wescoent Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 (edited) We've seen the MKS, and at least some of us know it as the "flagship by default". The original plan called for a vehicle above the MKS, but it appears to be cancelled. Also, the current Town Car is being severely cut back to fleets and special order only. The question is, does Lincoln need a flagship above the MKS? The MKS is already a very large car, but it lacks the "grand" proportions of the LWB S-Class, or even the current Town Car. We know the MKR is coming, but it will be a midsized sports sedan to slot alongside/below the MKS in price, and smaller in size. So what does Lincoln do? a- Leave the MKS alone, and let the fully loaded Twin Force model be the flagship of the brand b- Build a new Town Car on Huntsman, and leave the MKS FWD/AWD c- Put the MKS on Huntsman, and introduce an MKS-L model Edited December 30, 2007 by wescoent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wescoent Posted December 30, 2007 Author Share Posted December 30, 2007 I would go with option C. Within 3-4 years of launch, Ford should get the next MKS on Huntsman, and move the car slightly upmarket to make a little room for a sports-oriented MKR. Same idea... RWD/AWD, with an emphasis on striking a nice balance between secure handling and a nice ride. Then, they should stretch the wheelbase by 4-5" or so, with half of that coming on the B-pillar, and half on the A-pillar for a longer hood. Sheetmetal should be similar to the normal MKS, but the suspension should be revised and upgraded for a top of the line ride. Then, for the old-timers, introduce a "Town Car" package with plusher armrests and upholstery, more chrome, a new grill, and a plusher ride. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ds91776 Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 I think the Lincoln car lineup should look like this: MKZ: F/AWD based on CD3-4, entry car to compete with ES, TL, 9-3, TSX, etc. Use base 3.7 and hybrid engines. MKR: huntsman based R/AWD sport sedan with more radical styling and more powerful engines (with optional twin force for instance) to compete with: 3, C, G37, A4, IS, CTS MKS: D4/share with future S80 platform. AWD sedan with two V6 (one twin force) and optional V8 and hybrid. Competes with 5, E, M45, A6, STS, RL, etc. MKC: As part of move upscale, join with Volvo to make a rwd platform for the S100 and the MKC. Std V8 with optional Twin Force application as well. Competes with 7, S, Q45, LS,etc. MK9: MKR based hard top convertable with V6 and V8 engines with ultra cool styling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
94stangcobra Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 We know the MKR is coming, but it will be a midsized sports sedan to slot alongside/below the MKS in price, and smaller in size. So what does Lincoln do? Is it, in fact, true that the MKR is actually coming? I certainly hope so and I hope that they are able to translate that great styling into production. I realize we probably won't see the transparent roof, but that's fine with me. Lincoln needs this car bad. Hopefully, it remains a 4 door coupe. I think it is a unique opportunity to produce a car like that because the competing 4 door coupes are much more expensive. Besides, the 4 door coupe stlying was dramatic and expressive. I think FoMoCo made a huge mistake in attaching the "flagship" moniker to the MKS. While I don't doubt that it's a great car, it is not a flagship. A true flagship would be a car like the MKC that was mentioned by another poster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcsario Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 (edited) The last thing Lincoln should do right now is pulling a Phaeton. Work on the lower end first. Ford needs a CTS/3-series/C-Class competitor, not necesarily a sedan, the MKR could be it, huntsman, V8. And yeah, I know the Caddy is a one trick pony, but it did wonders for Cadillac's credibility. You can have a flagship after that, the MKForenza won't do shit even if it had 500HP. It's extremely generic even with the MKR grille, and no, any comparisons with the XF are ridiculous. Get the snowball rolling first with something exciting, remember, targeting Lexus is not the smart move long-term. Edited December 30, 2007 by pcsario Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANTAUS Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 The simple fact that Ford doesn't have a clear plan of what to do with Lincoln, itself is quite irresponsible. Waiting for another "flagship" 4-5 years along the line is unacceptable as well. I would say focus on the lower end, your image, and your reputation, THEN maybe people can aspire for a flagship above the MKS. Conceptually, the whole fact that the MKS is following the LS's pricing scheme itself worries me...$38K to start, then what $55K for TF V6? I believe a flagship should have one sole engine, and itself be a specific vehicle, rather than a trim level.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 I think the Lincoln car lineup should look like this: MKZ: F/AWD based on CD3-4, entry car to compete with ES, TL, 9-3, TSX, etc. Use base 3.7 and hybrid engines. MKR: huntsman based R/AWD sport sedan with more radical styling and more powerful engines (with optional twin force for instance) to compete with: 3, C, G37, A4, IS, CTS MKS: D4/share with future S80 platform. AWD sedan with two V6 (one twin force) and optional V8 and hybrid. Competes with 5, E, M45, A6, STS, RL, etc. MKC: As part of move upscale, join with Volvo to make a rwd platform for the S100 and the MKC. Std V8 with optional Twin Force application as well. Competes with 7, S, Q45, LS,etc. MK9: MKR based hard top convertable with V6 and V8 engines with ultra cool styling. I agree w/ this plan, although the MKC, IMO, should wait a while until the rest of the lineup has great quality (which it does already), is completely separate (design-wise, inside and out) from Ford, and has built it's own new following. Basically wait on the MKC until the new Lincoln lineup is established. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wescoent Posted December 30, 2007 Author Share Posted December 30, 2007 The last thing Lincoln should do right now is pulling a Phaeton. Work on the lower end first. Ford needs a CTS/3-series/C-Class competitor, not necesarily a sedan, the MKR could be it, huntsman, V8. And yeah, I know the Caddy is a one trick pony, but it did wonders for Cadillac's credibility. You can have a flagship after that, the MKForenza won't do shit even if it had 500HP. It's extremely generic even with the MKR grille, and no, any comparisons with the XF are ridiculous. Get the snowball rolling first with something exciting, remember, targeting Lexus is not the smart move long-term. Agreed that Lincoln doesn't need a Phaeton, but the kind of car I envision would slot directly above the MKS, as opposed to a Phaeton-type vehicle, which would be priced tens of thousands of dollars above its nearest branded vehicle, ie Passat > Phaeton. We're talking a Lincoln flagship topping out at $65,000 with all options, which isn't much of a reach. MKR, assuming it proceeds as I anticipate, would probably be a head-on competitior to the CTS, albeit more dramatically styled. V8 may be part of the equation, unless the Twin Force really takes off. It would definitely be larger than a 3-Series, C-Class, or A4, which are really very small cars. Of course, Cadillacs and Lincolns have always been larger cars, so I don't neccesarily penalize Cadillac for making the CTS too big to truly dance toe-to-toe with the 3-Series. Lincoln will be spending plenty of time and effort hitting the heart of the luxury market, but it's nice to dream about the cars that made Lincoln famous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 Funny, I was really just thinking about this. I vote "C." