Ford Flex - Counterpoint

[RichardJensen]

In fact, there is growing concern in Europe regarding these very low birthrates. So but me no buts about European family cars.

 

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/51329.php

[Extreme4x4]

I find the fact that P sees this as an opportunity to slam FMC............ odd at best. Really stretching is more like it.

 

When I first started my great quest to purchase my Superduty, I took my Tribute to our local Ford store (Steve Coury Ford)............ as they were the ones with the truck I wanted. We did not play the game............... we just gave the salesman all our info, and told him to call us if he could make us the deal we wanted. When he called back, he wasn't within $200 of where I wanted my payment, so I told him to forget it. It turns out that all they were offering me on my Tribute was $3300 (Payoff), when trade-in book, in good condition was $8600. I was annoyed, because he lied to me (said they would wholesale it off, when I knew they would stick a low mile, AWD, loaded Tribute on the lot............. and make a bunch of money on it).

 

We contacted another dealership, on the same truck. They offered us $8600 for our trade, but the deal still wasn't quite where we wanted it (we were in no hurry), so I started advertising my Tribute myself.I ended up selling it to the first person who looked at it, for $10,500.

 

The moral of this story................. at no time, while all this was going on, did I blame FMC, for Steve Coury Ford giving me a crappy offer on my trade. Had the deal been where I wanted it, with the second dealership, I would have been happy with the $8600 trade-in value. So, with selling it myself, I was able to put more money down on my Superduty.

 

All this "guy" had to do, was try another dealership. Chances are, he would have found a big difference. Frankly, this "guy" just seems kinda dumb to me (blaming Ford for the offer from the dealership).

[Deanh]

the quintessimal Dealer horror story....trade ins are a HUGE thorn, always will be, most think their trade is worth WAY more than true ACV.....values fluctuate significantly...and I cannot ever recall values of "largish" vehicles being hit THIS hard or the stupiddity of Prius's USED demanding asking prices OVER origional MSRP....KBB is but a guide which people seem to beleive is a bible...it most definitely IS NOT....don't beleive me ...call them ...see how many cars they have BOUGHT since their inception....any one guess???????......I'll leave that open ended....funnily enough, in 20 odd years not ONCE have I had a customer on the other side of the desk say " Sorry Dean, thats too much for my trade, we don't have a deal......."

[NickF1011]

Europeans and their families get along just fine and they don't buy any 17/24 mpg vehicles.

 

You might want to check again. It's not like every vehicle sold in Europe gets 30 miles combined milage. And as Richard pointed out (and for other reasons beyond family size), Americans often need larger vehicles than Europeans.

[mlhm5]

Europeans ain't having families.

 

Only Ireland has a higher birthrate than the US (@ 14.4/1000).

 

Check the CIA fact book for more info.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/th...book/index.html

 

Germany's birth rate is 8.2/1000, compared to 14.16/1000 in the US. Spain: 9.98. Demark: 10.91, Netherlands: 10.7, etc. Italy is 8.2, Austria 8.69, Switzerland 10.66,

 

With a birth rate that is almost half (57%) of the US birth rate, there is -considerably- lower demand for 'family' vehicles in Germany.

 

The SUV and CUV were never designed for most of the population of the USA. You seem to think that people buy SUVs because they have a large family. Boy are you mistaken.

 

"S.U.V.s tend to be bought by people who are insecure, vain, self-centered, and self-absorbed, who are frequently nervous about their marriages, and who lack confidence in their driving skills.

 

...Ford's S.U.V. designers took their cues from seeing "fashionably dressed women wearing hiking boots or even work boots while walking through expensive malls. "

[NickF1011]

The SUV and CUV were never designed for most of the population of the USA. You seem to think that people buy SUVs because they have a large family. Boy are you mistaken.

 

"S.U.V.s tend to be bought by people who are insecure, vain, self-centered, and self-absorbed, who are frequently nervous about their marriages, and who lack confidence in their driving skills.

