity for personal usages. It would find the same audiences in the U.S. and likely in the Middle East, as well. If Lincoln would build such a car, I'd bet that it would be selected for use as a Presidental limo the next time around seeing as how Cadillac is abandoning the DTS soon. That could perhaps boost the Lincoln image some since over the years, Cadillac has been the primary make that fulfilled that role.

 

Personally, I don't think Lincoln needs to worry about German luxury automakers or Japanese for that matter. Lincoln is running behind on the world scene. They need to strengthen their market where they are most likely to have the greatest success. The flagship Lincoln, such as the MKR concept, is needed in the markets that it will prosper the most and signficantly so, that means at home. I think Lincoln has shown itself to have a pretty fair lineup of new models, but they need the larger RWD flagship as does the Ford brand.

Edited December 31, 2007 by Traveler

[FordBuyer]

Lincoln has been savvy with their revolutionary changes made to their line-up. They started with the entry-level model (Zephyr/MKZ) and worked through the lineup in such a subtle way that we now see the transformation nearly complete and questioning when the flagship sedan will come. We've even toughed it through the MK-terminology to have grasped the mindset behind it. I know my MK's without having to do a Google search or check the Lincoln website.

 

So now we have Navigator (the odd ball), MKX, MKZ, MKS and Town Car. So, now what? To me, it seems only a natural for a long-wheelbase rear-wheel drive flagship sedan to take its place at the top of the Lincoln chain of command and we can all read between the lines and see that the Panther Town Car will only go but for a few more proverbial miles before its retired. I think in keeping with Lincoln tradition, you have to have the RWD flagship sedan.

 

Don't forget those new CAFE rules signed into law. That is going to change everything. I would think Ford is rethinking all its plans now. Vehicles are going to be lighter and engines are going to become smaller. 2020 sounds like far away, but it really isn't and plans have to be put in place starting now. The horsepower wars will be ending soon. Composites, aluminum, and other lightweight materials will be used more and inrease the price of cars. I agree that the average price of a vehicle will go up at least $10,000 by 2020 and more vehicles will be built overseas to keep those costs under control. Washington has just made sure more jobs go overseas, not less. Good job Washington.

[TomServo92]

Hey, I'm not the only one that likes looking at their own post count!

 

I didn't really pay that much attention until I got close to 1K.

[Edstock]

Don't forget those new CAFE rules signed into law. That is going to change everything. I would think Ford is rethinking all its plans now.

 

As a guess, the MK-Flex will be the livery replacement for the TC, with aftermarket 120" stretches and all that.

 

Now, some have a mindset that luxury MUST be big, but that mindset is changing with every full-load C-class and 3-series that gets sold.

 

I haven't seen a MKS, except for pictures, but when you look at the dimensions, does Lincoln really need a bigger "flagship"? The MKS seems to be bigger than the pictures suggest.

 

Sure, a big gasoline V-8 is a great idea, but with the advent of hybrids and diesels, is it really necessary in the luxury segment?

 

However, I wonder, is there any way that the D-3 chassis could take a 4.6 arranged longitudinally? AUDI has switched from sideways to longitudinal for its new sleds, beginning with the new A-4.