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 Well, first off, GRWD is not Huntsman. Secondly, I think that no platform is capable of supporting the price and applications that people here fantasize about for GRWD. You want a platform that can support a $19k Mustang and a $70k Lincoln? Not a good idea folks. You'll either have a heavy and non-profit Mustang, or an unacceptably unluxurious $70k Lincoln. The amount of customization required to meet Mustang, Falcon, and Continental expectations will leave you with shared electronics and that's about it. No key systems from brakes to suspension to engines to transmissions could be shared among the Mustang, Falcon, and Continental. Eliminate the Continental from the mix and you have a lot of possibilities between the Mustang, Falcon, etc. Anything Lincoln does above the MKS must have a bare minimum of shared componentry with anything below the MKS. IMO the MKS is the upper limit for any low-end platform. -- Furthermore, since such a vehicle is not necessary for the profitability of either Lincoln or Volvo, I think Ford should spend much time building Lincoln and Volvo credentials in the mid price range (with the S80 and MKS) before venturing into a larger segment, in no small part because at that $60-$70k price point image is absolutely everything. It will be years before Cadillac can swim in that pool, let alone Lincoln. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bagrah01 Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 Furthermore, since such a vehicle is not necessary for the profitability of either Lincoln or Volvo, I think Ford should spend much time building Lincoln and Volvo credentials in the mid price range (with the S80 and MKS) before venturing into a larger segment, in no small part because at that $60-$70k price point image is absolutely everything. It will be years before Cadillac can swim in that pool, let alone Lincoln. Cadillac is already swimming in that pool. Please give credit where credit is due. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wescoent Posted December 30, 2007 Author Share Posted December 30, 2007 Cadillac is already swimming in that pool. Please give credit where credit is due. 60k-70k? With what... the STS-V, XLR, and XLR-V, all of which have been overwhelmingly rejected by the market, to the point where the STS is being dropped, and the XLR is being abandoned with no planned updates until 2013? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bagrah01 Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 60k-70k? With what... the STS-V, XLR, and XLR-V, all of which have been overwhelmingly rejected by the market, to the point where the STS is being dropped, and the XLR is being abandoned with no planned updates until 2013? So do they or do they not have respresentation in the 60-70K market? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wescoent Posted December 30, 2007 Author Share Posted December 30, 2007 So do they or do they not have respresentation in the 60-70K market? No credit is being given, any more than they got credit for the Allante, or VW gets for the Phaeton. They may be there, but they aren't in any way credible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bagrah01 Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 No credit is being given, any more than they got credit for the Allante, or VW gets for the Phaeton. They may be there, but they aren't in any way credible. Why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 Furthermore, since such a vehicle is not necessary for the profitability of either Lincoln or Volvo, I think Ford should spend much time building Lincoln and Volvo credentials in the mid price range (with the S80 and MKS) before venturing into a larger segment, in no small part because at that $60-$70k price point image is absolutely everything. It will be years before Cadillac can swim in that pool, let alone Lincoln. Thats along the lines of what I was saying, waiting until the rest of the lineup gets stronger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 Why? When asked if I can swim, I routinely say that I can avoid drowning. There's a difference between 'swimming' and 'keeping your head above water', and in Cadillac's case, it is doubtful that they are even doing that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 And, BTW, it's my metaphor, I can elaborate on it as I see fit. Cadillac is 'in' the $60-70k market, but I would hardly classify their efforts as 'swimming'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P71_CrownVic Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 (edited) No PROPER Lincoln flagship will be anything but RWD. If it's FWD/AWD...it is a rebadged Ford. Edited December 30, 2007 by P71_CrownVic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suv_guy_19 Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 No PROPER Lincoln flagship will be anything but RWD. If it's FWD/AWD...it is a rebadged Ford. So would you call the Audi A8 a proper flagship? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthewq4b Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 So would you call the Audi A8 a proper flagship? The A8 is a rear baised AWD. Not a FWD capable of AWD. Matthew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suv_guy_19 Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 The A8 is a rear baised AWD. Not a FWD capable of AWD. Matthew I believe its an even split on the A8. The S8 is rear biased. It doesn't really matter. Ford's system can send all of the power to either set of wheels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armadamaster Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 That body (arguably) on a revised Panther platform (undeniably). :shades: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueblood Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 I believe its an even split on the A8. The S8 is rear biased. It doesn't really matter. Ford's system can send all of the power to either set of wheels. Go look under the hood of one, the engine doesn't sit sideways.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 No PROPER Lincoln flagship will be anything but RWD. If it's FWD/AWD...it is a rebadged Ford. just like the Lincoln Town Car huh? :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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