Ford's Accelerated Product Plan

[guyatherton]

Take a look at the specs on the S-Max. It does not seat two more 'people' as such. It seats two more kids. 3rd row legroom in the S-Max is atrocious. It is, essentially, a truncated Galaxy.

 

In other words: You could add two more seats to the Edge and they'd be functionally equivalent. The Edge has room for two occasional use seats of the sort seen in the S-Max.

 

In most seven seaters the rear seats are really only child friendly so the S-Max is no worse. The S-Max would be a good fit because you have the option of a relatively fuel efficient seven seater (2-4 adults plus children) or your only other choice is the Flex (less efficient and more expensive I expect) and the Expedition. Edge is fine but if you need those extra seats (even occassionally) then it loses out.

[RichardJensen]

Quality isn`t really just or even mainly reliability. Quality is fit and finish and the Mini definetely deserves its alledgely high price. It has quality materials and is well put together. That is the reason why Ford of Europe products in part cost more than NA. The quality of plastics and the fit is just better in Europe than America because consumers there care about those things more. Just the way it is.

There are other factors at play, though. VW has atrocious reliability, and yet they are the biggest mfr. in Europe, and their market share hasn't changed much despite building extremely buggy automobiles. Don't get me wrong, VW cars are solid, and their powertrains are pretty reliable, but if it involves soldering, it's probably going to break. At least twice.

 

It is my belief that the US market defines 'quality' in a manner very different from Europe.

 

It's possible that the typical EU customer just expects his vehicle to spend more time in the garage, I don't know.

 

But what I do know is that VW paid a price for buggy glitchy cars in the US, and so far they haven't really in Europe, and I think that speaks to a world of different expectations between the two markets.

[Surgen]

In most seven seaters the rear seats are really only child friendly so the S-Max is no worse. The S-Max would be a good fit because you have the option of a relatively fuel efficient seven seater (2-4 adults plus children) or your only other choice is the Flex (less efficient and more expensive I expect) and the Expedition. Edge is fine but if you need those extra seats (even occassionally) then it loses out.

 

The rear seats in my Taurus X are adult friendly, and the Expedition/Navigator seats are reasonable as well. And the 'child-friendly' ones are really only good for pre-teens.

[Deanh]

Quality isn`t really just or even mainly reliability. Quality is fit and finish and the Mini definetely deserves its alledgely high price. It has quality materials and is well put together. That is the reason why Ford of Europe products in part cost more than NA. The quality of plastics and the fit is just better in Europe than America because consumers there care about those things more. Just the way it is.

I own a Cooper and agree...aside from the perpetyual sunroof rattle the fit and finish and materials are first rate...however...Fords Flex IS right up there in every measure....

[RichardJensen]

In most seven seaters the rear seats are really only child friendly so the S-Max is no worse. The S-Max would be a good fit because you have the option of a relatively fuel efficient seven seater (2-4 adults plus children) or your only other choice is the Flex (less efficient and more expensive I expect) and the Expedition. Edge is fine but if you need those extra seats (even occassionally) then it loses out.

Not necessarily. If memory serves, the S-Max shorts rear seat passengers by about 10" vertically vs. the Flex & Taurus X. Headroom is no treat either. Galaxy 3rd row is a better comparison to the Flex & Taurus X.

 

Also, and this is pure speculation based on certain known facts, Ford has a 'cookbook' for NA products containing certain expected measurements all new cars must meet, things like ground clearance, passenger room, etc.

 

It's my belief that the S-Max's jump seats fail the minimum standards for the Ford cookbook. Similarly, Ford's 3rd row in the Flex and Taurus X contains only 2 seat belts, despite being about as wide as the 3 passenger 3rd rows in the Pilot & Acadia.

 

Finally, the Flex carries the same EPA rating as the Edge in FWD mode and since it weighs about as much as the S-Max, it probably gets the same fuel economy, neglecting, of course, the fact that the S-Max gas engine is rather short on power for this segment stateside.

Edited July 25, 2008 by RichardJensen

[sonofford]

There are other factors at play, though. VW has atrocious reliability, and yet they are the biggest mfr. in Europe, and their market share hasn't changed much despite building extremely buggy automobiles. Don't get me wrong, VW cars are solid, and their powertrains are pretty reliable, but if it involves soldering, it's probably going to break. At least twice.

 

It is my belief that the US market defines 'quality' in a manner very different from Europe.

 

It's possible that the typical EU customer just expects his vehicle to spend more time in the garage, I don't know.

 

But what I do know is that VW paid a price for buggy glitchy cars in the US, and so far they haven't really in Europe, and I think that speaks to a world of different expectations between the two markets.

