chiefstang Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 (edited) deleted I got ten bucks that says you've never driven one at all, but know for a fact it drives like an Explorer. Your statement makes your knee jerk conclusion stick out like a horn on your forehead. Edited October 27, 2008 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 (edited) deleted Most of us do not believe that there is a conspiracy theory. Rather we believe that there is either a prejudice, or a certain amount of mental laziness on the part of most reporters. There is certainly no conspiracy theory. Why seek for complicated solutions when human nature will suffice: Who holds auto writers responsible for the opinions they publish? Who calls them on the carpet for what they say? Answer: No one, really. Therefore, there is an environment ripe for the breeding of self-sustaining prejudices. I mean, extended comparison follows, but if you were a member of the KKK and all you did was read literature by other KKK members that talked about how blacks were an inferior species, what would you do? If you believed it, it would color the way you saw black people. You would do your utmost to explain away any successes, and you would play up any failures you saw, far beyond rational limits. ---- Extended illustration, yes? But that far off base? Not really. Go read the reviews of the Ford Flex. Generally positive, but tell me how many start off with a negative opening paragraph or two--a sort of "Ford has really screwed up lately, but this is okay" sort of thing. Now, go read reviews of any Lincoln product... Same story. Ditto any Mercury product. Now, go read the reviews of ANY 'preferred' import (i.e. Toyota, Honda, BMW). Note how LITTLE of their introductory paragraphs are devoted to the OVERALL recent history of the brand. Only the domestics are subjected to that sort of flagellatory and irrelevant foreword. And that, in small, is the problem that many of us here have with auto writers: They exist in an environment that nurtures their prejudices and fosters intellectual laziness. Edited October 27, 2008 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiefstang Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 Most of us do not believe that there is a conspiracy theory. Rather we believe that there is either a prejudice, or a certain amount of mental laziness on the part of most reporters. There is certainly no conspiracy theory. Why seek for complicated solutions when human nature will suffice: Who holds auto writers responsible for the opinions they publish? Who calls them on the carpet for what they say? Answer: No one, really. Therefore, there is an environment ripe for the breeding of self-sustaining prejudices. I mean, extended comparison follows, but if you were a member of the KKK and all you did was read literature by other KKK members that talked about how blacks were an inferior species, what would you do? If you believed it, it would color the way you saw black people. You would do your utmost to explain away any successes, and you would play up any failures you saw, far beyond rational limits. ---- Extended illustration, yes? But that far off base? Not really. Go read the reviews of the Ford Flex. Generally positive, but tell me how many start off with a negative opening paragraph or two--a sort of "Ford has really screwed up lately, but this is okay" sort of thing. Now, go read reviews of any Lincoln product... Same story. Ditto any Mercury product. Now, go read the reviews of ANY 'preferred' import (i.e. Toyota, Honda, BMW). Note how LITTLE of their introductory paragraphs are devoted to the OVERALL recent history of the brand. Only the domestics are subjected to that sort of flagellatory and irrelevant foreword. And that, in small, is the problem that many of us here have with auto writers: They exist in an environment that nurtures their prejudices and fosters intellectual laziness. Ohh... Snap... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 (edited) What follows is a prime example. James Healey is one of the reviewers I would class as being isolated from contrary opinion. Note the opening paragraphs of his review of the Toyota Corolla: The radical thing about Toyota's redesign of its strong-selling Corolla compact sedan is how little the big Japanese automaker advanced the car — particularly in contrast with Honda's heroic makeover of the Civic, Corolla's main rival. Honda offers an optional five-speed automatic transmission across the board. Toyota stayed with a four-speed, reserving a five-speed for the optional engine. Honda penned a dramatic, futuristic look; Toyota kept mainstream, Camry-esque styling. Honda reconfigured the interior to match the promise of the sheet metal. Toyota's interior also is a good match with the outside, which means it's a bit plain. Now note the opening paragraphs of his review of the '07 MKZ: KNOXVILLE, Tenn. — If you believe the guiding principle espoused by Carlos Ghosn, the successful CEO of Nissan and Renault — that there's no problem at a car company that good products can't solve — then you can consider the Lincoln MKZ a problem-solver. Lincoln, a Ford Motor (F) luxury brand, needs hip, high-profile cars to elevate its image and get it onto high-profit shopping lists that its aging Town Car sedan can't and its more modern but neglected LS haven't. Lincoln hopes its new crossover utility vehicle, MKX (Test Drive, Nov. 17), will grab a share of the lucrative crossover market, and that this week's subject, the MKZ sedan, will shore up the brand's position among entry-luxury buyers. Lincoln's tumble has been swift. Just six years ago at this time, Cadillac and Lincoln were in what was essentially a four-way tie with Lexus and Mercedes-Benz in the race for best-selling luxury brand. Now, Lexus dominates, BMW and Mercedes come next. Caddy, in fourth place, outsells Lincoln 2-to-1, says sales tracker Autodata. Lincoln sits seventh among the nine high-volume luxury brands, ahead of only Infiniti and Audi, Note the extended and irrelevant discussion of Lincoln sales figures and models. The Corolla intro focuses on two vehicles: The number one and number two entries in the segment. The MKZ intro features a meandering threnody about Lincoln before wandering around to the subject at hand. And it's in a POSITIVE review. Edited October 23, 2008 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 (edited) Why have I picked these two examples? Because the Corolla review is generally negative/neutral in tone (Healey sums it up as a "competent underachiever") while the MKZ review is quite positive. However, there is this continuing need on the part of writers like