 

...Ford's S.U.V. designers took their cues from seeing "fashionably dressed women wearing hiking boots or even work boots while walking through expensive malls. "

 

Ummm...I'm not exactly sure what point you were trying to make with that link....but what the heck does it have to do with Americans needing larger vehicles? We don't just WANT them...we NEED them. Are you going to put a family of 6 into a Mondeo? GOOD LUCK!

 

Let's not forget an American tradition: The Summer Vacation. Almost all American families take one of some sort. You are not going to get a week's worth of stuff plus your kids and your dog into a Passat.

 

Not to mention your article is using ridiculously outdated references. The SUV and CUV have evolved considerably. Seriously...the New Yorker?

[twintornados]

The guy has no reason to lie. He likes the Flex and I think he would have preferred his parents to buy one. But with Ford unwilling to make legitimate offers, no deal.

 

P...go sit in a corner (or a ) and figure out that it isn't Ford that is not willing to sell Flex....it is the dealer that was trying to rip off a hopefully unsuspecting customer that drove the guy to a Hyundai...

 

I find the fact that P sees this as an opportunity to slam FMC............ odd at best. Really stretching is more like it.

 

When I first started my great quest to purchase my Superduty, I took my Tribute to our local Ford store (Steve Coury Ford)............ as they were the ones with the truck I wanted. We did not play the game............... we just gave the salesman all our info, and told him to call us if he could make us the deal we wanted. When he called back, he wasn't within $200 of where I wanted my payment, so I told him to forget it. It turns out that all they were offering me on my Tribute was $3300 (Payoff), when trade-in book, in good condition was $8600. I was annoyed, because he lied to me (said they would wholesale it off, when I knew they would stick a low mile, AWD, loaded Tribute on the lot............. and make a bunch of money on it).

 

We contacted another dealership, on the same truck. They offered us $8600 for our trade, but the deal still wasn't quite where we wanted it (we were in no hurry), so I started advertising my Tribute myself.I ended up selling it to the first person who looked at it, for $10,500.

 

The moral of this story................. at no time, while all this was going on, did I blame FMC, for Steve Coury Ford giving me a crappy offer on my trade. Had the deal been where I wanted it, with the second dealership, I would have been happy with the $8600 trade-in value. So, with selling it myself, I was able to put more money down on my Superduty.

 

All this "guy" had to do, was try another dealership. Chances are, he would have found a big difference. Frankly, this "guy" just seems kinda dumb to me (blaming Ford for the offer from the dealership).

 

Good for you!!! I have always said, if you don't like the deal....walk away and find one that you do like....in the case of the guy that bought the Hyundai, he did what you did....except that you stuck to your guns and bought what you originally set out for and he settled for a differing brand.

[twintornados]

The SUV and CUV were never designed for most of the population of the USA. You seem to think that people buy SUVs because they have a large family. Boy are you mistaken.

 

"S.U.V.s tend to be bought by people who are insecure, vain, self-centered, and self-absorbed, who are frequently nervous about their marriages, and who lack confidence in their driving skills.

 

...Ford's S.U.V. designers took their cues from seeing "fashionably dressed women wearing hiking boots or even work boots while walking through expensive malls. "

The fact that you both A.) read the New Yorker, and B.) believe the tripe written there explains a lot about how you view things

[mlhm5]

Ummm...I'm not exactly sure what point you were trying to make with that link....but what the heck does it have to do with Americans needing larger vehicles? We don't just WANT them...we NEED them. Are you going to put a family of 6 into a Mondeo? GOOD LUCK!

 

Let's not forget an American tradition: The Summer Vacation. Almost all American families take one of some sort. You are not going to get a week's worth of stuff plus your kids and your dog into a Passat.

 

Not to mention your article is using ridiculously outdated references. The SUV and CUV have evolved considerably. Seriously...the New Yorker?

 

US families did quite well with the station wagon, or are you forgetting that? People do not have to buy SUVs or CUVs to transport their family since the average family size is 3.14 and probably shrinking.

[RichardJensen]

"S.U.V.s tend to be bought by people who are insecure, vain, self-centered, and self-absorbed, who are frequently nervous about their marriages, and who lack confidence in their driving skills.

Uh.... Someone's opinion is NOT valid support for YOUR opinion.

