2010 Fusion GT: 340hp EB V6

[wolfpack219]

Does anybody have any idea what kind of MPG these ecoboost engines would be capable of? Are they actually going to make a signifigant impact on consumers or simply add 1 or 2 MPG to the already low AVG's?

[Edstock]

How so? DI and turbos have ben around for a LONG time...

But using it with 6-speed or 7-speed (VW) transnissions with engine management for optimising low-speed torque, is a new application.

[theoldwizard]

How so? DI and turbos have been around for a LONG time...

Sure, I worked on DI gas in 1979. It was called PROCO then ! How many DI gas applications has Ford had since then ?

 

I also contributed a bit of software to the the original EEC-IV SVO Mustang. How many gas turbo applications has Ford done since then ? Those fancy Roush/Saleen low volume applications were all outsourced.

 

NO ONE WHO WORKED ON THOSE PROGRAMS IS LEFT. THEY ARE ALL GONE. THIS IS ALL NEW TO THOSE WHO ARE THERE NOW.

Edited July 8, 2008 by theoldwizard

[silvrsvt]

Does anybody have any idea what kind of MPG these ecoboost engines would be capable of? Are they actually going to make a signifigant impact on consumers or simply add 1 or 2 MPG to the already low AVG's?

 

 

Your missing the point...using the MKS as an example....the Ecoboost MKS will get the same or slightly MPG numbers as the current MKS, but will offer V8 performance with V6 MPG numbers.

[theoldwizard]

But using it with 6-speed or 7-speed (VW) transmissions with engine management for optimising low-speed torque, is a new application.

I assume you are referring to dual clutch PowerShift transmission. Getrag and Ford would be very upset with you calling them "VW" transmissions. Both companies have invested "millions and millions".

 

Actually, there is still only one PowerShift application that is a sure thing in NA, the Fiesta. This might have changed, but MKS, Taurus, Fusion, Flex, Edge, and even the future unibody Explorer will all likely use some variant of the 6 speed GM/Ford "joint venture" transmission.

Edited July 8, 2008 by theoldwizard

[theoldwizard]

Your missing the point...using the MKS as an example....the Ecoboost MKS will get the same or slightly MPG numbers as the current MKS, but will offer V8 performance with V6 MPG numbers.

Someone actually understands !

 

If Ford can pull this off, the other "high end" vehicle companies will have some new competition from Lincoln !

[Edstock]

IIRC, VW is Borg-Warner, Ford is Ford/Getrag, and IIRC, Chrysler is doing a Chrysler/Getrag. VW/B-W have increased to 7 speeds, but that might reach the point of diminishing returns.

[kenp77]

Someone actually understands !

 

If Ford can pull this off, the other "high end" vehicle companies will have some new competition from Lincoln !

Reading your posts is very enlightening and interesting if u had to make a guess how long would u think it will be before a new F-100 may come out with the EB engine and do u think ford can make the EB work with any reliability???? Thanx for all your info..

[theoldwizard]

Reading your posts is very enlightening and interesting if u had to make a guess how long would u think it will be before a new F-100 may come out with the EB engine and do u think ford can make the EB work with any reliability???? Thanx for all your info..

Thanks !

 

F-100 is a very new program, started after I left in Feb '07. If I had to guess, I would say that they are starting with the current Explorer chassis or at least will use it as the powertrain mule. Purely a guess, but I wouldn't except it to show up until 2012MY.

 

I said in other places that EcoBoost is a "bet the business" technology. How well it will works (i.e. will it really make the HP and MPG number that are being thrown around) and how reliable are major issues that I just can not comment on. I do know that the high pressure pump and the direct injectors are very expensive.

 

If other companies can make similar HP and MPG numbers without DI (or a lower cost DI), EcoBoost and Ford are in big trouble.

[RichardJensen]

My source says F100 greenlighted in Dec 2006.

[wescoent]

My source says F100 greenlighted in Dec 2006.

 

I've heard the same thing.

 

I've also heard elsewhere that the F-100 is the ongoing program from the late 1990's to redesign the Ranger, but kept getting pushed back.

[Fords#1Fan]

So what about the MKR being mentioned or is the just a typo?!?!?!

[theoldwizard]

My source says F100 greenlighted in Dec 2006.

Okay, I wasn't at the meeting.

 

What your insight as to when it will hit the streets ?

[rmc523]

"forthcoming Lincoln MKR"

 

when did Ford Green light the MKR???

