The idiocy of a compact Lincoln

[rmc523]

I think that scenario is far fetched, but I just don't know what their plans are as far as volume. Will the standalone Lincoln dealers be able to survive selling possibly as little as 50% of the volume they sold the year before? I can't stop thinking that they have some plan for incremental product to hold dealers over until these new Lincolns arrive.

 

Yeah, I see what you're saying. As I said somewhere else (or maybe even in this thread, I don't remember), it's not like all the Mercuries are going to disappear overnight either, so they'll still have Mercury inventory to sell down. When does production of Mercury models end? Was it this summer? So ideally, it'll be about a year before any Lincoln CUV or whatever comes along to help out I guess?

[PREMiERdrum]

Yeah, I see what you're saying. As I said somewhere else (or maybe even in this thread, I don't remember), it's not like all the Mercuries are going to disappear overnight either, so they'll still have Mercury inventory to sell down. When does production of Mercury models end? Was it this summer? So ideally, it'll be about a year before any Lincoln CUV or whatever comes along to help out I guess?

 

Mercury production will be wound down by Q4 of this year, so I can't see much inventory lasting into 2011. I think that the Escape replacement is supposed to start production in late 2011 with wide availability in early 2012, which is why 2011 is the year I'm worried about for dealers.

[RichardJensen]

They could always try to sell Fords as well...

 

The 700 or so dealers that don't have a Ford franchise can't sell Fords.

[2b2]

I meant the vehicle itself - I could care less what it was named - that thing was awesome!

gotcha & won't argue with that

 

I think that scenario is far fetched, but I just don't know what their plans are as far as volume. Will the standalone Lincoln dealers be able to survive selling possibly as little as 50% of the volume they sold the year before? I can't stop thinking that they have some plan for incremental product to hold dealers over until these new Lincolns arrive.

afaik, from what I sorta-read,

the Lincoln C-car IS coming out on the C557-Tracer's schedule next year.

We DON'T know how closely the C557 resembled the new Focus - there ARE 3 versions of the C3 platform coming:

- Focus/C-Max - SHORT

- GRAND C-Max - LONG

- KuGa - TALL

maybe there's even a 4th SWOOPY version? :shades:

[rmc523]

Alright, here's more "crayola drawings" for Pioneer - the front of the new Lincoln MKG, an Escape/Kuga-based crossover (or at least what I'd do):

 

 

 

Compared to the original image:

 

 

 

 

One of my biggest issues with the C is that it's not proportioned very well, at least IMO. I fixed that with this chop and made it a crossover.

 

I'll also list a few of the differences if you can't tell:

-the aforementioned 'proportion adjustments'

-raised the vehicle

-raised the shoulder and adjusted it's angle (and door handles) to get rid of the hunch/hump back in the rear, and to help with the overall look

-increased mirror size to more realistic size

-lowered the front portion of the beltline to more closely match the new shoulder line

-adjusted the rake of the rear window to give it a more swoopy look (this may not be very evident in this picture though)

 

I hope to have an updated rear view in the next couple days to accompany this chop and fix that ugly butt on the C.

Edited June 11, 2010 by rmc523

[Ford Jellymoulds]

Bring back the Lincoln Continental as a compact it can still offer fun, 70 mpg diesel power, luxury and a bit of room inside as well.

 

 

 

Edited June 11, 2010 by Ford Jellymoulds

[jpd80]

The 700 or so dealers that don't have a Ford franchise can't sell Fords.

That number is now under 300.

Over 1400 M-L dealerships also have a Ford franchise as well.

 

 

 

Production ready Supercharged Coyote GT Falcons under test in Australia

 

 

Edited June 11, 2010 by jpd80

[lfeg]

Well, this tpic seems to be taking on a life of its own.

