The idiocy of a compact Lincoln

[ausrutherford]

My hunch is C Segment SUV, new Navigator and a Town Car replacement...

The last two could be on either D3 or Territory/Falcon for uniqueness in North America..

 

Wescoent has said Lincoln is going to be replacing the Town car with an MkT that has 4 captain chairs. Not that I dont think that they should make a legit replacement of D4 itself.

[jpd80]

 

Cadillac threw $5B at the youth market, and have a vehicle (the CTS) that is better than anything that Lincoln has ever produced--when you bench race it--and they can't make inroads with the youth market.

 

A self serving article but this is what is attracting younger buyers.

Maybe Ecoboost engine options are more important than introducing

more vehicle sizes...

 

ECOBOOST ENGINE ATTRACTS YOUNGER BUYERS TO FORD; DRIVES HIGHER CONQUEST SALES

 

Lincoln MKS with EcoBoost – along with Taurus SHO – is helping attract more 35- to 55-year-old males, a demographic the company has been working hard to bring back to the Ford fold. "Our sedans with EcoBoost are improving traffic with this demographic that has eluded Ford in recent years," confirmed Marentic. This group of shoppers, in fact, represents nearly 35 percent of Lincoln MKS with EcoBoost buyers, which is more than 5 percentage points higher than the MKS equipped with the 3.7-liter engine. For Taurus SHO, it's above 40 percent, more than double the 35- to 55-year-old males that purchase a base-model Taurus.

 

Other customers making the jump to Ford vehicles are hitting the Flex with EcoBoost equally hard; three out of four buyers are trading in a competitive product, including the Toyota Highlander, GMC Acadia and Chevy Traverse.

 

Edited June 6, 2010 by jpd80

[RichardJensen]

Dont dis the Middle East market. Ford sales were up there 45% last quarter.

Yeah, and if I got a 50% raise from $4 an hour to $6 an hour, I'd still be getting paid diddly squat.

[RichardJensen]

A self serving article but this is what is attracting younger buyers.

Actually, I think electronics will bring in more young customers than ecoboost, but it's still very very much an 'establishment' brand, and unlike Old Spice, it's too big ticket to change perception overnight--or even over the course of a decade.

[jpd80]

Actually, I think electronics will bring in more young customers than ecoboost, but it's still very very much an 'establishment' brand, and unlike Old Spice, it's too big ticket to change perception overnight--or even over the course of a decade.

That's what I mean, it's not the vehicles as such, it's what's going into them that matters more.

GM spent all that cash on Sigma RWDs and now they look antiques compared to the technology in Ford and Lincoln.

 

Perhaps the real battle is in the customer experience, how the car feels and what all the technology enables drivers to do. Maybe we focus too much on certain aspects of a vehicle without remembering why people buy Lincolns,Cadillacs, Lexus.

Edited June 6, 2010 by jpd80

[ausrutherford]

Yeah, and if I got a 50% raise from $4 an hour to $6 an hour, I'd still be getting paid diddly squat.

 

Im pretty sure its alot more than that. More than india for sure.

[RichardJensen]

That's what I mean, it's not the vehicles as such, it's what's going into them that matters more.

Well, the name still carries a -lot- of weight.

 

But if you're going to try and capture new buyers, you can do so by trying to best your competition at their strengths (e.g. Sigma taking on BMW), or you can do the Wee Willie Keeler thing, and 'hit 'em where they ain't.'

 

Suffice to say that iDrive is not exactly a selling point for -any- BMW product--therefore Lincoln has a plausible opportunity with electronics.

 

But there's a need to be realistic. You certainly don't want to throw a fortune at the project and achieve incrementally better results than a more modest investment.

[RichardJensen]

Im pretty sure its alot more than that. More than india for sure.

 

Which is why Ford is making cars specifically for the middle east, right? And why Ford has manufacturing plants in the middle east, right? or is it India?

 

The middle east is a stagnant and stagnating place.

 

When was the last time you heard -any- economy from Morocco to Pakistan described as 'emerging', apart from Turkey?

[ausrutherford]

Which is why Ford is making cars specifically for the middle east, right? And why Ford has manufacturing plants in the middle east, right? or is it India?

 

The middle east is a stagnant and stagnating place.

 

When was the last time you heard -any- economy from Morocco to Pakistan described as 'emerging', apart from Turkey?

 

O so Ford should just be ignoring all the oil rich billionaires there?

[rmc523]

I hate the MKT, it looks like a hunchback, no wonder it isn't selling.