 

I've noticed that as well. I believe they meant MKT, but I'm not sure.

[rmc523]

I found it interesting that even though SVT will be working on this Fusion, it'll be called a GT.

[wescoent]

So what about the MKR being mentioned or is the just a typo?!?!?!

 

MKR was greenlighted late last summer.

 

It will slot between the MKZ and MKS, and for lack of a better explanation, will be a Lincoln CTS. RWD/AWD, V6 engines, super-expressive style.

[Harley Lover]

EcoBoost is a major technology shift.

 

First you have to figure out how to stick another hole in the combustion chamber. When you have 4 valves and a spark plug there is just not much room left. Lots of work to do there and at the manufacturing end !

 

Second, where are you going to stick the bloody expensive high pressure pump ? You would like it somewhat protected in a front end crash. I don't know where is wound up. High pressure lines, regulators, brackets, turbo(s), intercooler, waste gates, etc, etc. Lots of "fiddly bits" that were not there before. It's all doable, given the resources and time.

 

Then, there is the software.

 

The V6 for the MKS had about a 1 year head start. It was going to be done using the "traditional" Ford development process. This is kind of like trying to get two 8 year olds to slow dance ("You mean I have to touch him/her ?"). Ford is the "system integrator" (to use the aerospace terminology). That means that Ford is responsible for all of the hardware (except the ECU with some software, the pump and injectors), brackets, plumbing, wiring and software, including integrating the software that the supplier provided (even though Ford had perfectly acceptable software in some cases) . The Ford Software Engineers knew what the Ford Calibrators wanted/expected but that doesn't mean that's what the supplier wanted to deliver.

 

Just as these things started to get worked out, management changed the rules.

 

For all future EcoBoost applications (I4 and non-MKS V6), Ford would be become a sub-supplier to Bosch. While Ford would be responsible for calibration/driveablity/emissions/OBD suddenly those folks lost all leverage. Only a few minor pieces of Ford software would be carried forward. Oh you don't like the way that we do things ? Write me a check.

 

So while the software engineers are modifying their code to "play nice" with someone else's system, they still have to maintain it to work with the traditional Ford systems for several more years.

 

Kind of like your company saying, "We are going to start buying some Mac's so make all of that custom software work on their OS, but still make certain it works with Windows XP, Vista and keep an eye on what Microsoft has up its sleeve a couple years down the road !"

 

Wizard, that's an incredible post, I quoted it in its entirety to praise it! Thank you for taking time to really spell things out for all of us.

 

One follow up question - as I read about the somewhat confused nature of this development beast, I am wondering who is in charge. Does powertrain development fall under Kuzak? I have had the impression that he had influence in selecting this direction (Ecoboost) for powertrains, but maybe I'm just misunderstanding who does what internally. The reason for asking - as an outsider, my impression of Kuzak is that he's a really good engineer who is also good at shepherding programs and people. That's why I'm curious about his level of oversight for this program.

Edited July 8, 2008 by Harley Lover

[02MustangGT]

When will the MKR start production? I can't imagine it being available before GRWD is ready, probably around 2013-2014. If it waits that long, I would say that it will not make it into production.

[wescoent]

When will the MKR start production? I can't imagine it being available before GRWD is ready, probably around 2013-2014. If it waits that long, I would say that it will not make it into production.

 

GRWD is still on track for MY2012, as far as I know.

 

My guess is model year 2012, maybe 2013. This is a critical car for Lincoln. Mullally knows it's RWD or go home, and the question was whether the MKS could generate some interest in the brand to precede the MKR... and it's clear that it has.

[mlhm5]

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/07/07/ford-wo...ost-stang-on-h/

 

If this vaporware car ever appears, it is dead on arrival in a world of $4+ gasoline heading who knows where.

 

Earth to Ford, the #1 thing on consumer's minds is fuel consumption, not performance. Here's a clue, people are flocking to 4 cyl. engines in droves.

 

Just look at your Focus sales. Marketing the 4 cyl Ecoboost would have been a far, far better idea, but that won't be here until MY 2011 and by then the competition will be a lot tougher and the choices will be between ICEs, hybrids PHEVs, BEVs and diesels for high mileage vehicles.

[NickF1011]

With the way the market is going today, Ford would be better off developing the fuel-saving EB engines than the high-output ones.