 

 

BTW, I'm glad to see that you completely skipped over the GIGANTIC difference in US/European family demographics in order to continue to insist that what works in Europe will work here.

 

AMERICAN FAMILIES ARE LARGER AND MORE COMMON THAN EUROPEAN FAMILIES, THEREFORE 'FAMILY VEHICLES' WILL BE MORE POPULAR IN THE US FULL STOP

[RichardJensen]

US families did quite well with the station wagon

Right. Why, when Chrysler launched the minivan, well, people just said, "no thanks, we're not interested" and doggone it, why they just kept buying station wagons, and that's why Chrysler's minivans are today regarded as the "Edsels" of the 80s.

[NickF1011]

US families did quite well with the station wagon, or are you forgetting that? People do not have to buy SUVs or CUVs to transport their family since the average family size is 3.14 and probably shrinking.

 

The station wagon was barely adequate for them, and it's certainly a stretch to say they "did quite well" with it. Americans demanded, and have since received, more. There is no logical reason for them to suddenly demand a vehicle that doesn't meet their needs.

[mlhm5]

Uh.... Someone's opinion is NOT valid support for YOUR opinion.

 

 

BTW, I'm glad to see that you completely skipped over the GIGANTIC difference in US/European family demographics in order to continue to insist that what works in Europe will work here.

 

AMERICAN FAMILIES ARE LARGER AND MORE COMMON THAN EUROPEAN FAMILIES, THEREFORE 'FAMILY VEHICLES' WILL BE MORE POPULAR IN THE US FULL STOP

 

Sure it's someone's opinion, but someone who most likely knows a lot more about the subject than posters on this board.

 

""High and Mighty"—perhaps the most important book about Detroit since Ralph Nader's "Unsafe at Any Speed"

 

Secondly, in the USA the groups with the highest birth and fertility rates are groups that usually rank in the lowest incomes percentiles, so they and the average family incomer of $44K are not buying any $30+K SUV/CUV to transport their kids.

[Michael Reynolds]

The station wagon was barely adequate for them, and it's certainly a stretch to say they "did quite well" with it. Americans demanded, and have since received, more. There is no logical reason for them to suddenly demand a vehicle that doesn't meet their needs.

 

Well on top of that a station wagon is essentially a sedan with a roof with some glass around it. The station wagon did not address the growing needs to accommodate more people (and no that little fold out seat in the rear does not count).

 

Try again ML.

[RichardJensen]

Sure it's someone's opinion, but someone who most likely knows a lot more about the subject than posters on this board.

 

Secondly, in the USA the groups with the highest birth and fertility rates are groups that usually rank in the lowest incomes percentiles, so they and the average family incomer of $44K are not buying any $30+K SUV/CUV to transport their kids.

1: It's still invalid as a support for any of your assertions

 

2: Where is your proof for any of this? ANY OF THIS? Does it exist at all?

 

Furthermore, how many households are there in the US? I'll answer that for you:

 

105,480,101 (2000 Census).

 

How many Flexes is Ford planning to sell annually? I'll answer that one for you TOO:

 

70,000

 

Percentage of households that will need to buy a Flex to meet Ford's expectations:

 

.06%

 

Let me know if I need to make this any clearer for you.

[goingincirclez]

Well on top of that a station wagon is essentially a sedan with a roof with some glass around it. The station wagon did not address the growing needs to accommodate more people (and no that little fold out seat in the rear does not count).

 

Take away the typical SUV's ground clearance (or, if you're so inclined, make a "low rider" out of it), and what do you have?

[RichardJensen]

Take away the typical SUV's ground clearance (or, if you're so inclined, make a "low rider" out of it), and what do you have?

A tall station wagon with more space, and usually, a forward facing third row.

[Ralph Greene]

Why not just get a pin number from this site, and order one at X plan price? Why go thru the haggle process? Sell your trade in yourself for whatever you can get. I would never walk into a dealership to trade vehicles.

[goingincirclez]

A tall station wagon with more space, and usually, a forward facing third row.

 

Exactly. It's just a wagon. The third row is a matter of fads, semantics, and/or regulations (I have seen plenty of wagons with forward-facing third rows - they DID exist). "More space" comes from the evolution of packaging and design.

