Critic Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 You weren't ripped off by Pontiac, you were ripped off by your dealer, and you were dumb enough to play along. Eh,, I saw it when he wrote it, but lets play along with him. DAMN MAN, Pontiac really ripped you off, I'd never buy from them again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snooter Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 You weren't ripped off by Pontiac, you were ripped off by your dealer, and you were dumb enough to play along. no..i was taken by GMAC which has "GM" plastered all over so in essence i still won...no GM product will ever be in our garage and my accord (actually had 3 accords since 1995) has been trouble free..GM nor chrysler nor ford can claim that history....good ridance pontiac...this day is better then cheap sex at a led zepplin concert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critic Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 no..i was taken by GMAC which has "GM" plastered all over so in essence i still won...no GM product will ever be in our garage and my accord (actually had 3 accords since 1995) has been trouble free..GM nor chrysler nor ford can claim that history....good ridance pontiac...this day is better then cheap sex at a led zepplin concert You get along ok with the neighbors in your trailer park? OH, hate to break the news to you on this one also, but, putting your money into 'vintage Honda motorcycles' only works for eBay sellers. Blame others for your own stupidity, it's the American way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron W. Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 So, has anyone explained how killing Pontiac helps out GM? Think about all the money they'll save on fender emblems. :shades: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 (edited) Think about all the money they'll save on fender emblems. :shades: Kind of my point...... GM could have gone Mercury with Pontiac (no exterior difference except the plastic panels and a few different stamping dies), and they would've been able to keep a channel open and they would've saved a ton of money on product development, but noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. GM would rather spend a fortune closing the brand. Could've done the same thing with Oldsmobile too, but noooooooooooo............ See, folks, this is why GM is in trouble. They don't, at the highest levels, understand how customers think. Edited April 28, 2009 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 Kind of my point...... One question, Rich. Do you think the bondholders will reach the 90% needed, or do you see bankruptcy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critic Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 GM could have gone Mercury with Pontiac (no exterior difference except the plastic panels and a few different stamping dies) I don't understand this.. Isn't the point that all GM has done for about 20 years was call the same car a Pontiac or a Buick or an Oldsmobile? So people stopped buying the Olds because they had become too high priced when you could get the same thing as a Chevy, and now it's still the same for Buick and Pontiac. So they have decided to Stop the branding and just have a Chevy Buick and Cadillac. I'd like to see them make all Pickups now GMC name brands and salvage the reputations. Yes, drop the Silverado and all pickups now carry GMC brand. Want a pickup? Go to a GMC store. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2005Explorer Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 Kind of my point...... GM could have gone Mercury with Pontiac (no exterior difference except the plastic panels and a few different stamping dies), and they would've been able to keep a channel open and they would've saved a ton of money on product development, but noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. GM would rather spend a fortune closing the brand. Could've done the same thing with Oldsmobile too, but noooooooooooo............ See, folks, this is why GM is in trouble. They don't, at the highest levels, understand how customers think. I agree. It doesn't take much to change the styling of a car. With the 2010 Fusion and Milan, Ford proves that two cars can have a unique style that will cater to different customers without a lot of expense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
630land Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 (edited) The bulk of their fan base crying foul are the guys with a GTO Judge in the garage while driving their Camry every day. You got that right. Either the above case, or they drive 90s Grand Ams, and never buy new. They expect the US Govt to just keep all the GM brands going just so they look at them at Auto SHows, or pictures, but not actaully buy! Anytime a new performance GM car comes, they say 'doesnt look like old one' or 'i cant afford it now, will get a used one in a few years'. Then cry when cars are canceled! Edited April 28, 2009 by 630land Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxman100 Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 Pontiac made a few vehicles I like - the G8 for myself, and the Vibe for my wife. Of course, the G8 GT has way too much horsepower for how I drive, but I'd go that way as a second choice over another Panther. Now it looks like both are going away, so I guess I'll buy used. Ford doesn't have anything like either the G8 or the Vibe, and I would not make the assumption that Pontiac buyers will still buy "domestic", whatever that may mean to customers today. I will give Ford props on the Escape over the Torrent - thought my wife likes it, I cannot buy a vehicle with a Chicom engine in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 One question, Rich. Do you think the bondholders will reach the 90% needed, or do you see bankruptcy? At this point, I think bankruptcy is all but inevitable. I haven't seen Henderson do a thing to prevent it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 Isn't the point that all GM has done for about 20 years was call the same car a Pontiac or a Buick or an Oldsmobile? Yeah, but they were all bad. Even at their worst in the late 90s and early 00s, Ford's Taurus/Sable were better than the GM W bodies. And if you look at, say, a 1998 Grand Prix, Century, and Lumina, they look quite a bit different. GM is stuck thinking that they need almost 100% different tooling for the G6 & Malibu, and they can't turn a profit on the G6 at that rate, so they flush that volume, shrink, and never stop to think, 'if the CAR was world-class we could sell it as a Pontiac and a Chevrolet, and people would buy it because it was GOOD' What GM needs is new thinking. Axing Pontiac is not 'new'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 At this point, I think bankruptcy is all but inevitable. I haven't seen Henderson do a thing to prevent it. +2 It's no longer a matter of if, but when... They're trying to put up a good show (we'll sell cars from the Heritage Museum to raise capital, we'll close all these brands and reduce nameplates), but really, they haven't done anything towards their goal: a viable GM. The only other thing I can figure is that a Buick/SAIC deal is in the works, so they'll inherit the B(P)G sales channel? I duno... they make it look so hard. It's like trying to tell the blind kid how to tie his shoes... you can see exactly what he needs to do, you can tell him exactly what he needs to do, but for agonizing amounts of time, you just watch him fumble... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critic Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 It's like trying to tell the blind kid how to tie his shoes... you can see exactly what he needs to do, you can tell him exactly what he needs to do, but for agonizing amounts of time, you just watch him fumble... Good analogy. So and but... if the shoe was turned, and it still may, imagine how people here would be blind to what Ford does. I mean, the waste on the MKT. I personally don't care if selling just 40K a year sounds good, when it could be much higher had then done more for it. So on that note I can not fault anyone for ripping into it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 Good analogy. So and but... if the shoe was turned, and it still may, imagine how people here would be blind to what Ford does. I mean, the waste on the MKT. I personally don't care if selling just 40K a year sounds good, when it could be much higher had then done more for it. So on that note I can not fault anyone for ripping into it. I don't think it's wise to rag on the MKT when it hasn't even hit the market yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critic Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 I do, I loved the concept pictures, but production pictures are a total let down to me. So I'm a Lincoln buyer, I want to buy Lincoln's. I wouldn't even go to a store to see this now. And on that note, Didn't i see Buick for China take the rear door kick up and turn it upside down and make it a rear door kick-down for their model? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 I don't think it's wise to rag on the MKT when it hasn't even hit the market yet. That and it's not nearly an apples to apples comparison... more like apples to rocket ships... Ford has gone through its restructuring brilliantly... they have made just about every right step. There is a little bit of wiggle room for individual product launches. GM on the other hand, has barely restructured at all, their corporate structure is still a hot mess, even though they have some good products. Remember: A well-managed restaurant can survive with one or two bad dishes. However, a poorly-managed restaurant will not be saved by some killer meatloaf. And, again, I think the MKT will do well. I certainly would like one in my garage... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 I do, I loved the concept pictures, but production pictures are a total let down to me. So I'm a Lincoln buyer, I want to buy Lincoln's. I wouldn't even go to a store to see this now. And on that note, Didn't i see Buick for China take the rear door kick up and turn it upside down and make it a rear door kick-down for their model? How do you know it doesn't look better in person, if all you've seen is pictures of both? And, yes Buick did put the kick up upside down "to conceal the door slider"....it has sliding rear doors. And, again, I think the MKT will do well. I certainly would like one in my garage... Wait a sec....I thought you wanted a Flex....... :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ford-150 Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 (edited) From hearing what some G8 enthusiasts are feeling...if Ford brought over the Falcon, I could see many of the non retarded G8/Pontiac faithful jumping ship and getting their hands on a Falcon. If Ford announced they will bring the Falcon over I would stop modding this great car of mine to save up and buy a Falcon FPV F6 Typhoon.... Otherwise I'm getting this car cammed and forgetting about the fact that I have a pretty rare car. Have not heard an G8/Pontiac enthusiasts mention getting a Charger...we sort of hate them lol. Edited April 28, 2009 by Ford-150 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 (edited) Hopefully, Falcon is the chocolate ice cream FNA gets once they eat all their brussel sprouts....... Edited April 28, 2009 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critic Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 Hopefully, Falcon is the chocolate ice cream FNA gets once they eat all their brussel sprouts....... Heyyyyyy.. I just planted some of these today, I think I'm going to enjoy them.. little salt, little butter... little vinegar... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ford-150 Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 Hopefully, Falcon is the chocolate ice cream FNA gets once they eat all their brussel sprouts....... I pray... American muscle does not look good from here on out. And I am not attracted to muscle coupes really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armadamaster Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 For once I am on the same page with you about Pontiac, RJ. What I do not comprehend is in having to choose between Pontiac and Buick, they chose to get rid of Pontiac? Pontiac died in 2002 with the Trans AM. All the rebadged Holden crap with ten year old styling styling was never going to return Pontiac to former glory, I said it then, and I'm saying it now. Sky/Solstice is some more impractical niche crap that never should have been. The whole NA Buick thing is what dumbfounds me, if Pontiac isn't worthy of survival, then Buick and Saturn should have been gone as well. Buick was doomed in NA in 2005 with the revival of the 1998 Oldsmobile sales plan that failed Olds, all new names, same ol' FWD rental car crap. I do disagree on ridiculing the MKT, it's full of fail just as much as any other D3 offering. (Except the forthcoming Taurus, the first D3 to have a shot in hell of making it) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mettech Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 For once I am on the same page with you about Pontiac, RJ. What I do not comprehend is in having to choose between Pontiac and Buick, they chose to get rid of Pontiac? Pontiac died in 2002 with the Trans AM. All the rebadged Holden crap with ten year old styling styling was never going to return Pontiac to former glory, I said it then, and I'm saying it now. Sky/Solstice is some more impractical niche crap that never should have been. The whole NA Buick thing is what dumbfounds me, if Pontiac isn't worthy of survival, then Buick and Saturn should have been gone as well. Buick was doomed in NA in 2005 with the revival of the 1998 Oldsmobile sales plan that failed Olds, all new names, same ol' FWD rental car crap. I do disagree on ridiculing the MKT, it's full of fail just as much as any other D3 offering. (Except the forthcoming Taurus, the first D3 to have a shot in hell of making it) The decision was based on the future, and the future of GM is in China. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mettech Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 "Legacy costs" weren't a problem until sales tanked. And they are only a problem now because GM didn't invest in retiree health care or the pension fund. Not to mention, they paid for all the hourly buyouts with money out of the pension fund. They did this to themselves. Stop blaming the workers. It takes two for a contract. The UAW shares "some" the blame. :reading: When a company needs a 12 million unit market to make a profit, the overhead is to high. :reading: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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