"The big 3 can't build a car like the Genesis"

[Michael Reynolds]

But, again, refinement isn't a matter of matrials, it's a matter of how smoothly and seamlessly the car and the various bits within it operate.

 

That's rich. Now tell me how most Japanese, Korean and European cars stand head and shoulders above Big 3 automakers in that area? You're also going to sit back and tell me that if cheap interior bits were to operate smoothly and seamlessy it would be OK?

[rmc523]

True Delta, an automotive reliability website, and if I'm not mistaken he writes for the TTAC.

 

Oh ok, thanks.

 

-----

 

As for the thread title:

 

This is America, we can build whatever we want/anything if we put our minds to it!

[Michael Reynolds]

Writes for TTAC? So long credibility!

 

http://www.truedelta.com/media/PRW062307.php?session_code=

 

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/michael-k...ederal-gas-tax/

[rmc523]

That's rich. Now tell me how most Japanese, Korean and European cars stand head and shoulders above Big 3 automakers in that area? You're also going to sit back and tell me that if cheap interior bits were to operate smoothly and seamlessy it would be OK?

 

If anything, I'd say many American cars excel at "smooth and seemless" operation in certain areas....one that comes to mind is navigation systems (and no overly complicated iDrive-esque controllers), even though that's not really materials that we're discussing.

[RichardJensen]

http://www.truedelta.com/media/PRW062307.php?session_code=

 

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/michael-k...ederal-gas-tax/

"When we decided to add pricing data to our independent reviews, there was no question we'd turn to TrueDelta," says Robert Farago. "The integrity of TrueDelta's information is beyond reproach and their user interface turns an often complicated business into a no-brainer. We know our readers will share our delight."

 

Seeing Robert Farago talk about integrity is like hearing Amy Winehouse talk about sobriety.

[RichardJensen]

Sorry Michael. I can't recommend your site anymore. Might not mean much to you, but then again, maybe it should. You don't polish your reputation by hanging around with guys like Robert Farago.

[Michael Reynolds]

If anything, I'd say many American cars excel at "smooth and seemless" operation in certain areas....one that comes to mind is navigation systems (and no overly complicated iDrive-esque controllers), even though that's not really materials that we're discussing.

 

That's exactly what I'm getting at.

[dwford]

I have sold both the MKS and the Genesis, and to me where the Genesis shines over the MKS is the interior. Better materials, better fit and finish, unique switchgear not shared with lesser models. When you are in the MKS, you know in the back of your mind you are driving a marked up Taurus (and with the 2010 Taurus this is never more true!). The MKS without navi has a terribly cheap looking stereo head unit. However, driving the Genesis, you just get that back of your mind uneasy feeling that it all won't last. The power steering pump makes weird noises, the engine smells like its on fire after a brisk drive, the whole car doesn't like cold weather (a trait shared with all Hyundais), The bluetooth is way behind SYNC.

 

Both cars will depreciate like stones.

 

Lincoln can't expect to be taken seriously as long as it shares FWD chassis with Ford. Lincoln needs its own RWD chassis to underpin 3-4 models, with the MKZ sharing a FWD chassis with Ford. What the Genesis does it create a halo over the rest of the lineup. It isn't intended to set the sales charts on fire, just sell enough to get Hyundai's name out there as a maker of quality products. In that way it succeeds.

 

CAN the Big 3 build a car like this? Ford and GM can. Will they? No, they can't afford it and the volume isn't there.

[silvrsvt]

When you are in the MKS, you know in the back of your mind you are driving a marked up Taurus (and with the 2010 Taurus this is never more true!).

 

And how many people who actually buy them give a fuck that its on a Taurus platform? Thats like saying the A3/4 suck because they share their underpinnings with the Rabbit...:rolleyes:

[IMSA-XJR9]

Why don't I think the Genesis coupe is sporty? Because the Mustang, in base trim, is about the bare minimum for what I'd consider sporty and the Genesis coupe is even more softly sprung (and slower). It's a boulevardier, a cruiser, a Riviera at 7/8th scale.

 

I am not a fan of the coupe per say, but I am not sure where you are getting your information about the coupe. Are you refering to the Turbo 4, or the six? I think the 6's have dyno'd at ~276 rwhp, and from what I have read the coupe seems to be a great bang-for-the-buck vs. a 370z, Mustang (GT), etc.

[one2gamble]

And how many people who actually buy them give a fuck that its on a Taurus platform? Thats like saying the A3/4 suck because they share their underpinnings with the Rabbit...:rolleyes:

 

 

Nobody writes about that fact, Audi gets a pass. If Ford did the same thing it would be and is mentioned in every single article written about the vehicle.

