Debate: Did Ford pull the plug on Mercury prematurely?

[FordBuyer]

So whats the point of Having Caddy and Lincoln? if Ford and Chevy want to be in the likes of Lexus, Mercedes and BMW then lets get rid of those and invest 100% in Ford/Chevy and see what happens no need to support extra brands if you ONE brand can appeal to all... I dont see how doing that doesnt make sense based on what most of you are saying.

 

You may have a point since it's pretty easy to max out a Taurus, Flex, new Explorer, Edge, and Mustang GT into $40,000+ territory. The lines are increasingly blurring. And with hybrids, plug-in hybrids, and EVs coming in increasing numbers over next few years, luxury vehicles are making far less sense in general. In next 10 years with CAFE rules getting ever more stringent and carbon rules a possibility, luxury division days may be numbered. Another reason why I think Mulally pulled the plug on the wrong division. Ford has spent a lot of money on Lincoln in last few years with new MKS, MKT, MKX, and MKZ and has not much to show for it. Ford didn't spend any money on Mercury and it still did better. And Mercury fits in better with new rules coming and new way of looking at transportation. Frugality is the new mantra. Not showy extravagance. Mercury could have been understated elegance with European flair.

[NickF1011]

And what does Lincoln have to show? The fact that their lower end discontinued cousin keeps kicking its ass in sales?

 

For being completely product-starved, they are doing wonderfully well by comparison. Lincoln, by all indications, makes money. Yes, their lower end (aka significantly cheaper) brand sells better. I'll go back to the ridiculous Ferrari comment I made earlier. I'm sure Mercury outsells Ferrari too. Maybe Ferrari should be discontinued by that logic?

 

And well, I wouldn't say Mercury is "kicking its ass" in sales. Through June, Mercury has sold a whopping 7000 more vehicles than Lincoln -- at much lower ATP's. For some perspective: The Ford Edge outsells all of Mercury all by itself. NEITHER brand is doing spectacularly well in terms of sales totals.

[FordBuyer]

For being completely product-starved, they are doing wonderfully well by comparison. Lincoln, by all indications, makes money. Yes, their lower end (aka significantly cheaper) brand sells better. I'll go back to the ridiculous Ferrari comment I made earlier. I'm sure Mercury outsells Ferrari too. Maybe Ferrari should be discontinued by that logic?

 

And well, I wouldn't say Mercury is "kicking its ass" in sales. Through June, Mercury has sold a whopping 7000 more vehicles than Lincoln -- at much lower ATP's. For some perspective: The Ford Edge outsells all of Mercury all by itself. NEITHER brand is doing spectacularly well in terms of sales totals.

 

Let's see now....Lincoln got four new products in last few years although yes it lost a couple in the Aviator and LS. But you could say the MKZ replaced the LS and the MKX replaced the Aviator. And it kept the Navigator making five products with four all new. Mercury on other hand lost the Monterey, Cougar, Sable, and was about to lose the Mountaineer and GM. Even without the Mountaineer which was down to a few hudred sales, Mercury still outsold Lincoln. With GM, Sable, Mariner, Milan, and new small Mercury, Mercury could have sold at least 12,000 vehicles/month in bad economy and perhaps over 15,000/month in good economy if not more. Back in the 90's Mercury sold over 400,000 vehicles/year with nothing more than rebadged Fords like the Sable and Mountaineer. Only the Cougar was unique to Mercury. Who knows, with Ford's newfound popularity, Ford could have sold close to that number of Mercurys with a little effort and more product. Lincoln has been moribund even longer than Lincoln.

 

Don't get me wrong.....I would hate to see Lincoln go also. It's always sad to see a nameplate disappear. With Ford making money again hand over fist, now is not the time to end so many nameplates like Ranger, GM, Milan, Town Car, and so on with no replacements. The only all new product coming and here is the Fiesta and TC made in Turkey. That is it. Oh, and the Flex that replaced the Taurus X. A net loss of many nameplates. Choice is good. Hopefully Ford will fill some niches like new Bronco, new smaller pickup, new small station wagon that gets at least 35mpg highway, new luxury RWD sedan and coupe plus a new Thunderbird to make up for all these nameplates tossed on trash heap. I imagine Ford is still doing the Grand C Max, but not much said there in many months now.

[saintlaz1]

The only relevant fact is that a higher percentage of Mercury's go to fleets than Fords or Lincolns. Sorry if that disturbs your little world but it's the TRUTH. Suck it up and deal with it.

 

As for where did they go, I did show you. The fleet registration link very clearly indicated where they went. You're either too stupid or too stubborn to comprehend it. Either way, it's not my problem.

 

I dont think anyone called you names in this thread; lets have some respect.

[jpd80]

My take on the figures was that of the 21,000 Mercury fleet sales,

around 18,000 (80%)went to daily rentals

Edited July 24, 2010 by jpd80

[TomServo92]

I dont think anyone called you names in this thread; lets have some respect.

 

I didn't call you a name. I was theorizing why you can't seem to comprehend the facts. No disrespect was intended.

[syrtran]

I didn't call you a name. I was theorizing why you can't seem to comprehend the facts. No disrespect was intended.

In the future, you might want to avoid phrases like

You're either too stupid or too stubborn to comprehend it.

