mkaresh Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 I've driven the Genesis sedan, but I haven't the MKS (so I cannot comment there)....... The Genesis is a big sedan, the structure is stiff and it handles fairly well for a big car. The V-6 version I drove had more than enough power and the car was balanced enough in braking, handling and steering feel. Not a single manufacturer can touch this vehicle in price (not even Lincoln). What I didn't like about the vehicle is the lack of tech features. No adaptive cruise control, having cooled seats for the driver but not the passenger, the NAV setup is behind the times and the bluetooth integration appears to be an afterthought. I also didn't care much for the fake wood, the lack of folding seats in the rear and the slot to place the key fob (right on the center stack). Why didn't Hyundai offer up a sport suspension? All Hyundai has done here is offer a large car at an entry level price. The bar was not raised in terms of refinement, performance nor efficiency. Bottom line it is at best a slightly above average vehicle with a cheap price tag, and according to the media outlets average isn't good enough. That statement doesn't make much sense at all. If you don't understand 'refinement' how can you shrug it off? You mind explaining that statement a bit further? I just don't understand statements such as those. Even when I sit/ride/drive in the so called gold standard of quality (Lexus), I find poorly executed design and materials. This isn't a Detroit issue, this is an automotive industry as a whole issue. The sooner people realize that the better. They know that various people claim the cars need xyz, but they don't really "get it," and they don't see it as truly important. "Understanding" goes beyond knowing that something exists. I know that particle physics exists, but I don't come close to fully understanding it. For my Ph.D. thesis I spent a year-and-a-half inside the product development organization of GM. They spent far more time rationalizing why they "really didn't have to do" xyz than figuring out how to do xyz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph Greene Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 You need to be comparing the V 8 Genesis to others. BTW....I'm not particularly interested ib blowing their horn for them. But you really can't compare the latest Hyundai vehicles with those older models most know about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkaresh Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 (edited) :rolleyes: First you get the "Ignore Hyundai at your peril" remark, with the references to Lexus and Infiniti. Well, Lexus and Infiiniti products were the rolling by-product of a contrived ownership experience. Much, MUCH, thought and effort (almost a decade) went into Toyota's rollout of Lexus. Why? Because back in the early 80s, Toyota execs didn't think the world was going to be handed them on a silver platter. Anyway, they made the Lexus ownership experience count. Almost out of the GATE, they made Lexus ownership distinctive. Hyundai has beyond failed miserably at this, and people drawing comparisons between Lexus and HYUNDAI ignore the Lexus ownership experience at their peril. ---- Then you get the "It's much more refined than the MKS" argument, which denies the significantly higher feature content (both standard and available) in the MKS. Frankly Mr. Karesh, I am utterly surprised at your insistence that a vehicle with fake wood and fewer/worse comfort/convenience features (cooled seats, phone/music player integration, nav system, leather quality) is without qualification better than the MKS. I had come to expect better than this starry-eyed hoo-hah from you. I'd also have expected you to grasp that selling a luxury car out of a hyundai dealership makes about as much sense as selling Oreo cookies at a Joe's Crabshack. ---- And the coupe is an even bigger disaster waiting to happen..... Memo to Agnes MacKenzie: NOBODY BUYS LUXURY COUPES! I spoke only about the level of refinement. I said nothing about the feature content or the dealership experience. These are three entirely different things. I'm hardly "starry-eyed" with regard to the Genesis. Almost a year ago I wrote about how it was not nearly as significant as Lexus in that it did not raise the bar in any way. Lexus took smoothness and quietness and the dealership expereience to a new level. The Genesis takes nothing to a new level for the industry, only for Hyundai. This is really the point: the Genesis is just a parity product--but Detroit cannot manage to develop something similar. If you think the Genesis lacks features, check out the Pontiac G8. On the coupe, it's not a luxury coupe. I don't think it should be called a Genesis--it shares very little with the sedan. In pricing, it goes up against the Mustang. Edited March 1, 2009 by mkaresh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Reynolds Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 They know that various people claim the cars need xyz, but they don't really "get it," and they don't see it as truly important. "Understanding" goes beyond knowing that something exists. I know that particle physics exists, but I don't come close to fully understanding it. For my Ph.D. thesis I spent a year-and-a-half inside the product development organization of GM. They spent far more time rationalizing why they "really didn't have to do" xyz than figuring out how to do xyz. Well that's all you had to say my friend. Working with GM for a year-and-a-half does not serve as a barometer for the other two Detroit automakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Reynolds Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 This is really the point: the Genesis is just a parity product--but Detroit cannot manage to develop something similar. I would think that the G8 has done just that. Even then sales of vehicles such as these are so abysmal I see no point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 "Hyundai Genesis" is Korean; when translated into German, it is spelled "Volkswagen Phaeton." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 the Genesis is just a parity product On the coupe, it's not a luxury coupe. I don't think it should be called a Genesis--it shares very little with the sedan. In pricing, it goes up against the Mustang. How can the Genesis be a 'parity product' when it lacks so many refinements (such as, gee, I don't know--quality materials, for one)? The Genesis coupe is certainly not sporty, so what's left? Is it the reincarnation of the '74 Torino or '76 Challenger? Or, more recently, the '95 Riviera? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomaro Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 (edited) For the last time...to all those who read internet forums, motortrend, car and driver etc... HYUNDAI IS NOT THE SECOND COMING. THEY ARE NOT ON PAR WITH FORD. Just because you took your quality out of the crapper and onto the bathroom floor with $15K cars doesn't automatically make you worthy of making a class leader in the $40K segment. Edited March 2, 2009 by atomaro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SVT_MAN Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 (edited) I am a Ford fan through thick and thin ... but I've sat in Hyundais and driven them. Most of their products that I've been in have impressed me. And it wasn't because they were Hyundai. They would have impressed me had it been a Ford or anything else. They impressed me on their own merits. I haven't driven a Genesis, nor have I driven an MKS ... but I think that most here are probably writing from our heart instead of our head. I disagree with the comment that the big 3 can't build a car like the Genesis, but I don't agree with those of you who are acting like Hyundai is still where they were 10 years ago. The Korean cars honestly impress me more than the Japanese cars I've sat in. For those of you who think Hyundais are still horribly built and awful, here's my impression: You're looking at Hyundai like most of the world is still looking at Ford ... you're looking at the Hyundai of 10 years ago . I try to love American stuff as much as I can, but I call it as I see it. Sometimes the Japanese get it right. (First generation Lexus's were some of the most appealing luxury cars to me as a child. They had a nice shape and they were very very refined.) Sometimes Koreans get it too. Am I saying it (Genesis) will sell? I doubt it actually. Honestly, I have huge doubts. The styling is anonymous and the car overall seems like something that would have been styled 8 years ago, not a last year. The only thing I'm getting at here is that I believe the car is probably a lot better than some give it credit for. If you want to know my honest opinion on the MKS I sat in at the auto show - what disturbed me ... was that there was a BLACK-PAINTED, ROUGH METAL, SCREWS UNCOVERED seat track just sitting there on the floor of the MKS when I got in it. The auto show worker had moved the seat all the way back. When I saw that rough, ungainly sight, it totally ruined my impression of the vehicle. I couldn't be impressed by the rest of the car after seeing that because that ugly metal seat track, the same one I see in my Fusion (which costs half as much). For a vehicle that's in the $40k area, I better not be seeing some stupid metal seat track. It's these devilish details that Ford fails on, IMO. If Ford ever wants Lincoln to thrive, they better not keep chintzing in these areas. Before you start saying to me: "Well, you never have the seat back that far ..." that isn't true. My brother is 6' 3" and he needed the seat back that far to even get in. Edited March 4, 2009 by SVT_MAN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 (edited) For those of you who think Hyundais are still horribly built and awful, here's my impression: You're looking at Hyundai like most of the world is still looking at Ford ... you're look at the Hyundai of 10 years ago . Bravo! Everyone here who complains about people saying that domestic cars are crappy are just as guilty when they prejudge the same way with other makes. I love my domestics, but I'm sure not silly enough to count ANY other manufacturer out based on where it is from or what they built a decade ago. Edited March 2, 2009 by Intrepidatious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 If you want to know my honest opinion on the MKS I sat in at the auto show - what disturbed me ... was that there was a BLACK-PAINTED, ROUGH METAL, SCREWS UNCOVERED seat track just sitting there on the floor of the MKS when I got in it. The auto show worker had moved the seat all the way back. When I saw that rough, ungainly sight, it totally ruined my impression of the vehicle. I couldn't be impressed by the rest of the car after seeing that because that ugly metal seat track, the same one I see in my Fusion (which costs half as much). For a vehicle that's in the $40k area, I better not be seeing some stupid metal seat track. It's these devilish details that Ford fails on, IMO. If Ford ever wants Lincoln to thrive, they better not keep chintzing in these areas. I'm sorry, but what other kind of seat track do you expect? I looked at our BMW's seat track, and it isn't any more impressive than a Ford's (or therefore Lincoln's). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Reynolds Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 If you want to know my honest opinion on the MKS I sat in at the auto show - what disturbed me ... was that there was a BLACK-PAINTED, ROUGH METAL, SCREWS UNCOVERED seat track just sitting there on the floor of the MKS when I got in it. The auto show worker had moved the seat all the way back. When I saw that rough, ungainly sight, it totally ruined my impression of the vehicle. I couldn't be impressed by the rest of the car after seeing that because that ugly metal seat track, the same one I see in my Fusion (which costs half as much). For a vehicle that's in the $40k area, I better not be seeing some stupid metal seat track. It's these devilish details that Ford fails on, IMO. If Ford ever wants Lincoln to thrive, they better not keep chintzing in these areas. Before you start saying to me: "Well, you never have the seat back that far ..." that isn't true. My brother is 6' 3" and he needed the seat back that far to even get in. I hear ya, the tracks would be better if they were recessed. Having said that, I believe the tracks in both our FX and G are readily noticeable and if I recall correctly they were thinly veiled on the 5 series as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkaresh Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 (edited) How can the Genesis be a 'parity product' when it lacks so many refinements (such as, gee, I don't know--quality materials, for one)? The Genesis coupe is certainly not sporty, so what's left? Is it the reincarnation of the '74 Torino or '76 Challenger? Or, more recently, the '95 Riviera? The materials in the Genesis are as good as you'll find in a $40,000 car, and with a few exceptions are better than those in the MKS IMHO. The Lincoln has very nice leather and some real wood, but too many bits of the interior are of a distinctly lower grade. The center console and center stack are those of a $25,000 car, and the trim piece that surround the vents on the rear face of the center console could come out of a base Focus (I pointed it out to Lincoln execs during media days at NAIAS, so perhaps they'll fix the last). But, again, refinement isn't a matter of matrials, it's a matter of how smoothly and seamlessly the car and the various bits within it operate. Interesting that you say "The Genesis coupe is certainly not sporty." I think you'll find yourself in a small minority on this one. It sounds like you think that the Genesis Coupe is much larger than it actually is. It's only 182 inches long, half a foot shorter than a Mustang and roughly the same size as the Infiniti G35 its styling was cribbed from. Last time I checked, plenty of people perceive the Infiniti coupe as sporty. It's priced about even with the Nissan Altima coupe, which is also about the same size, but front-wheel-drive. Why you think the Genesis Coupe is similar in concept to a large luxury coupe like the Riviera escapes me--aside from the name. I've written elsewhere that the coupe shouldn't share a name with the sedan, because they're very different in size, price, mission, and just about everything except the platform. I suspected then that giving both cars the same name would confuse people. Seems I was correct. Edited March 2, 2009 by mkaresh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkaresh Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Well that's all you had to say my friend. Working with GM for a year-and-a-half does not serve as a barometer for the other two Detroit automakers. The products of all three automakers bear the marks of similar thought processes. I don't think GM was unusual in this regard. If anything, it was typical of how organizations operate when under severe cost pressure--look for ways to avoid spending money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkaresh Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 I hear ya, the tracks would be better if they were recessed. Having said that, I believe the tracks in both our FX and G are readily noticeable and if I recall correctly they were thinly veiled on the 5 series as well. I'm 5-9, so my experience in this area is nonexistent. I would suspect, though, that this is one of those cases that will prove to be more common than not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Reynolds Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 (edited) The products of all three automakers bear the marks of similar thought processes. I don't think GM was unusual in this regard. If anything, it was typical of how organizations operate when under severe cost pressure--look for ways to avoid spending money. Well I think you might want to include every automaker in that realm. I've seen half-assed things from Audi to Toyota. I was very disappointed with the buttons in the new A4, they lacked the tactile feedback of those in our G35. Toyota pushed back the debut of the Corolla and it's still a mediocre product. Need I go on...... I can tell you this much judging from how my brother's hand me down Fusion SEL has held up (and the build quality), I'd consider the Ford over 90% of