Relaunch it with a decent trunk and watch the sales rise.

 

Kuga in AUS isn't planned until 2012 now and Gen III Focus is back to mid 2011.

 

 

I know you were in the US a while back, but have you seen one in person? It looks better in person than it does in pictures.

 

So what you're getting at is that manufacturers take a swing at producing compact luxury cars

but they always seem to miss the proper mix of design features for USA audiences?

 

Or...

 

They design compacts for European/global markets and then try to push them

onto US customers without adequately researching their specific needs?

 

Either of the above sounds highly plausible...

 

I'd agree that either are plausible, perhaps leaning toward the latter.

[RichardJensen]

O so Ford should just be ignoring all the oil rich billionaires there?

 

Did I say that?

 

But the reality is that oil based economies are lousy and stagnant, by and large.

 

And I can think of few people less likely to buy a compact Lincolns than oil billionaires.

 

They are far more likely to buy bullet proof Town Cars (see earlier link) than some Focus derived compact.

[MKII]

RJ you make a good business case for Ford to shutter Lincoln as well. Unless of course each Lincoln vehicle is carrying its own cost.

 

With .new focus on fuel efficiency and CO2 emissions that will affect weight and size,do you think the regulations will encourage manufacturers who offer luxury cars in the USA to downsize ?

 

Seems the Euro boys BMW, MB, Audi. Volvo are in the planning stages of such decisions.

 

Does Lincoln have to offer a small car just because all the other companies that offer luxury cars in USA are either planning or considering smaller entries in their USA lineup

EG:BMW is considering selling a front-drive car slotted below the 1 series based off the FWD Mini platform, Mercedes may offer its next-generation B class which MB stated has been homologated for U.S. sales, Audi quashed the idea of the A1 series for USA, but Audi said they could bring the slightly larger A2 to America if a new generation of the vehicle is approved for production. Volvo, is considering a smaller sedan for USA . And I believe Lexus is considering the C segment hybrid hatch for USA that they showed at Frankfurt.

 

Maybe none of these companies end up slotting in smaller cars in their USA fleets, but I would think Lincoln would need to make the same noise if it considers itself a player, yes,no?

Edited June 6, 2010 by MKII

[jpd80]

Well, the name still carries a -lot- of weight.

 

But if you're going to try and capture new buyers, you can do so by trying to best your competition at their strengths (e.g. Sigma taking on BMW), or you can do the Wee Willie Keeler thing, and 'hit 'em where they ain't.'

 

Suffice to say that iDrive is not exactly a selling point for -any- BMW product--therefore Lincoln has a plausible opportunity with electronics.

 

But there's a need to be realistic. You certainly don't want to throw a fortune at the project and achieve incrementally better results than a more modest investment.

The best way forward for Lincoln is to be incremental, whenever something new

can be added for a refresh, them they should do it and let the world know.

It may not take a decade if Ford get the lead out and start being seen as making

changes that appeal to people, electronics is strong, fuel efficiency and power is another.

 

Richard, would Lincoln sales improve with some push advertising?

We spoke about this re Taurus sales a fair while back, I think it could really work for Lincoln.

Edited June 6, 2010 by jpd80

[AlRozzi]

I still have to say I don't believe expensive tiny cars will be anything more than a niche.

 

Americans are fat and getting fatter. They just don't want small.

 

I'll keep saying it over and over; the company that gets Fiesta fuel mileage out of a Taurus will win the sales race.

 

Or, if there is a new way to power cars, like say fuel cells, people will scoff at Fiesta/Ka size cars.

 

Tiny cars are only good for large metro areas. Hence, the Geo Metro car name of the past.

[Ford Jellymoulds]

Yeah. They sell the Crown Vic there too.

 

Doesn't mean the Crown Vic has a 'global distribution'.

 

 

They don't want compact Lincolns. What part of the previous zillion posts about this have you missed? Tiny luxury products aren't as popular as full size luxury products in these markets:

 

 

 

http://online.wsj.co...1466335620.html

 

The most expensive Lincoln sold overseas, the one that was in highest demand?

 

http://money.cnn.com.../autos/lincoln/

 

China doesn't need, doesn't want, some pipsqueak Lincoln.

 

Thats just about total sum of a few markets for big Lincoln cars outside North America a few oil rich & heavily subsidized Chinese government oil that they won't be able to subsidize to forever as inflation rises, price of gas getting higher as oil starts to run dry & with Honda workers wanting 24% pay rises every year.