 

Whatever, If Lincoln has pretentions of ever competing anywhere other than North America, and even in North America in the post gulf oil disaster period, a "right sized" (C size car is a very amorphous term nowadays) Lincoln is pretty much needed. And not necessarily as an entry level offering. The MKZ is the only entry level offering they need. That was its purpose when launched, to be the "affordable" Lincoln. And give the poor thing a decent name!, MKZ falls off of the tongue like 5 pounds of hot lead, nothing gracefull or elegant about it. A new Lincoln offering about the same size as the MKZ, maybe a bit smaller (or even the same length) with the design optimized to give as much interior space as possible, a pleasing but distinct exterior, and a knockout interior that is stylistically and physically different than any other competitive car out there (look at the interior of the Concept C again, just the interior - forget the exterior) can go a long way to re-establishing Lincoln as a design leader. In todays world, a distinctive exterior draws the initial glance, but the interior is where you can be creative and really hook the buyer.

 

Lincoln never was, is not, and never should be a full line entity. Throught their history they have done aspirational very well, and they can do it again. Lincoln does not have to generate huge volume sales, and trying to can just dilute its value. Puting Lincoln in with Ford in the stores can increase Ford sales just as they did for Mercury for years. The Lincoln draws in the dreamers. Those who can swing it drive out with one, thosw who cannot can be put in a Ford (that might share some of the Lincoln's features, but not all), but keep dreaming of the day they can drive out in the Lincoln of their dreams.

 

Not idiocy, but sound business. I and many others have no use for a Corvette, but we still go the the Chevrolet (dig intended) dealer when a new version hits the floor. Lincoln can do the same for Ford. When the traffic is there, you have more opportunity to sell, just ask those who do the selling.

Edited June 11, 2010 by lfeg

[nelsonlu]

I'm curious, too, how Lincoln dealers will weather 2011... While it's easy to complain about Mercury's obvious rebadges, it was also responsible for more than half of Lincoln/Mercury's volume. I know that the plan to sell the imported Lincoln Kuga was cancelled because of unfavorable exchange rates, but has anything changed that would make it more feasible now?

 

 

They could always try to sell Fords as well... I know that there are Mercury owners who allegedly will never buy a Ford, but if they would have been attracted by the Milan, is it really going to be terribly difficult to get them into a Fusion? (Certainly I preferred the looks of a Milan but didn't have any problem buying a Fusion.)

 

 

The 700 or so dealers that don't have a Ford franchise can't sell Fords.

 

As Ford referred to in the press release, some (and I assume a majority) will be offered Ford franchises. If they accept, then they can sell Fords.

[akirby]

I don't think they are going to just simply rebadge since there will be many changes, however I'm not sure about 100% unique sheetmetal when you are talking C segment vehicles. I could see things like doors and roof panels being shared to cut costs. I'm also unsure about the whole exclusive engines deal. A Ford engine is a Ford engine. I suppose they could offer a different size or maybe an EcoBoost when one is not offered in the Ford branded vehicle, but I doubt it. If the Lincoln has an EcoBoost chances are the Ford branded vehicle will also have one available. Currently the only case I can think of where Lincoln has an exclusive engine is the 3.7 in the MKS. I guess the MKX is also going to get the 3.7, but since you can get an available 3.7 in the 2011 Edge Sport it is not really exclusive.

 

What makes you think they're out to "cut costs" on a new model by sharing the greenhouse? Especially when they've gone out of their way NOT to do that on both the MKS and MKT - the only "new" Lincolns to debut the last 2 years. They've said no more sheetmetal sharing and they've done that so far - I don't understand why that's so freakin' hard for some folks to believe. Now if they said it but didn't do it that would be a different story.

 

As for engines - how about a ecoboost 3.7L while ford gets the 3.5L? You can also take any Ford engine and add DI and a premium tune and get another 20 hp easily to differentiate them.

[RichardJensen]

a "right sized" (C size car is a very amorphous term nowadays) Lincoln is pretty much needed.

 

Why?

 

Lincoln has zero chance of getting 'cred' in Europe, and the most popular luxury cars in emerging markets are the big iron, not the compacts.

 

The MKZ fuel efficiency is already about the same as the compact BMW 3-series. The hybrid will put it in a whole other league, and will probably outsell the Fusion hybrid.

[NickF1011]

The hybrid will put it in a whole other league, and will probably outsell the Fusion hybrid.

 

Now that I seriously doubt.