 

VW cars have all kinds of problems, not just "soldering". The electricals are notoriously bad, rattles and squeaks develop very quickly, belts break, ignition coils go bad ... and that's in the first two or three years of ownership. I have been there, believe me.

 

Perhaps because Europeans generally don't rely on cars in the same way that most Americans do, mechanical reliability is less of a factor. Also, many European professionals get a car as part of their compensation package. Since they don't actually own the vehicles, they may not care as much about quality/reliability. It's not their money.

 

Finally, VW has a different brand image in Europe. It's considered a desirable car, more prestigious than some other Euro makes. In the US, VW's long been associated with cheap, reliable (!) transportation, which is one of many reasons their performance in the US market has not been so great.

[RichardJensen]

"soldering" was my too cute reference to anything that involves an electrical current from headlights to OBD to power windows to stereos to trunk release solenoids to coils to heated seats.

 

I think CU needs to add an extra layer of bad to their ratings system for VW electrical systems. Perhaps a skull and cross bones, or an angry face, or something, as VAG electricals are simply the worst in the US right now, bar none.

 

I'd not noticed issues with squeaks and rattles though... At least not in the VW/Audi products of friends.

Edited July 25, 2008 by RichardJensen

[Ford Jellymoulds]

Quality isn`t really just or even mainly reliability. Quality is fit and finish and the Mini definetely deserves its alledgely high price. It has quality materials and is well put together. That is the reason why Ford of Europe products in part cost more than NA. The quality of plastics and the fit is just better in Europe than America because consumers there care about those things more. Just the way it is.

 

Gotta to say yours post is nearest to the truth on Europe, l live in NW Surrey which has some of the most expensive real estate in the world, and when you drive past some of their big quality homes you can't help but notice only three car types are sitting on most driveways at the moment, they are mostly Beamers, Mercedes Benz or a BMW Mini and not a lot else, you are right dead the Mini is a top quality car that a lot of millionaires want to own & drive despite the relatively very cheap price to them.

 

I can't say that l like them myself though l owned a 1959 Mini it was my first car l hated it, it was very unreliable you struggled to fit more than a loaf of bread in the boot (Is it trunk in the US) It was a fun car to drive, l loved the iconic classic styling but l was glad to get rid of it at the time, l brought a Classic Mk1 Escort next it never let me down so l got hooked on Fords for life from then onwards.

[Devodev]

Perhaps because Europeans generally don't rely on cars in the same way that most Americans do, mechanical reliability is less of a factor. Also, many European professionals get a car as part of their compensation package. Since they don't actually own the vehicles, they may not care as much about quality/reliability. It's not their money.

 

Maybe it's because when my van needs work, I have to hope to catch a shuttle to work (no loaner...not like I have a Caddy or something I guess) or have someone drive/pick me up to go back and forth to the shop. Perhaps over there, you can still actually use mass transit to get around where you have to go and not need a wing-man to go with you and pick up your ride from the shop! When we have problems with a car, the minor things can be a huge inconvenience.

Maybe it's just a MI thing as well...

[sonofford]

I think CU needs to add an extra layer of bad to their ratings system for VW electrical systems. Perhaps a skull and cross bones, or an angry face, or something, as VAG electricals are simply the worst in the US right now, bar none.

 

I'd not noticed issues with squeaks and rattles though... At least not in the VW/Audi products of friends.

 

When it comes to electronics, I think the Wolfsburg gang seems to be channeling the spirit of British Leyland. The problems are only compounded by poor dealer service.

[RichardJensen]

I think the Wolfsburg gang seems to be channeling the spirit of British Leyland.

Yeah. Except the British had a sense of humor about it.

[silvrsvt]

Agreed. I can't believe Mustang fans of all people, are against cars that "are great for one person, but you sure as hell can't fit the wife and kids into them". And yes, don't even try to pretend everyone buys a Mustang "just for the weekends" and always travels alone.

 

 

There you go putting words into my mouth again...never did I say that commuter car is a bad thing, but you have to be crazy to think that people are going to be trading say an Expedition for a Fiesta for every day use. The vast majority of families have at least 2 cars, and one of them has to be able to fit the family in it and the other car would take the primary breadwinner to and from work.

 

As for the Mustang, its a secondary or even Third car for Families. I have one, and I'm single and to be honest with you I'm looking forward to the day that I get a car with 4 doors on it because it is so impracticable at times, but it sure does make up for it by being fun to drive...so I deal with it and borrow the Ranger from my old man when I need to move or pick up something big...

Edited July 25, 2008 by silvrsvt

[Loyalbutconcerned]

BNN reported that 3 of the 6 new vehicles are:

 

Fiesta

Focus

S-Max

 

Can anyone confirm the S-Max. BNN is a business network that knows nothing about the Auto industry. But they must have read it somewhere.