[papilgee4evaeva]

And how many people who actually buy them give a fuck that its on a Taurus platform? Thats like saying the A3/TT suck because they share their underpinnings with the Rabbit...:rolleyes:

 

Fixed, but your point remains.

[ANTAUS]

And actually, as we all know, it's a Volvo derived platform...but the second the Taurus underpinned it, now people are calling it a lowly "Taurus" platform and fail to remind themselves it's Volvo nature... I'm interested in seeing what this Volvo platform does in the Taurus SHO tune...

[morgande]

• American manufactures use to define luxury, but no longer. The Germans now define what luxury is, is not.
  
• The Genesis is an attempt to build a vehicle based on the German definition of luxury. The closer they adhere to that definition, the better they will be seen by critics.
  
• There is a bias against Detroit in the media and in some cases Ford in particular. When Ford attempts to build a luxury vehicle but does not adhere to the currently held definition of the standard it will manifest itself in the bias against the company.
  

 

Luxury is: RWD and V8 power. That it. Period. Are there slight exceptions to the rule...perhaps. But for the most part, this is what you need to play the game.

 

If you don't play this game, the rest of the vehicle better be FLAWLESS and/or the parent company better be a darling of the critics or its gonna get tarnished in the reviews even when it perhaps doesn't deserve it.

 

Is the Genesis perfect? No. Is the MKS perfect? No. But the Genesis adheres to the German definition of luxury (RWD and V8 Power). It pulls very respective numbers in terms of its 0-60 times, etc. Because of this fact, and because of its price, the media is more likely to overlook its imperfections. This is because, it is seen by the critics as a viable attempt to build a vehicle that competes in the German definition of Luxury.

 

On the other hand, the MKS is a FWD platform. It doesn't fit the German definition of luxury. It doesn't fit the classic definition of American Luxury. Because of this, the critics are already going to approach it with a level of bias because they were looking for something out the MKS that Ford didn't provide. You can speak all you want about Ecoboost and AWD. But the fact remains, #1 nobody has driven one of these things yet and #2 it still isn't RWD and V8 and so its not going to be seen as favorably as vehicles that adhere to that even IF (and I do mean IF) the Ecoboost and AWD features do give the vehicle comparable driving dynamics to the defined standard of RWD and V8 power.

 

It is the same as when Honda tried to push off the Ridgeline as a Truck. It doesn't fit the definition of a truck as defined by Detroit with RWD, V8, and BOF. And so it will always be judge critically because of that. On top of that, the trucks alternative features (Unibody and V6 did not compare with the standard with real world evaluation testing, and so it wasn't taken seriously)

 

Since no vehicle is perfect, the best approach to be taken seriously in the market is to compete with the manufactures who dominate the segment. And until Ford does that with Lincoln, they are going to be judge by the media negatively. The fact that the media already has a bias against the company doesn't help much. One can only hope that Ecoboost and AWD is as good as Ford says it is. If not, its NOT going to help things either. It is...what it is.

[rmc523]

I have sold both the MKS and the Genesis, and to me where the Genesis shines over the MKS is the interior. Better materials, better fit and finish, unique switchgear not shared with lesser models.

 

Actually, the lowest model the MKS shares it's switchgear with is the MKZ.....it DOES NOT use the same switchgear as Ford products (at least on the center console, other areas, like headlight switches or smaller times may be shared).

[NickF1011]

Luxury is: RWD and V8 power.

 

Who knew my parents old '79 Caprice was a luxury car???

 

[rmc523]

Actually, the lowest model the MKS shares it's switchgear with is the MKZ.....it DOES NOT use the same switchgear as Ford products (at least on the center console, other areas, like headlight switches or smaller times may be shared).

MKS

Taurus

Taurus

MKZ

[chiefstang]

Who knew my parents old '79 Caprice was a luxury car???

 

 

P and Armada...

[silvrsvt]

Luxury is: RWD and V8 power. That it. Period. Are there slight exceptions to the rule...perhaps. But for the most part, this is what you need to play the game.

 

Sure doesn't stop Lexus having the best selling car (ES350) and crossover (RX) in the Luxury market

[silvrsvt]

Fixed, but your point remains.

 

The A4 is just slightly larger..much like the Escort and Tempo

[fxcomet]

Shh, don't tell Audi....

[Deanh]

• American manufactures use to define luxury, but no longer. The Germans now define what luxury is, is not.
  
• The Genesis is an attempt to build a vehicle based on the German definition of luxury. The closer they adhere to that definition, the better they will be seen by critics.
  
• There is a bias against Detroit in the media and in some cases Ford in particular. When Ford attempts to build a luxury vehicle but does not adhere to the currently held definition of the standard it will manifest itself in the bias against the company.
  