[RichardJensen]

Now that I seriously doubt.

 

Depends on availability and markup.

 

I'm assuming the hybrid upgrade will be less of a reach for a Lincoln buyer than a Fusion buyer, and that's the basis for my projection that there will be more demand for the MKZ hybrid.

 

Not to mention the much more noticeable jump in MPG for the MKZ hybrid (there's no 4-cylinder MKZ to shop against the MKZ hybrid)

[akirby]

Depends on availability and markup.

 

I'm assuming the hybrid upgrade will be less of a reach for a Lincoln buyer than a Fusion buyer, and that's the basis for my projection that there will be more demand for the MKZ hybrid.

 

Not to mention the much more noticeable jump in MPG for the MKZ hybrid (there's no 4-cylinder MKZ to shop against the MKZ hybrid)

 

You might get the same percentage of MKZ buyers opting for the hybrid as Fusion buyers, but Ford sells WAY more Fusions than MKZs. The MKZ would need a 4 to 5 times higher percentage take rate just to match Fusion hybrid sales.

[RichardJensen]

You might get the same percentage of MKZ buyers opting for the hybrid as Fusion buyers, but Ford sells WAY more Fusions than MKZs. The MKZ would need a 4 to 5 times higher percentage take rate just to match Fusion hybrid sales.

 

I think it will be a significantly higher percentage, -significantly- higher.

[jpd80]

I think it will be a significantly higher percentage, -significantly- higher.

 

Yes, with regards to the proportions of base cars shared with Luxury lines

hybrid uptake is better than conventional vehicles , buyers are less price sensitive to it.

You might end up selling say, 3,000 MKZ but 500 or so might be Hybrids...

 

 

that's why a "Mariner" and its hybrid version would probably do OK as Lincolns...

Edited June 11, 2010 by jpd80

[timmm55]

I think a new small Lincoln would be great. But it can't look anything like a Ford. If it's based on the MKC it would have to be restyled some, but the idea is there. If the handling/performance is above par and the Big interior/Small size remains it could be a new segment.

 

The MKC is something Cadillac doesn't have, and different enough from the small BMW etc. Lincoln needs to be back on the map......quick. Lincoln will need more than this. They also need a real flagship. The MKS (the next version) would be a nice middle ground.

 

Lincoln needs to be broader from both ends. Innovative and competitive. Yet distinctly "Lincoln" in design.

[jpd80]

Current global C1 Focus has about the same or slightly more internal room as a Contour,

that may help some of you visualize the interior space of the coming Focus.

 

Hypothetical

If compact Lincoln built as a 2" x 2" stretch of the C1 Focus it would be a possible MKZ replacement

If mid sized Lincoln built as a 2" x 2" stretch of the CD4 Fusion it would be a possible MKZS replacement

If full sized Lincoln built as a 117" wheelbase version of D3 Taurus it would be a possible Town Car replacement

 

All of those vehicles would give Lincoln complete distinctiveness and efficiency

edges over similar Ford vehicles. With entirely new sheet metal, they would

have completely different identities. All of the above is achievable using either

existing or near future platforms.

Edited June 11, 2010 by jpd80

[2005Explorer]

What makes you think they're out to "cut costs" on a new model by sharing the greenhouse? Especially when they've gone out of their way NOT to do that on both the MKS and MKT - the only "new" Lincolns to debut the last 2 years. They've said no more sheetmetal sharing and they've done that so far - I don't understand why that's so freakin' hard for some folks to believe. Now if they said it but didn't do it that would be a different story.

 

As for engines - how about a ecoboost 3.7L while ford gets the 3.5L? You can also take any Ford engine and add DI and a premium tune and get another 20 hp easily to differentiate them.

 

I don't think they are out to cut costs when you are talking about top of the line MKS and MKT models. I think when you start looking at C-segment sedans or CUV's the profit margins are much slimmer. If you invest mega bucks into C-segment vehicles and then only sell a few thousand a month you are not going to make a profit. I am not talking about a rebadge all I am saying is I would not be suprised to see more sharing when you go down the line to the smaller models. I don't understand why you can't understand that the profit margin is much smaller when you are talking a C-segment vehicle compared to a full sized sedan or CUV. If they spend too much in development of these new small Lincolns they are going to be losing money and Ford is all about making money these days.