 

Add the C-Max and Kuga and possibly the Ka.

[guyatherton]

There are other factors at play, though. VW has atrocious reliability, and yet they are the biggest mfr. in Europe, and their market share hasn't changed much despite building extremely buggy automobiles. Don't get me wrong, VW cars are solid, and their powertrains are pretty reliable, but if it involves soldering, it's probably going to break. At least twice.

 

It is my belief that the US market defines 'quality' in a manner very different from Europe.

 

It's possible that the typical EU customer just expects his vehicle to spend more time in the garage, I don't know.

 

But what I do know is that VW paid a price for buggy glitchy cars in the US, and so far they haven't really in Europe, and I think that speaks to a world of different expectations between the two markets.

 

I agree VW has bad reliability in the US but in Europe their rankings are better (about average). There image would take a hit if reliability stayed low for a prolonged period - much like the Big3's image took a hit because of the 70'2 and 80's. I also don`t think having VW's built in Mexico helps them quality wise.

[MarkFive]

I agree VW has bad reliability in the US but in Europe their rankings are better (about average). There image would take a hit if reliability stayed low for a prolonged period - much like the Big3's image took a hit because of the 70'2 and 80's. I also don`t think having VW's built in Mexico helps them quality wise.

 

I was once working with a European line of products. They were made out of high-tech materials and were advertised as "virtually scratchproof."

 

When you advertise something like that in North America, it doesn't go far. We had significant warranty repairs because customers were scratching them on common surfaces (granite countertops being one of them). In situations like this, customers in NA feel that the manufacturer has misrepresented the product and therfore must stand behind it 100% and do repairs free of charge. We honoured these under warranty.

 

In Europe, customers have a different attitude. More often than not they feel they issue lies with how they treated the product and are far less inclined to believe that repairs be done under warranty. We consistently had arguments with the supplier of this item due to warranty repairs. They were much higher than Europe yet they had much higher sales than we did.

 

In addition, Europeans change their cars less frequently than those in NA. They are more inclined to care for what they recently bought for several years than to trade it in a few years down the road. Most expensive items are bought to keep for a much longer time than we do.

Edited July 26, 2008 by MarkFive

[RichardJensen]

I agree VW has bad reliability in the US

 

I also don`t think having VW's built in Mexico helps them quality wise.

1) Are you saying that VAG (Audis are also problematic) deliberately sends crap to the US? There are so few differences between the US & EU VWs that I find it incredibly hard to believe that the rash of component failures in BASIC systems like lighting and ignition in US VWs is not ALSO an issue in Europe.

 

2) Some of Ford's best quality products are built in Mexico. Don't look down your nose at production done in poor countries. That's what got the US in trouble with Japan. And it's how Japan got rich.

[guyatherton]

1) Are you saying that VAG (Audis are also problematic) deliberately sends crap to the US? There are so few differences between the US & EU VWs that I find it incredibly hard to believe that the rash of component failures in BASIC systems like lighting and ignition in US VWs is not ALSO an issue in Europe.

 

2) Some of Ford's best quality products are built in Mexico. Don't look down your nose at production done in poor countries. That's what got the US in trouble with Japan. And it's how Japan got rich.

 

I am not saying VW sends crap to the US maybe as the previous poster said the attitude of US consumers is to moan more when there is no real cause to (US known for its tendency to sue for no cause - hot coffee at MacDonalds for example!) and also that US consumers do not look after their cars as much. That is probably why Toyota hardly change the Corolla from generation to generation because once it works they don`t want to risk sending out something new which is likely to have a higher failure rate. In Europe cars are revised often - think BMW 3 series and with each generation you have first year issues. Toyota plays it safe by offering essentially the same product for decades. The Corolla is still on disc drums (unheard of in Europe).

 

So the bottom line is cultural differences, so maybe European Ford products won`t sell well in the US. The US consumer will miss out.

[RichardJensen]

the attitude of US consumers is to moan more when there is no real cause to (US known for its tendency to sue for no cause - hot coffee at MacDonalds for example!)

Lovely attitude. You really should apply such stereotypes to your own people as well.

 

1) I've seen the issues with friends' VAG products first hand. They're not made up. Blaming the owner is darn stupid in a country where you can't rely on jingoistic snobbery to back you up.

 

2) That coffee was 180 degrees and caused 3rd degree burns on the woman in that accident.

 

Here's a suggestion: Stop generalizing.

[RichardJensen]

I am not saying VW sends crap to the US

Fine, I will. VW sends crap to the US.

 

And like I said before, get your nose out of the air. The US was importing European cars long before they were importing Japanese cars, and guess which car companies figured out what works in this market?