 

Luxury is: RWD and V8 power. That it. Period. Are there slight exceptions to the rule...perhaps. But for the most part, this is what you need to play the game.

 

If you don't play this game, the rest of the vehicle better be FLAWLESS and/or the parent company better be a darling of the critics or its gonna get tarnished in the reviews even when it perhaps doesn't deserve it.

 

Is the Genesis perfect? No. Is the MKS perfect? No. But the Genesis adheres to the German definition of luxury (RWD and V8 Power). It pulls very respective numbers in terms of its 0-60 times, etc. Because of this fact, and because of its price, the media is more likely to overlook its imperfections. This is because, it is seen by the critics as a viable attempt to build a vehicle that competes in the German definition of Luxury.

 

On the other hand, the MKS is a FWD platform. It doesn't fit the German definition of luxury. It doesn't fit the classic definition of American Luxury. Because of this, the critics are already going to approach it with a level of bias because they were looking for something out the MKS that Ford didn't provide. You can speak all you want about Ecoboost and AWD. But the fact remains, #1 nobody has driven one of these things yet and #2 it still isn't RWD and V8 and so its not going to be seen as favorably as vehicles that adhere to that even IF (and I do mean IF) the Ecoboost and AWD features do give the vehicle comparable driving dynamics to the defined standard of RWD and V8 power.

 

It is the same as when Honda tried to push off the Ridgeline as a Truck. It doesn't fit the definition of a truck as defined by Detroit with RWD, V8, and BOF. And so it will always be judge critically because of that. On top of that, the trucks alternative features (Unibody and V6 did not compare with the standard with real world evaluation testing, and so it wasn't taken seriously)

 

Since no vehicle is perfect, the best approach to be taken seriously in the market is to compete with the manufactures who dominate the segment. And until Ford does that with Lincoln, they are going to be judge by the media negatively. The fact that the media already has a bias against the company doesn't help much. One can only hope that Ecoboost and AWD is as good as Ford says it is. If not, its NOT going to help things either. It is...what it is.

what a load of claptrap...V8 and RWD the holy grail...take the blinders off and embrace progress for gods sakes....THAT opinion is goes back 15 years and shows an inabilty and stubborness to garner change..besides that point 99% of cars, be it front, all, or Rear wheel drive are HEAD AND SHOULDERS above the capapbility of the person behind the wheel.......

[simplesituations]

what a load of claptrap...V8 and RWD the holy grail...take the blinders off and embrace progress for gods sakes....THAT opinion is goes back 15 years and shows an inabilty and stubborness to garner change..besides that point 99% of cars, be it front, all, or Rear wheel drive are HEAD AND SHOULDERS above the capapbility of the person behind the wheel.......

agreed, really what does it matter if it drives nice, seems like ya can't even tell the difference anymore

Edited March 2, 2009 by simplesituations

[jpd80]

what a load of claptrap...V8 and RWD the holy grail...take the blinders off and embrace progress for gods sakes....THAT opinion is goes back 15 years and shows an inabilty and stubborness to garner change..besides that point 99% of cars, be it front, all, or Rear wheel drive are HEAD AND SHOULDERS above the capapbility of the person behind the wheel.......

Exactly!

Niche product RWDs can work but they have to tie in with the needs of the buyer. You just can't pin all

sales hopes on the RWD label any more, the market demands much more these days.

[Michael Reynolds]

I have sold both the MKS and the Genesis, and to me where the Genesis shines over the MKS is the interior. Better materials, better fit and finish, unique switchgear not shared with lesser models. When you are in the MKS, you know in the back of your mind you are driving a marked up Taurus (and with the 2010 Taurus this is never more true!). The MKS without navi has a terribly cheap looking stereo head unit. However, driving the Genesis, you just get that back of your mind uneasy feeling that it all won't last. The power steering pump makes weird noises, the engine smells like its on fire after a brisk drive, the whole car doesn't like cold weather (a trait shared with all Hyundais), The bluetooth is way behind SYNC.

 

Both cars will depreciate like stones.

 

Lincoln can't expect to be taken seriously as long as it shares FWD chassis with Ford. Lincoln needs its own RWD chassis to underpin 3-4 models, with the MKZ sharing a FWD chassis with Ford. What the Genesis does it create a halo over the rest of the lineup. It isn't intended to set the sales charts on fire, just sell enough to get Hyundai's name out there as a maker of quality products. In that way it succeeds.

 

CAN the Big 3 build a car like this? Ford and GM can. Will they? No, they can't afford it and the volume isn't there.

 

The Hyundai shares audio and HVAC controls with lesser Hyundais, the window/mirror switches are shared, the wood is fake, the plastic for the bluetooth integration is nasty and what gives with the LCD clock from the '80s.