 

I understand that the MKS is supposed to have different sheetmetal compared to the Taurus, but the Taurus became much closer to the MKS in design after the last redesign. The MKT is completely different (for better or worse) then the Flex. I won't argue that.

 

Sure they can do that with the engines, but people will demand the same kind of performance is available in the Ford models. They have tried to give Lincoln unique powertrains over the years, but it seems demand and competition from other brands causes them to give the Ford models the same powertrain options. When it comes to powertrains there is no reason to detune the Ford just to make the Lincoln look better.

[2b2]

Hypothetical

If compact Lincoln built as a 2" x 2" stretch of the C1 Focus it would be a possible MKZ replacement

If mid sized Lincoln built as a 2" x 2" stretch of the CD4 Fusion it would be a possible MKZS replacement

If full sized Lincoln built as a 117" wheelbase version of D3 Taurus it would be a possible Town Car replacement

that's a very interesting take, Jpd

 

just hope in addition to drivetrains differences, they include some suspension uniqueness for all Lincolns (kinda thinking of an equivalent sport-ride-float version of the Explorer's traction control knob)

those ^ plus your size/volume changes would sound like a trifecta of "mechanical differentiation" to me

(which imho is as important as styling &or interior luxury)

Edited June 12, 2010 by 2b2

[jpd80]

that's a very interesting take, Jpd

 

just hope in addition to drivetrains differences, they include some suspension uniqueness for all Lincolns (kinda thinking of an equivalent sport-ride-float version of the Explorer's traction control knob)

those ^ plus your size/volume changes would sound like a trifecta of "mechanical differentiation" to me

(which imho is as important as styling &or interior luxury)

I read somewhere that they are talking active suspension for Lincoln so yeah,

why couldn't Lincoln be at the forefront of Ford's emerging technology:

- Space efficient design for maximum room on lighter vehicle

- Ecoboost engines and hybrid versions available on every model

- Impressive sheet metal, interiors and electronics that put Lincoln over the top.

- Active suspension/air ride luxury ride that is tuneable from the driver's seat.

[RichardJensen]

Current global C1 Focus has about the same or slightly more internal room as a Contour,

that may help some of you visualize the interior space of the coming Focus.

 

Hypothetical

If compact Lincoln built as a 2" x 2" stretch of the C1 Focus it would be a possible MKZ replacement

If mid sized Lincoln built as a 2" x 2" stretch of the CD4 Fusion it would be a possible MKZS replacement

If full sized Lincoln built as a 117" wheelbase version of D3 Taurus it would be a possible Town Car replacement

 

All of those vehicles would give Lincoln complete distinctiveness and efficiency

edges over similar Ford vehicles. With entirely new sheet metal, they would

have completely different identities. All of the above is achievable using either

existing or near future platforms.

making platforms wider is pretty expensive. Don't think it would be justified.

[Mysterio]

making platforms wider is pretty expensive. Don't think it would be justified.

 

I know they are going to build the Taurus and the Fusion on CD4, or at least that's the speculation.

 

So a MKS would be stretched MKZ/rebadged Taurus?

[jpd80]

making platforms wider is pretty expensive. Don't think it would be justified.

Ford did it with CD3 Fusion but I have no idea how much it cost to increase

and change the Mazda 6 into a Fusion...

 

OK, I know it's easy to spit ball ideas on the net but someone has to pay

the dollars for all that work, the only way I could see the idea having a

chance is through the Lincoln size increases possibly being used by Ford

as an upgrade part way through or near the end of the product cycle.

Edited June 12, 2010 by jpd80

[MKII]

I read somewhere that they are talking active suspension for Lincoln so yeah,

why couldn't Lincoln be at the forefront of Ford's emerging technology:

 

Like the Interactive Vehicle Dynamics Control ( IVDC) active suspension system with Continuously Controlled Damping (CCD)

offered in the S-Max,Galaxy and Mondeo?