smok Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 (edited) Prove it, please provide a link to the data used to derive that amount.The auto makers are now distancing themselves from that original counterproductive claim. Here is one for Ford. Look, just at the Wage related (vacation, holidays, OT..) is $5/hr difference. That's huge, and it's not even part of the legacy cost. Edited January 27, 2009 by smok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White99GT Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Link This actually makes me want to buy a Toyota. I HIGHLY doubt I am alone. Toyota is grrrrrrreat! http://www.autoblog.com/2009/01/26/toyota-...-cash/#comments Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Here is one for Ford.Look, just at the Wage related (vacation, holidays, OT..) is $5/hr difference. That's huge, and it's not even part of the legacy cost. hmmmm, wonder who I would rather work for........shame on ford for looking after their workers better.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Here is one for Ford.Look, just at the Wage related (vacation, holidays, OT..) is $5/hr difference. That's huge, and it's not even part of the legacy cost. IIRC labor accounts for approx 20-25% of toal costs of building a car contains - thanks mainly to automated processes and robot welders. I'll agree there's a difference but $5/hour is not huge, the costs are now becoming much closer and the UAW has been willing to accept quite a bit of change. It's a generational thing, this is a pretty big incremental step also breaking down barriers as well. Just because D3 and UAW are poised at this step doesn't mean no more changes the future, they don't have to happen right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
povertyknob Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 The only real truth that matters is the uaw telling ford they can hire new employees at $14 an hour to do the exact same job that ford presently pays $28 an hour for. You folks are fiip flopping here, is the job worth $28 an hour or $14? No one ever seems to want to answer that one. No flip flop here. My point is that a lot of folks with strong opinions about the fate of the domestic automakers seem to be obsessed with hourly wages to the point of ignoring any other solution to competitiveness. Does it really matter how the domestics achieve competitive costs? A lot of posters assert that the D3 inevitably will fail because the UAW will not bargain in good faith. The agreement to pay new hires $14 an hour with a 401K for retirement was made to preserve jobs and make Ford more competitive. The union will negotiate for the best pay they can get and ultimately the consumer will determine what that will be. Had the economy not tanked the last contract would have helped going forward. So ,you see. the UAW can't win. They agree to wage cuts that would immediately begin to lower the average wage and the guy on the street still blames the domestics woes on the "greedy" UAW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSFan00 Posted January 28, 2009 Author Share Posted January 28, 2009 The perception of reality on this board is still the best part of reading it for me; "taking care of their workers better." Yeah. Ford set out to pay it's employees more than Toyota, so they could take care of them. The company, please try to remember, exists to pay/reward the shareholders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSFan00 Posted January 28, 2009 Author Share Posted January 28, 2009 Also, just fyi, White99GT, having less cash on hand (but over $15 Billion) is not equivalent to "being mortgaged to the hilt and running through cash like water." Some fine line differences are tough to pick up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 (edited) IIRC labor accounts for approx 20-25% of toal costs of building a car contains More like 10%. EDIT: And before you whine about my number being wrong, here is a link. since labor costs are just 10 percent of the price of a vehicle LINK Edited January 28, 2009 by Pioneer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 The perception of reality on this board is still the best part of reading it for me; "taking care of their workers better." You have no perception of reality. All of you're posts stink of labor hating, anti-union propaganda. All of your posts and threads have one theme, and personally, I think it's getting old. You purposefully started this thread in the wrong section just to get more traffic. You fit the definition of a troll right down to the smallest detail. I reiterate my opinion that this thread should be closed, or at least moved to the off topic section. This thread has nothing to do with Ford Motor Company, the original article doesn't even mention Ford, and this whole post is about slandering the hourly UAW workers at all Big 2 1/2 automakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davdog Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 No flip flop here. My point is that a lot of folks with strong opinions about the fate of the domestic automakers seem to be obsessed with hourly wages to the point of ignoring any other solution to competitiveness. Does it really matter how the domestics achieve competitive costs? A lot of posters assert that the D3 inevitably will fail because the UAW will not bargain in good faith. The agreement to pay new hires $14 an hour with a 401K for retirement was made to preserve jobs and make Ford more competitive. The union will negotiate for the best pay they can get and ultimately the consumer will determine what that will be. Had the economy not tanked the last contract would have helped going forward. So ,you see. the UAW can't win. They agree to wage cuts that would immediately begin to lower the average wage and the guy on the street still blames the domestics woes on the "greedy" UAW. Ford isn't hiring so how is the $14 an hour position going to help now or any time in the foreseeable future? To fill a $14 an hour position they first need to pay a $100k buyout to get someone to vacate the position, but then that position will be filled by one of the many people in jsp and along with them comes the 30 to 45k moving expense, they even get money if it's just a longer drive to work. How can you expect a consumer to buy a ford product knowing that some of that money is going to a guy in New Jersey whose plant closed 4 years ago and is still getting paid? The more that comes out the less consumer support you are going to see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplesituations Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Ford isn't hiring so how is the $14 an hour position going to help now or any time in the foreseeable future? To fill a $14 an hour position they first need to pay a $100k buyout to get someone to vacate the position, but then that position will be filled by one of the many people in jsp and along with them comes the 30 to 45k moving expense, they even get money if it's just a longer drive to work. How can you expect a consumer to buy a ford product knowing that some of that money is going to a guy in New Jersey whose plant closed 4 years ago and is still getting paid? The more that comes out the less consumer support you are going to see. just keep listening to the media, blah, blah, blah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Ford isn't hiring Of course not. They keep sending new product to Mexico. Where is your outrage to that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSFan00 Posted January 28, 2009 Author Share Posted January 28, 2009 I'm traveling tomorrow, Pioneer, but your inspired banter has given me the energy to commit to 1 new post per day for the remainder of the month. :happy feet: I know you can't stay away from my thoughts on this board, so I hope you sleep well looking forward to tomorrow evening's latest insight! If you stay up late, I might just be inspired to post tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davdog Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Of course not. They keep sending new product to Mexico. Where is your outrage to that? Of course I'm outraged, those could be American jobs if Ford were able to fill them at what it takes to fill them. Those could be some great $20 an hour jobs but we know that isn't going to happen. You've overpriced the product, what did you expect? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davdog Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 just keep listening to the media, blah, blah, blah What is incorrect in what I posted? Is ford hiring? Have poeple been getting 100k buyouts? Do people get moving expenses and do they get them even if they only have a longer drive to the new plant? Did ford not close a New Jersey plant and have people from that plant remain in GEN for 4 years? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 More like 10%. EDIT: And before you whine about my number being wrong, here is a link. LINK Hey I'm not whining, I actually thought is was 10% but didn't have a link to prove it, I'm glad you were able to supply one. So really wages, as a percentage of total car build costs is not the major factor it is made out to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSFan00 Posted January 28, 2009 Author Share Posted January 28, 2009 Of course I'm outraged, those could be American jobs if Ford were able to fill them at what it takes to fill them. Those could be some great $20 an hour jobs but we know that isn't going to happen. You've overpriced the product, what did you expect? If we had adequate bilateral free trade agreements with S. America that might be true; we don't. Ford isn't moving plants to Mexico primarily due to wage rates. That is a myth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Ford took no money from the Federal Government. Actually, the reason why Ford doesn't need to negotiate new work rules is because they already did that. Went (for the most part) rather smoothly. Ford has a better relationship with the UAW than the other two because Ford doesn't engage in the kind of demagoguery and negotiation through the media that GM & Chrysler love. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 What is incorrect in what I posted? Is ford hiring? Nope. Nobody is. Have people been getting 100k buyouts? People have been getting buyouts in every sector of our economy. You only bring up the automakers because it helps you and the LS troll. Do people get moving expenses and do they get them even if they only have a longer drive to the new plant? No. You have to move hundreds of miles to get a moving allowance. Unless you plan on commuting at least a couple of hours each way per day, you're going to have to move. Did ford not close a New Jersey plant and have people from that plant remain in GEN for 4 years? I don't know about the timetable, but yes. And under the new rules that we negotiated last contract, there are no more employees in New Jersey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Nope. Nobody is. I wouldn't say NOBODY is hiring. Heck, I'm sure even Ford is hiring on some level or another. Sure, they are only hiring to replace people who leave in specific instances, but I doubt they've frozen hiring altogether. I don't know of any company that has. It's true that a lot of companies are not expanding payrolls now, but plenty of them are still hiring to make up for attrition through fires, quits, or retirements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 I wouldn't say NOBODY is hiring. I was referring to his insistence that Ford needs workers under the new pay structure. The same provisions are in GM and Chrysler's contracts too, but neither of them are hiring either. Yes, other companies are hiring. Sooner or later Ford will too, but not until the economy recovers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 I was referring to his insistence that Ford needs workers under the new pay structure. The same provisions are in GM and Chrysler's contracts too, but neither of them are hiring either. Yes, other companies are hiring. Sooner or later Ford will too, but not until the economy recovers. Well, I'm betting the few they are hiring to fill spots left by attrition sure aren't being paid what their predecessors were making. But, that's pretty much true in all businesses, no matter what the economy looks like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battyr Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Actually, the reason why Ford doesn't need to negotiate new work rules is because they already did that. Went (for the most part) rather smoothly. Ford has a better relationship with the UAW than the other two because Ford doesn't engage in the kind of demagoguery and negotiation through the media that GM & Chrysler love. Just to add. The labour cost of assembling a car is starting to get cheap. Today, the cost comes form the labour legacy cost and cost of of the parts that are being assembled. Ford is in the position that they are currently competitive with GM and can save money from keep a good labour relationship. If GM and Chrysler take more cuts, Ford will get the savings the next time they go to negotiate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
povertyknob Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 This isn't a reply to anyone in particular but a statement of my perception. This , and similar, threads are like arguing with my wife--she shouts out her point of view until she runs out of breath and I try to explain my reasoning until her rate of respiration returns to normal. When she can catch her breath again she goes on as if she's heard none of my counterpoints at all. It isn't about being reasonable, it's about stubbornly reiterating an opinion until the other party simply gives up the debate. You simply cannot reason with anyone whose mind is already made up and I will not continue to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bored of Pisteon Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 (edited) This isn't a reply to anyone in particular but a statement of my perception. This , and similar, threads are like arguing with my wife--she shouts out her point of view until she runs out of breath and I try to explain my reasoning until her rate of respiration returns to normal. When she can catch her breath again she goes on as if she's heard none of my counterpoints at all. It isn't about being reasonable, it's about stubbornly reiterating an opinion until the other party simply gives up the debate. You simply cannot reason with anyone whose mind is already made up and I will not continue to do so. Yes, just like the in your local rants and raves section of whatever city Craigslist you happen to be on. Because believe me... THERE ARE SOME STUPID IN THERE! Read for yourself! Laugh while you're at it too! Edited January 28, 2009 by Bored of Pisteon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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