 

Tall yes, but IMHO that has just as many cons as pros so it's a tradeoff.

 

 

http://images.sporttruck.com/eventcoverage...lowered_suv.jpg

 

[NickF1011]

Why not just get a pin number from this site, and order one at X plan price? Why go thru the haggle process? Sell your trade in yourself for whatever you can get. I would never walk into a dealership to trade vehicles.

 

Most people are just too lazy and enjoy the "convenience" of being ripped off on their trade-in at the same place they are being ripped off for their new vehicle.

[Ralph Greene]

Most people are just too lazy and enjoy the "convenience" of being ripped off on their trade-in at the same place they are being ripped off for their new vehicle.

 

That must be the reason. It's just so easy to save yourself thousands with just a little effort.

Edited July 11, 2008 by Ralph Greene

[RichardJensen]

The third row is a matter of fads, semantics, and/or regulations (I have seen plenty of wagons with forward-facing third rows - they DID exist).

I wouldn't go comparing the 3rd row of any mid-fullsize SUV with the 3rd rows that were included in station wagons...

 

Because the SUV package has considerably more interior space than conventional station wagons, I would expect the SUV-esque station wagon (Flex, Acadia, etc) to continue to dominate over conventional station wagons due to the practicality of extra space at a tradeoff of a few hundred a year in extra gas.

 

Because it's always about tradeoffs.

[Michael Reynolds]

Exactly. It's just a wagon. The third row is a matter of fads, semantics, and/or regulations (I have seen plenty of wagons with forward-facing third rows - they DID exist). "More space" comes from the evolution of packaging and design.

 

Tall yes, but IMHO that has just as many cons as pros so it's a tradeoff.

 

Which wagons came from the factory that way? Would I be able to fit all of 6'3" back there?

 

Missing the point entirely.......

[goingincirclez]

Which wagons came from the factory that way? Would I be able to fit all of 6'3" back there?

 

Missing the point entirely.......

 

*sigh* let me try another tack:

 

1:

 

2:

 

3:

 

 

Alright. In the most simplistic of terms, #1 was stretched up on a higher frame in 1984, which begat #2. Eventually people got tired and ashamed of #2, so it was ruggedized and dressed up into #3 (OK so the Caravan didn't directly turn into the Durango, but look at the space/style and you get my point. The GM minivans DID morph into the Rendesvous / Aztek though).

 

#2 has more space than #1, because the lower floor and higher roof allows more breathing room. Just like a crowded city, you grow up (skyscraper) rather than out to claim usable space. I'll grant you that.

 

But essentially, all an SUV has ever been, is the same old station wagon, REPACKAGED into something "new" and "faddish". It may have slightly more room, because it IS slightly wider, and has a taller BODY. But the same could be done to a station wagon:

 

 

 

Honestly, it's not like people suddenly became 6'3" in the 90's. Not everybody NEEDS the SUV-style package and its inherent inefficiencies. It's all just a marketing gimmick.

 

 

Besides, in your original statement you said a wagon was just "a sedan with a roof (I think you mean "longer roof") and more glass". I was illustrating that there are TONS of modernized station wagons out there... the automakers just decided to call them SUVs at the time.

 

You can't really draw direct comparisons because the vehicles themselves have all evolved in different ways, but hopefully you see my point. I bed you can fit more people AND stuff in an old Crown Vic wagon than you can in the Edge. But the TX trumps them both. Yet they are all basically WAGONS designed and tailored to different needs.

 

And today, now that "S"UV is a bad word, yesterday's "stationwagon" is today's "C"UV. It's the same old shell game.

Edited July 11, 2008 by goingincirclez

[P71_CrownVic]

So what of those who are now driving fullsize SUVs that get 12/17 mpg? Are they expected to euthanize a couple of their children when they need a new vehicle so they can fit into a Jetta diesel comfortably?

 

I think that is a great idea. Less people in the world (the root cause of almost every single problem in the world today), and more oil for me!!

 

Oh and there is NOTHING special about the Flex's fuel economy.It is better than the V8 SUVs (duh it has a V6), but is not something to write home about.