the product in that field (especially with the improvements). Bland gauges (gone) Better padding on the door's armrests (check) Sport shift (check) Brick radio (gone) Power seatback (check) Std. safety features (check) Improved crash test scores (check) Improved fuel economy (check) I could go on. The fact of the matter is, Ford address a lot of the downfalls of the 06-09 Fusion. If Ford were truly half-assing it, you would see it in the execution. Need I go on about the little things... Edited March 2, 2009 by Michael Reynolds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougarpower Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 hmm well if it wasnt for the free trade I bet that there wouldnt be a Genesis and and what rate are they selling because if Im correct the MKS its outselling it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
630land Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Well reason US makes cant is because Hyundai is subsidized by South Korean govt, but then Big 3 cant do that since it is 'socialism'. So, we have Big Business outsourcing to socialist and communist nations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Well reason US makes cant is because Hyundai is subsidized by South Korean govt, but then Big 3 cant do that since it is 'socialism'. So, we have Big Business outsourcing to socialist and communist nations. Well, it seems like were on a path toward socialism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blazerdude20 Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Well, it seems like were on a path toward socialism. eh, a lot of our country already is socialized (school, some medical, security) reality is most people dont care as long as they can live their lives the same way as they do now. any who, the genesis is a fine car but nothing spectacular. disappointed in the ride feel. no one can touch the price of the genesis, but they also have cash coming out the ying-yang. go to south Korea, it is like Hyundai is the government. everything has that crooked H on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 (I pointed it out to Lincoln execs during media days at NAIAS, so perhaps they'll fix the last). You MUST be kidding me: 1) EVERYONE noticed the back end of the center console and 2) YOU have to have a pretty high opinion of yourself, if you think that YOU pointing out something to Lincoln means anything at all. Sorry, dude, your website is okay for what it is---but seeings how IT is based off of your STATISTICAL ANALYSIS of OTHER PEOPLE'S OPINIONS, it doesn't entitle you to jack squat with Lincoln execs. But, again, refinement isn't a matter of matrials, it's a matter of how smoothly and seamlessly the car and the various bits within it operate. Ahhhhhhhh.......................... you mean the barfed up S-Class exterior styling and noticeably FAKE wood qualify---to you---as 'smoothly and seamlessly operating', well, I guess you're right--they're both knock-offs of vastly superior genuine articles. Interesting that you say "The Genesis coupe is certainly not sporty." Why you think the Genesis Coupe is similar in concept to a large luxury coupe like the Riviera escapes me Why don't I think the Genesis coupe is sporty? Because the Mustang, in base trim, is about the bare minimum for what I'd consider sporty and the Genesis coupe is even more softly sprung (and slower). It's a boulevardier, a cruiser, a Riviera at 7/8th scale. Would you consider the Monte Carlo to be 'sporty'? I wouldn't. And making the Monte Carlo shorter wouldn't make it more sporty. It would just make it more cramped. And you know why it's got the name Genesis? Because Hyundai's trying to create a second brand on the cheap. Finally, anyone that says something as like "Detroit can't.........." while simultaneously saying, "stop judging Hyundai by the past" needs to take a good long gaze in the mirror in order to get a clear picture in their head of what hypocrisy looks like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blazerdude20 Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Finally, anyone that says something as like "Detroit can't.........." while simultaneously saying, "stop judging Hyundai by the past" needs to take a good long gaze in the mirror in order to get a clear picture in their head of what hypocrisy looks like. hypocrisy thy name... hypocrisy thy name is YOU! (not you RJ) i believe genesis is a separate brand in south Korea. anyone know for sure? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 You MUST be kidding me: 1) EVERYONE noticed the back end of the center console and 2) YOU have to have a pretty high opinion of yourself, if you think that YOU pointing out something to Lincoln means anything at all. Sorry, dude, your website is okay for what it is---but seeings how IT is based off of your STATISTICAL ANALYSIS of OTHER PEOPLE'S OPINIONS, it doesn't entitle you to jack squat with Lincoln execs. Forgive me if I missed it, but what website does he run? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Reynolds Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 (edited) Forgive me if I missed it, but what website does he run? True Delta, an automotive reliability website, and if I'm not mistaken he writes for the TTAC. Edited March 2, 2009 by Michael Reynolds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Writes for TTAC? So long credibility! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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