 

Of course, that would be the right thing to do. :rolleyes:

 

Well, what might be a "fuel-saving" engine in one vehicle, could still be a "high-output" engine for another. For example, the 3.5 EB could very well be tuned as a fuel-saving engine for the F-150...or it could be pretty darn potent performance engine if put into a Fusion. Only real differences would be in tuning....heck, even without any tuning differences, a "fuel efficient" turbo V6 from an F-150 would probably still make a Fusion haul ass.

[NickF1011]

If this vaporware car ever appears, it is dead on arrival in a world of $4+ gasoline heading who knows where.

 

Earth to Ford, the #1 thing on consumer's minds is fuel consumption, not performance. Here's a clue, people are flocking to 4 cyl. engines in droves.

 

Just look at your Focus sales. Marketing the 4 cyl Ecoboost would have been a far, far better idea, but that won't be here until MY 2011 and by then the competition will be a lot tougher and the choices will be between ICEs, hybrids PHEVs, BEVs and diesels for high mileage vehicles.

 

Earth to mlhm5:

 

SOME PEOPLE STILL WANT SPORTY CARS. Look at all those 4 cylinders BMW is selling these days.... :lol:

 

And umm...who the heck is to say the MKR can't be a fine driver's car AND still get moderately decent fuel economy?

 

Oh, and seriously???? You are comparing Focus buyers to those buying $40K+ Lincolns? Your justification for spewing out your crap about PHEVs and BEVs in every post you make gets more ridiculous every day.

[morgande]

If this vaporware car ever appears, it is dead on arrival in a world of $4+ gasoline heading who knows where.

 

Earth to Ford, the #1 thing on consumer's minds is fuel consumption, not performance. Here's a clue, people are flocking to 4 cyl. engines in droves.

 

Just look at your Focus sales. Marketing the 4 cyl Ecoboost would have been a far, far better idea, but that won't be here until MY 2011 and by then the competition will be a lot tougher and the choices will be between ICEs, hybrids PHEVs, BEVs and diesels for high mileage vehicles.

 

The key word for the day: balance

The Starwars "Force" needed a balance. Your daily diet needs it. Your exercise routine. And yes...car manufactures need it.

 

Yes it is true that $4 gas will have the mas market moving towards more fuel efficent models. But does that also mean that you abandon a segment of the market? Again...the key is balance.

 

If the Ford Fusion already comes in a 4 banger, and a hybrid is in the works, then why no a performance version? Is Ford gonna sell 340hp Fusions like hot cakes? No. But there is a market for this vehicle, and all performance vehicles. You can't abandon the market.

 

My only issue: 340hp in a RWD car with FWD bias? No amount of steering "enhancments" are gonna eliminate the torque steer in that thing. Its gonna have some. And its gonna understeer like crazy. Doesn't sound like a car that would be very fun to drive! If your gonna do a performance Fusion...do it RIGHT.

 

How about 35/65 RWD bias in a performance fusion instead?

[NickF1011]

My only issue: 340hp in a RWD car with FWD bias? No amount of steering "enhancments" are gonna eliminate the torque steer in that thing. Its gonna have some. And its gonna understeer like crazy. Doesn't sound like a car that would be very fun to drive! If your gonna do a performance Fusion...do it RIGHT.

 

How about 35/65 RWD bias in a performance fusion instead?

 

Does ANYONE here understand how Ford's AWD system really works? After seeing responses like this one about 60,000 times, I'm thinking obviously no one does.

 

The only "FWD-bias" the AWD system has is when it's under very light or no loads. If you hammer on the throttle, almost ALL of the power is going to be pushed to the REAR wheels, not the FRONT. Torque steer in these vehicles is basically non-existent.

 

The only question I have about that setup is whether or not the gearbox could reliably handle 340 HP burnouts all the time.

[mlhm5]

Earth to mlhm5:

 

SOME PEOPLE STILL WANT SPORTY CARS. Look at all those 4 cylinders BMW is selling these days.... :lol:

 

And umm...who the heck is to say the MKR can't be a fine driver's car AND still get moderately decent fuel economy?

 

Oh, and seriously???? You are comparing Focus buyers to those buying $40K+ Lincolns? Your justification for spewing out your crap about PHEVs and BEVs in every post you make gets more ridiculous every day.

 

It was cultural rigidity and weaponized ignorance that led Ford not to introduce the Euro designed Focus with the 1.6 TDCi and PowerShift 6 speed tranny in the USA.