Healey to qualify any success from a 'moribund' nameplate while similarly explaining away the failures of a 'successful' nameplate. How many apologies have you read for BMW's iDrive? How many excuses have been made for the 'overall package' when the worthlessness of that feature likely mars the daily experience of 9 out of 10 drivers? By contrast, how many times have you seen Sync explained away as 'Microsoft engineered', without noting that Ford was the only auto maker in the US that was remotely interested in it, and that they pushed development of it beyond the original spec? Edited October 23, 2008 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph Greene Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 (edited) deleted. I agree. I don't see it either. Edited October 27, 2008 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SVT_MAN Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 all for smaller and more efficient drivetrains...also Ford has stated they are also attacking the "Holy Grail".....lighter weights....I say BRING IT!....Fiesta, curb weight 2200lbs aparently....hell put a six speed with a small ecoboost in THAt car and people would be asking Mini Cooper S who? I disagree with the Mini Cooper comment. If you've ever spoken with Mini Cooper owners, they are a very different breed. Mini Cooper is in a very loyal, niche market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomServo92 Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 I disagree with the Mini Cooper comment. If you've ever spoken with Mini Cooper owners, they are a very different breed. Mini Cooper is in a very loyal, niche market. If I'm not mistaken, Deanh IS a Mini Cooper owner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 And he is certainly of a different breed. He actually owns other animals besides a 20lb Maine Coon cat. For most of us, that would be animals enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 I disagree with the Mini Cooper comment. If you've ever spoken with Mini Cooper owners, they are a very different breed. Mini Cooper is in a very loyal, niche market. nope....as much as I do love my Cooper it does have its weakness's...ride is a definite sore point, as are $160 oil changes and exorbident ( BMW ) service costs, so if the verve/ Fiesta handles as well but rides better BIG cudos.....the S I bought was bought because the ONLY alternative at the time that met my reqirements ( man trans, compact, fun and sub 25k ) was the Focus SVT.....looking back I don't think I made a mistake. As for being a different breed, not really, love a floggin drive on the twisties but the current ( turboed not Supercharged ) Copper has become bloated in stature, lost its purity ( design/ simplicity ) and scaled the high side of the $ bracket.....I want an ALTERNATIVE, and if Ford could have / can cater to my needs ( Fiesta, 6 speed manual, revoknukle eco w 200 hp) for a more resonable price I'm IN! The Mini does sell partly because it looks like nothing on the road...neither does the Fiesta.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 And he is certainly of a different breed. He actually owns other animals besides a 20lb Maine Coon cat. For most of us, that would be animals enough. and don't forget the grey bitsa cat, an Aussie Sheppard, an African Grey Parrot called Trouble with a repertoire that includes flatulant sounds ( amoungst others ) and a huge tropical fish tank....you think Noah had an ark.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 parrots can make fart noises? The world truly is an amazing place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 parrots can make fart noises? The world truly is an amazing place. always a hoot when 15 people show up for a barbeque...never a dull moment... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsime653 Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 (edited) deleted Edited October 27, 2008 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 (edited) deleted Let me preface this statement by saying that I agree that each person should have their own opinion. The ride and handling reminded you of an Explorer? Maybe I need to go drive an Explorer again then, because I thought the Flex drove very well and nothing like an Explorer. Edited October 27, 2008 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomaro Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 parrots can make fart noises? It's not the noisy ones you need to worry about :sandbox: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsime653 Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 (edited) deleted Edited October 27, 2008 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 (edited) deleted Thus a new explorer coming out that will adress such issues as more off road ability and obvious ground clearence.... Edited October 27, 2008 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 (edited) deleted Well, the Flex I've driven and the one we have on order (I would assume) drove/will drive well and didn't/won't have a poor ride/drive. Edited October 27, 2008 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 (edited) Well, the Flex I've driven and the one we have on order (I would assume) drove/will drive well and didn't/won't have a poor ride/drive. EVERY SINGLE ONE I have driven has been a model of smoothness and comfortable ride.....maybe the dealer had 20 inch tires inflated to 50 psi....cannot explain the discrepency between your individual and mine ( Multiple units ) ride quality Edited October 24, 2008 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 There is no reason why the Flex should drive more like a SUV than a car based station wagon. Well, it weighs about as much as your Explorer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsime653 Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 (edited) deleted Edited October 27, 2008 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 (edited) deleted Spend enough money and you can solve just about any problem you can think of. How much did the Saturn V rocket weigh? And that thing got payload up to 17,450 mph. Edited October 27, 2008 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 I wonder why Ford isn't matching Mazda and putting the 3.7 in the Fusion? That would make it a brilliant package, especially with AWD. Q. Any idea when Ford will release Q3 results, late one Friday? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah Harbinger Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 Why all the Flex talk in the Fusion thread? :boring: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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