 

BMW & Mercedes sell to thousands of other countries called "The the rest of the world", l can't understand why you thing Lincoln should be a company that just sells to just a "few" Richard, thats not the way Lincoln should operate by all means bring back the Lincoln Continental (A stretched Taurus) for a few rich Arab sheiks but hit the rest of the REAL world with COMPACT Lincolns as well on mass.

Fords biggest best selling cars in China are not the biG US Ford Taurus it the compact Focus & Fiesta they love SMallll COompact FOrds Richard.

 

In countries like Japan its sad to say Ford are totally out of touch with the market they are selling into they are totally OUT OF TUNE trying to force feed the Japanese big North American Escapes, Mustangs & Explorers (Why no BIG Lincolns LOL) when most of the country buy drive 550cc cars, Ford are out of tune no wonder they only sell a 200 cars a month there.

 

 

BMW 7 Series was the No1 best selling luxury car in the Middle East in 2009 with just 4,000 sales in a year that won't make BMW or Lincoln rich.

LINK

 

Its the millions of COMPACT BMW 3 Series that makes all the money, BMW RWD 3 Series was the No6 best selling car in the UK last month our crap Mondeo never made the top 10 again the BMW holds its price so would a compact RWD Lincoln if given the option Brits would buy it on mass, the Mondeo value drops by 70% in a few years most end up worthless £10 junk on eBay after 10 years, BMW 3 Series diesels return nearly 70 MPG & gasoline Mondeo's struggle to 40 MPG we need a smaller more COMPACT Mondeo with smaller Ecoboost engines and a major charisma & mojo transfusion if it its going to ever be top of Europe & UK sales charts for a decade a position Taunus/Cortina sales king once held.

 

 

70 MPG Diesel RWD 3 Series Beamers a car Brits want FOE, UK No6 best seller. What happened to the Mundaneo in May bloody nowhere again.

LINK

 

Sad to say if Lincoln chases 300 sales a year in the Middle East & 3 sales a year in Japan with BIG gas guzzlers only, Lincoln will join a long list of once great exciting American branded cars that have failed since early 2000's when Plymouth started a long list of Epic failures of once great US car brands.

 

The last decade has been an absolute disgrace to watch so many failures happen in the US, 61% of the US market are now buying new 4-pot COMPACTS wake up Lincoln or your become another Mercury in a history book of once great American car companies.

Edited June 6, 2010 by Ford Jellymoulds

[Biker16]

 

 

 

There's no way on EARTH you could know that---furthermore, you haven't furnished an ounce of statistical support in favor of YOUR position.

 

You have this idea that people don't want the 1-Series because it's 'cheap'-----explain to me, then, why BMW can charge over $30k for a sedan that has VINYL SEATS and SELL IT IN QUANTITY?

 

It's not the cheapness that's the issue with the 1-Series. It's the size

 

As I've noted earlier, the question is one of consumer dynamics: what 'progressive' individual is going to DOWNSIZE to a compact when he buys a luxury car?

 

 

What Stats have you provided that actually proves your point, realize your argument is the same one used against making the US focus a premium compact. your Faux Rules of min volume is out of touch with today's market, how does Toyota stay in business making soo few XBs and XDs and FJ Cruisiers. you have in the past argued against the C1 focus, and For the design of the 500. you obviously have the pulse of the market, right?

 

Your examples of FAILED compact luxury cars A3, S30, and now the 1series. is weak.

 

The a3 is dumpy looking and does not aspire buyer other than it's badge.

 

The S30 is a 2 door S40/V50, how can include one but not the other, since both are based on the Focus. The s30 is cramped, and not very luxurious, more sport than luxury, not very practical as a daily driver.

 

the 1 series is a coupe, and only available as a convertible and coupe. this does not match demographics of the US which has been moving away from coupes for some time.

 

none of those cars are tiny. they are solid C cars less than 10inches shorter than the A4. and in fact the 3 series 178in long is only 3 inches longer than the Fiesta sedan.

[RichardJensen]

RJ you make a good business case for Ford to shutter Lincoln as well. Unless of course each Lincoln vehicle is carrying its own cost.

That should ALWAYS be the rule.

[RichardJensen]

What Stats have you provided that actually proves your point, realize your argument is the same one used against making the US focus a premium compact.

There's a huge difference between a Focus that tops out at $25k and a compact Lincoln that starts at $26.

 

The entry level compact sedan market is as gigantic and diverse as the compact luxury market is small.

 

your Faux Rules of min volume is out of touch with today's market

But in touch with volumes necessary for a standalone product.

