pcsario Posted June 24, 2008 Share Posted June 24, 2008 LINK One bizarre fallout from the wild-ride shift in consumer tastes is a spate of new or soon-to-be-released models that were designed and developed under assumptions about the U.S. market that now are absolutely invalid. The result: a slew of white elephants designed when gasoline was $2 per gallon (or less) and Americans were still buying 800,000 F-Series pickups and everything else that looked big, sucked gas and telegraphed that you had arrived at that special entitlement heaven espoused by Rush Limbaugh and everyone else who insisted cheap energy and cheap mortgages are an American birthright. :reading: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted June 24, 2008 Share Posted June 24, 2008 Missing, of course, from the rant, is the mention that the '09 F150 will average a 1mpg improvement across the board. Can't say I agree with all the crap slung by that guy. Especially trashing the Accord for being big (as opposed to ugly). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted June 24, 2008 Share Posted June 24, 2008 For those of you who really need that SUV or F150, this is bargain bonanza time! Hurry in before stocks run out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted June 24, 2008 Share Posted June 24, 2008 1. Acura's already doing this better, and it can't sell it. 2. The terms "flagship" and "front-drive" still don't mix -- just ask Acura. 1. He's entitled to his opinion. Mine is that Acura have saddled their sleds with a ghastly grille — they all suck. The MK S makes their sedans look sad. 2. That's why the MK S comes with AWD. As Lincoln's current flagship, it does everything the Acura RL does, (a stock S has less power, but uses regular) for thousands less. 3. Yes the pickup market is going to get smaller, but there will still be a market for new, and those buyers will want value, and as a lot of the old fleet turnover will be Ford, offering a more efficient Ford replacement is probably more important than ever. Sure it cost a lot, but it also gives Ford an opportunity to really hack the weight out of the F-100, even to the point of it being noisier and cheaper, because the low NVH F-150 remains as an alternative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Reynolds Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 (edited) As someone mentioned down in the comments section, that article was DOA. The writer went on what appears to be an 'I know it all rant' about vehicles that he doesn't care much for, which is fine if you don't give a damn about credibility. My issues are: The Accord on that list. The X6, which BMW has announced recently will be followed up with a larger version in Frankfurt. Whining about the fuel economy of the Flex. Ignoring the reason why Ford went to all V8s, as if all engines in that configuration guzzle gas faster than Lindsay Lohan does booze What a waste of the internets. And speaking of the MKS we will see how it sells in comparison to the new RL. Edited June 25, 2008 by Michael Reynolds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extreme4x4 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 I find this obsession of "journalists," that the pickup truck is going to simply disappear, due to fuel prices.......... to be odd. I guess that nobody will ever build a house again. Nobody will ever go to the blue or orange big box, again. Nobody will ever landscape their yard, again. Nobody will ever go camping, boating, fishing, or hunting........... again. There will never be a need for the fullsize truck, again. This absolute, in reference to truck sales is ridiculous. Yes the market has contracted. If it drops 50%, that will still be 400-500,000 truck sales a year, for Ford alone. That is still a HUGE market. To ignore it, as if it were the relative you are ashamed of, would be the ultimate in stupidity. Kind of like this article. That article almost reads like a "journalistic" side of ml. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 I find this obsession of "journalists," that the pickup truck is going to simply disappear, due to fuel prices.......... to be odd. That article almost reads like a "journalistic" side of ml. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Whining about the fuel economy of the Flex. Let's see now, the 2008 Escape that still sells well since its considered CUV for the present times. The V6 Escape sits four, gets 19/24 fuel mileage, and has 200 hp. Now let's look at the new Flex. It has 263hp, gets 17/24 fuel mileage, sits seven with gobs of more room, and is considered gas pig? Verdict is Flex sits more, has more room, more power, and gets about same gas mileage as present Escape. Even the new 2009 Escape will only get 20/25mpg with 23 less hp. Flex looks like good deal to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackHorse Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 The result: a slew of white elephants designed when gasoline was $2 per gallon (or less) and Americans were still buying 800,000 F-Series pickups and everything else that looked big, sucked gas and telegraphed that you had arrived at that special entitlement heaven espoused by Rush Limbaugh and everyone else who insisted cheap energy and cheap mortgages are an American birthright. Nope, they aren't an American birthright. They are the birthright of every single human being on this planet. See I just happen to be one of those people that believes I shouldn't have to spend most of the years of my life slaving away in some job to earn a useless substance called money, most of which I have to give to some rich asshole just so I can have the right to have a home and a means to get around. What has happened to you slaves? Wake up! We are entitled to a life without having to be a slave to the system for it. The system that makes the rich richer and the poor poorer. If the system wants to tell me that I'm not entitled to a cheap mortgage and cheap energy than the system is about to be replaced! There was a time a in this country when the roof over your head and your means of getting around was up to no one