[jpd80]

“We are transforming Ford’s North American manufacturing operations into a lean, flexible system that is fully competitive with the best in the business,” said Mark Fields, Ford president of The Americas. “We remain committed to matching our capacity with real consumer demand, and we are equipping nearly all of our assembly plants with flexible body shops, ensuring we can respond quickly to changing consumer tastes.

“In addition, we are adding four-cylinder engine capacity to meet the growing consumer demand, while expanding production of our new EcoBoost engines, six-speed transmissions and other fuel-saving technologies,” Fields said.

 

Interesting to note that nearly all assembly plants will have flexible body shops.

Is this one step before divesting a couple of plants - will Volvo and Mazda get their own plants?

[ANTAUS]

Wow, I had 12 friends who had VW's, from the 98-2005 years. They will never buy another one again. I can't believe the countless issues all of them had. Not LITTLE issues, but major ones. We are talking KIA like quality. Yes, the materials and presentation were great..THE First few months. Then it became a constant one weekend a month, where most of them were at the dealership getting something repaired.

 

It doesnt matter if the VW's, are made in Mexico.... As we know the Mexican built Fusion is tops on it's segment in reliability. It's not the customer, most of them were "little old ladies", or single chicks, that mostly owned them. Only one had a kid, so it's not a "Oh but the kids were beating on the car" type deal. They were just HORRIBLE. I've never seen such crap in my life. When I see them on the street, I just feel REALLY bad for the drivers, and at the same time I wonder, "Do you have friends? Did anyone warn you before you bought that POS?" I DID warn people, then turned my back when they needed help at the dealership. "You asked to get screwed, I hope they dont use Vaseline on you"...senario.

 

But some people dont know better, then they buy Kias, Hummers and all that...

[jpd80]

At least when you by a Kia, you don't expect VW quality - if you get my drift.

[F250]

Interesting to note that nearly all assembly plants will have flexible body shops.

Is this one step before divesting a couple of plants - will Volvo and Mazda get their own plants?

 

Don't mean a thing. Hell. I thought most plants already had flex body shops by now since Ford started the whole thing years ago! Here's Fileds talking like it's a new idea. NAP became the first flex plant in 2003 and they closed it without utilizing the capability. DTP was built from the ground up as a flex plant and we haven't seen anything but F-150s roll out of there since they started in 2004. Old final assembly plants used to build cars and trucks down the same line now we have modern flex plants that don't.

[guyatherton]

Lovely attitude. You really should apply such stereotypes to your own people as well.

 

1) I've seen the issues with friends' VAG products first hand. They're not made up. Blaming the owner is darn stupid in a country where you can't rely on jingoistic snobbery to back you up.

 

2) That coffee was 180 degrees and caused 3rd degree burns on the woman in that accident.

 

Here's a suggestion: Stop generalizing.

 

a) I live here in North Carolina - American enough for you?

B) the woman had put the hot coffee (any other kind back then, before iced coffee became popular0 between her legs as she drove - she should take personal responsibility for being so stupid

c) I am not generalising - to say all VW's in the US are crap is generalising.

 

VW's have issues in Europe but their reputation would suffer (like the big 3's have) if they kept making cxrap. Why is it that Toyota has less than 5% market share in the UK. People there value quality, design and riving fun - hence Vauxhall, Ford and the German makes are popular and rightly so.

 

Lets get back tot he matter in hand - Ford of Europe products are on the whole good and there will be some market for them. For those people who just want a car to go A to B and do not care for style, design innovation or fun then there are Toyotas to buy.

[guyatherton]

Wow, I had 12 friends who had VW's, from the 98-2005 years. They will never buy another one again. I can't believe the countless issues all of them had. Not LITTLE issues, but major ones. We are talking KIA like quality. Yes, the materials and presentation were great..THE First few months. Then it became a constant one weekend a month, where most of them were at the dealership getting something repaired.

 

It doesnt matter if the VW's, are made in Mexico.... As we know the Mexican built Fusion is tops on it's segment in reliability. It's not the customer, most of them were "little old ladies", or single chicks, that mostly owned them. Only one had a kid, so it's not a "Oh but the kids were beating on the car" type deal. They were just HORRIBLE. I've never seen such crap in my life. When I see them on the street, I just feel REALLY bad for the drivers, and at the same time I wonder, "Do you have friends? Did anyone warn you before you bought that POS?" I DID warn people, then turned my back when they needed help at the dealership. "You asked to get screwed, I hope they dont use Vaseline on you"...senario.

 

But some people dont know better, then they buy Kias, Hummers and all that...

 

I agree during the time period you mention reliability (not quality in terms of fit or finish) were not the best. After 2005 seems to have improved.

Anyway this is not a VW forum and I don`t own a VW. The main point was that European products (in this case Ford) are good and worthy of import to the US.

Edited July 27, 2008 by guyatherton