 

Say the ATP for the Lincoln Focus is $30k. Say Ford sells 1,000 of them a month.

 

You think they'll pay off the hundreds of millions spent on custom tooling on that kind of volume? Let alone the cost of all the unique interior bits that they will be buying in small quantities?

 

Your examples of FAILED compact luxury cars A3, S30, and now the 1series. is weak.

 

The a3 is dumpy looking and does not aspire buyer other than it's badge.

 

The S30 is a 2 door S40/V50, how can include one but not the other, since both are based on the Focus. The s30 is cramped, and not very luxurious, more sport than luxury, not very practical as a daily driver.

 

the 1 series is a coupe, and only available as a convertible and coupe. this does not match demographics of the US which has been moving away from coupes for some time.

The point is that they're ALL FAILURES.

 

You can't dismiss my examples because they're failures. Judge for yourself whether it's appropriate to say, "You can't count failures because the Ford product won't be a failure" or "Failures just mean nobody's figured out what works."

 

none of those cars are tiny. they are solid C cars less than 10inches shorter than the A4. and in fact the 3 series 178in long is only 3 inches longer than the Fiesta sedan.

By luxury standards, they're tiny.

 

And BMW and Audi get more for their COMPACT A4 & 3-Series than Lincoln gets for its MIDSIZE MKZ.

 

----

 

And I already explained why I left out the V50 & the S40: Because the ONLY compact Lincoln concept shown to date is the ghastly Pacer-redux MKC--a vehicle that shares the ungainly proportions of the A3 and C30.

 

A compact Lincoln SEDAN would have slightly better odds of success than the MKC, but the only C-segment Lincoln with a snowball's chance is a CUV.

[ausrutherford]

^^^

A Compact Lincoln wouldnt start at 26K...32K i would say at least.

 

The MkC does not share the deminsiions of the A3 or C30. The MkC is huge, bigger than a 64 Continental on the inside. It will sell more than what you give it, youll see.

[RichardJensen]

And you're right, Biker. SIX YEARS AGO, I did praise the Five Hundred's design. But I learned a valuable lesson from the Fusion.

 

Regarding the C1, you're being more than a bit disingenuous. I never said it was bad, I merely said it wasn't necessary for success in the US. Sales of the C170 Focus since its update have more than supported that argument.

[RichardJensen]

^^^

A Compact Lincoln wouldnt start at 26K...32K i would say at least.

 

The MkC does not share the deminsiions of the A3 or C30. The MkC is huge, bigger than a 64 Continental on the inside. It will sell more than what you give it, youll see.

 

The MKC is closer in size to the A3 than it is to any other product.

 

And don't try and impress me by quoting size figures from sixties cars. They had TERRIBLE space utilization back then. Compare any car built before the '77 Caprice with the '77 Caprice.

 

Every passenger car being built today is descended first from the '77 Caprice and second from the '86 Taurus.

[Edstock]

the ghastly Pacer-redux MKC

Pacer-redux — cruel, but you do have a point.

[jpd80]

But in touch with volumes necessary for a standalone product.

 

Say the ATP for the Lincoln Focus is $30k. Say Ford sells 1,000 of them a month.

 

You think they'll pay off the hundreds of millions spent on custom tooling on that kind of volume? Let alone the cost of all the unique interior bits that they will be buying in small quantities?

 

Here's the thing I'm trying to get my head around:

1) In 2008, Milan and MKZ both sold around 2,500/month or 30,000 for the whole year.

2) The styling cost over Fusion for the Milan (c. $50M) is far less than the MKZ (c. $300M)

3) Price difference over Fusion for Milan (c. $2K) is a lot less than MKZ (c. $16K)

 

Is that extra money expended on Lincoln justified for the return on development costs?

At 30,000 a year, Ford probably make a good return out of it but at some low point

it is not workable (perhaps 15,000/year?)

So , unless a compact Lincoln can sell at similar numbers to MKZ it hardly justifies the effort....

 

It's more likely to be a compact SUV like a new Mariner that's being switched to Lincoln.

Edited June 6, 2010 by jpd80

[Pioneer]

Wescoent has said.......

 

Didn't he say that Mercury wasn't going anywhere?

 

Seriously, I think you put too much faith into what this person says.

[ausrutherford]

Didn't he say that Mercury wasn't going anywhere?

 

Seriously, I think you put too much faith into what this person says.

 

Its pretty clear that they just now decided to Kill Mercury now. A couple months ago it was a different story.