but you. Now all of a sudden we are beholden to fork over more and more of our earnings to some other asshole for those things? I don't think so. If that's the world the powers that be think we should live in then I say it's high time we taught the powers that be a new lesson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armadamaster Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 (edited) 1. He's entitled to his opinion. Mine is that Acura have saddled their sleds with a ghastly grille — they all suck. The MK S makes their sedans look sad. Wrong, try again. The sweetness that is the exterior styling of the TL is it's own versus the MKTaurus who's styling screams "I couldn't get financing at the Lexus dealer". telegraphed that you had arrived at that special entitlement heaven espoused by Rush Limbaugh and everyone else who insisted cheap energy and cheap mortgages are an American birthright. Now that's a load of crap. For starters, that's not back when prices where "cheap", that's back when prices were NORMAL, what we are paying right now is not by any means NORMAL. Edited June 25, 2008 by Armada Master Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 The sweetness that is the exterior styling of the TL :hysterical: :hysterical: Sweetness? You are confused indeed. Sweetness. Acura? Sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 :hysterical: :hysterical: Sweetness? You are confused indeed. Sweetness. Acura? Sure. He obviously hasn't seen the spy shots of the '09 TL. I'm reserving judgment until it's completely revealed, but I'm not too hopeful given Honda's wonderful track record this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 He obviously hasn't seen the spy shots of the '09 TL. I just threw up a little bit in my mouth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mettech Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 He obviously hasn't seen the spy shots of the '09 TL. I'm reserving judgment until it's completely revealed, but I'm not too hopeful given Honda's wonderful track record this year. The general public will decide if the Honda is preferred over the domestics. And it appears that the current trend is in favor with Honda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 The general public will decide if the Honda is preferred over the domestics. And it appears that the current trend is in favor with Honda. Sort of. Honda has dominant players in a few key segments, but that's really it. Civic, Accord, CR-V. Go much beyond that and they are pretty much in the middle with everybody else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daryll40 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Nope, they aren't an American birthright. They are the birthright of every single human being on this planet. See I just happen to be one of those people that believes I shouldn't have to spend most of the years of my life slaving away in some job to earn a useless substance called money, most of which I have to give to some rich asshole just so I can have the right to have a home and a means to get around. What has happened to you slaves? Wake up! We are entitled to a life without having to be a slave to the system for it. The system that makes the rich richer and the poor poorer. If the system wants to tell me that I'm not entitled to a cheap mortgage and cheap energy than the system is about to be replaced! There was a time a in this country when the roof over your head and your means of getting around was up to no one but you. Now all of a sudden we are beholden to fork over more and more of our earnings to some other asshole for those things? I don't think so. If that's the world the powers that be think we should live in then I say it's high time we taught the powers that be a new lesson. The Bolsheviks said the same thing in 1917 and did what you suggested. How well did THAT turn out? Hmmm??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daryll40 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 (edited) Whining about the fuel economy of the Flex. Let's see now, the 2008 Escape that still sells well since its considered CUV for the present times. The V6 Escape sits four, gets 19/24 fuel mileage, and has 200 hp. Now let's look at the new Flex. It has 263hp, gets 17/24 fuel mileage, sits seven with gobs of more room, and is considered gas pig? Verdict is Flex sits more, has more room, more power, and gets about same gas mileage as present Escape. Even the new 2009 Escape will only get 20/25mpg with 23 less hp. Flex looks like good deal to me. You are TOTALLY TOTALLY TOTALLY missing the point. Yes, relative to other vehicles that SOLD WELL RECENTLY BEFORE THE GAS EXPLOSION, Flex has comparable fuel economy for it's size. THE POINT is that YET ANOTHER 17/24ish vehicle is NOT what the market needs and is NOT what's going to help Ford. What Ford needs is a Honda Fit, Honda Civic etc etc. Focus ain't bad but let me ask you this: If you were going to buy your kid a car to last 10 years, WHICH vehicle do you expect will generate more "dad, some light is orange on the dash" calls from junior in 7 years? The answer to that very question is why Honda/Toyota is strong and the US makers are weak in the small car department. Even if they get decent economy and look good new, the record for long term quality is abysmal. THAT is the essence of why the US makers are where they are versus where TOY/HON is. Edited June 25, 2008 by Daryll40 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 (edited) You are TOTALLY TOTALLY TOTALLY missing the point. Yes, relative to other vehicles that SOLD WELL RECENTLY, Flex has comparable fuel economy for it's size. THE POINT is that YET ANOTHER 17/24ish vehicle is NOT what the market needs and is NOT what's going to help Ford. What Ford needs is a Honda Fit, Honda Civic etc etc. Focus ain't bad but let me ask you this: If you were going to buy your kid a car to last 10 years, WHICH vehicle do you expect will generate more "dad, some light is orange on the dash" calls from junior in 7 years? The answer to that very question is why Honda/Toyota is strong and the US makers are weak in the small car department. Even if they get decent economy and look good new, the record for long term quality is abysmal. THAT is the essence of why the US makers are where they are versus where TOY/HON is. Ford needs new vehicles, period. The Flex is a new vehicle, and a darn good one at that. Why would you flat out IGNORE a large market segment just because it's not THE largest? That's like saying Ford should cancel the Mustang because it doesn't get 35 miles per gallon. It's ridiculous. And I don't know what rock you've been hiding under, but Ford IS developing a small car to counter the Honda Fit. Hello? Fiesta anyone? As for your assertion of the Focus's reliability, looking at cold hard data, it is every bit as reliable as the Accord and Corolla. Your statement about long term quality is patently false. I don't know how much faith you put in Consumer Reports, but the Focus has been on their Recommended list for years. Edited June 25, 2008 by NickF1011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inteller Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 I just threw up a little bit in my mouth. get a new quip....that one is overused and worn out. it was funny 2 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 get a new quip....that one is overused and worn out. it was funny 2 years ago. Oddly enough, the Acura TL looked good 2 years ago too. Yeesh...someone piss in your Wheaties this morning? (I know, tell me how old that one is.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daryll40 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Ford needs new vehicles, period. The Flex is a new vehicle, and a darn good one at that. Why would you flat out IGNORE a large market segment just because it's not THE largest? That's like saying Ford should cancel the Mustang because it doesn't get 35 miles per gallon. It's ridiculous. And I don't know what rock you've been hiding under, but Ford IS developing a small car to counter the Honda Fit. Hello? Fiesta anyone? As for your assertion of the Focus's reliability, looking at cold hard data, it is every bit as reliable as the Accord and Corolla. Your statement about long term quality is patently false. I don't know how much faith you put in Consumer Reports, but the Focus has been on their Recommended list for years. Triage. If someone in the waiting room's arm is almost cut off and hanging, you attend to that patient BEFORE attending to the guy with a bad hangnail. 17/24 is the hangnail and 33/45 is the arm. As to Consumer Reports, their "sound bite" says it all...same thing I said above about the warning light on the dash..."an 7 year old Honda has less problems than a 3 year old Ford". Yes, they said exactly that. Sure, perhaps some models (Focus?) are better than others. But most of us "average consumers" are tired of taking chances on small cars built by the big three that never, ever seem to have the quality and durability of those made by ToyHonNis. Things are better than the Pinto Vega years, but, again, if you were gonna buy a 10 year vehicle for someone who is not a "car person", would you buy the Focus or Civic? Yeah, I know....but the rest of us ALSO know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Triage. If someone in the waiting room's arm is almost cut off and hanging, you attend to that patient BEFORE attending to the guy with a bad hangnail. 17/24 is the hangnail and 33/45 is the arm. It's not as simple as you are making it out to be. It's not like Ford waves a magic wand and a new model appears. The Fiesta will be here as soon as it possibly can. It has been fast-tracked as quickly as it can be...unless of course you want Ford to return to the days of releasing vehicles like you describe below. The Flex was a much simpler proposition. They took an existing North American platform, modified it, and are assembling it in a plant that was already equipped to handle it. The Fiesta is an all-new platform, that was originally only developed for Europe, and there is nowhere currently available to build it in North America. If you can't see the differences between those scenarios, I can't help you. As to Consumer Reports, their "sound bite" says it all...same thing I said above about the warning light on the dash..."an 7 year old Honda has less problems than a 3 year old Ford". Yes, they said exactly that. Sure, perhaps some models (Focus?) are better than others. But most of us "average consumers" are tired of taking chances on small cars built by the big three that never, ever seem to have the quality and durability of those made by ToyHonNis. Things are better than the Pinto Vega years, but, again, if you were gonna buy a 10 year vehicle for someone who is not a "car person", would you buy the Focus or Civic? Yeah, I know....but the rest of us ALSO know. Well, it was the Focus we were talking about now, wasn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Nissan should not be included in any discussion of reliability. They are not reliable cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Nissan should not be included in any discussion of reliability. They are not reliable cars. I know a single anecdote doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things, but my Pathfinder has been almost trouble free since I've had it. Only big repair (besides usual wear and tear) was the exhaust manifold in '05, and the only unreliable part of the vehicle has been the mileage odometer. Of course, it's a '96. Those were different times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 I know a single anecdote doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things, but my Pathfinder has been almost trouble free since I've had it. Only big repair (besides usual wear and tear) was the exhaust manifold in '05, and the only unreliable part of the vehicle has been the mileage odometer. Of course, it's a '96. Those were different times. Well, my Mustang and Mazda6 have been pretty trouble free since owning them too. Doesn't really mean much.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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