They never go over well.

 

@thread

My take on all this is still: I don't know what numbers Ford collected for the decision. I HOPE it was a sound financial one, BUT:

 

I still think they could've waited until Lincoln

• Has a proper small vehicle. Neither a Focus-based or Kuga/Escape-based vehicle can be ready before the end of 2011 without being a simple rebadge
  
• has a much more competitive MKZ (mid 2011, maybe)
  
• offers a new Navigator/Aviator/MK? off the new Explorer
  
• offers a better-looking MKS (2012-2013)
  

 

Right now, and by the end of 2010, Lincoln really only has good (retail) sales of the MKZ and MKX, both of which, currently, are just 'step-up' vehicles from the equivalent Ford (i.e. Mercury's traditional role). The MKS has an amazing amount of luxury, but, due to (IMO) its bland styling and ride, it's just not a competitive vehicle in its class.

 

I don't think Lincoln is ready to stand alone, and I really have to wonder how long it'll be 'till someone makes Mullaly a better offer.

[RichardJensen]

I really have to wonder how long it'll be 'till someone makes Mullaly a better offer.

He's 63. He's not going anywhere.

[TomServo92]

In the future, you might want to avoid phrases like

 

They never go over well.

 

Thanks for the advice but I knew exactly what I was doing when I posted that. :shades:

[FordBuyer]

In the future, you might want to avoid phrases like

 

They never go over well.

 

@thread

My take on all this is still: I don't know what numbers Ford collected for the decision. I HOPE it was a sound financial one, BUT:

 

I still think they could've waited until Lincoln

• Has a proper small vehicle. Neither a Focus-based or Kuga/Escape-based vehicle can be ready before the end of 2011 without being a simple rebadge
  
• has a much more competitive MKZ (mid 2011, maybe)
  
• offers a new Navigator/Aviator/MK? off the new Explorer
  
• offers a better-looking MKS (2012-2013)
  

 

Right now, and by the end of 2010, Lincoln really only has good (retail) sales of the MKZ and MKX, both of which, currently, are just 'step-up' vehicles from the equivalent Ford (i.e. Mercury's traditional role). The MKS has an amazing amount of luxury, but, due to (IMO) its bland styling and ride, it's just not a competitive vehicle in its class.

 

I don't think Lincoln is ready to stand alone, and I really have to wonder how long it'll be 'till someone makes Mullaly a better offer.

 

Good points. Lincoln is being forced to stand alone much too soon. I shiver everytime I go by a LM dealer in Metro Detroit now. They are doomed. I sure hope Mulally makes no more bonehead decisions like closing Mercury prematurely and letting Lincoln dealers swing in the wind for years. If the new MKC is a rebadge, that is a joke, and if it's not, it will be end of 2011 or 2012 before that vehicle will hit dealerships and get up to speed. Selling 3,000 MKZ hybrids/year is not going to change anything. The new MKX will help, but not significantly. Losing 10,000 Mercury sales/year will hurt big time with Lincoln on the ropes. That was a very cruel blow to them. Mulally may be smiling all the time, but he does have a cruel streak in him. I'm sure some of the Ford family are having a hard time sleeping lately knowing what awaits LM dealers.

[TomServo92]

They are doomed. I sure hope Mulally makes no more bonehead decisions like closing Mercury prematurely and letting Lincoln dealers swing in the wind for years.

 

:hysterical: :hysterical:

 

Like you know better than Mulally, who is privy to all the facts and numbers behind the business case that led to the decision. This is getting downright comical!

Edited July 24, 2010 by TomServo92

[FordBuyer]

:hysterical: :hysterical:

 

Like you know better than Mulally, who is privy to all the facts and numbers behind the business case that led to the decision. This is getting downright comical!

 

I'll tell you what......go visit a LM dealer and all Lincoln dealers in Metro Detroit are LM dealers and tell the dealer owner that closing Mercury was a great decision and won't hurt his multi million dollar investment. Ask him how he think he will do over next couple years selling the Lincoln models he has. You may get some interesting feedback from him or her. These LM dealers are getting screwed big time just as the Chrysler dealers did. It's especially galling after Ford just made $2.6 billion last three months. Already the LM dealers by me are starting to look like morgues as the Mercurys go out the door.

 

Again, if Mercury wasn't much an investment for Ford in time or money, and they sold at 10,000/month rate even after Sable went bye-bye, then why pull the rug out from under your dealers that have to sell your stuff. And if it's to deliberately get rid of them, then that is downright cruel and I thought Ford was above what Chrysler especially did to its dealers. At least they were under duress from forced bankruptcy. I'm sure LM dealers will be tight lipped until this mess shakes out, but once it does I'm sure we will hear an earful from closed LM dealers with nothing to sell. Selling 8,000 Lincolns/month in a good month is not going to keep many dealers open.

[akirby]

I'll tell you what......go visit a LM dealer and all Lincoln dealers in Metro Detroit are LM dealers and tell the dealer owner that closing Mercury was a great decision and won't hurt his multi million dollar investment. Ask him how he think he will do over next couple years selling the Lincoln models he has. You may get some interesting feedback from him or her. These LM dealers are getting screwed big time just as the Chrysler dealers did. It's especially galling after Ford just made $2.6 billion last three months. Already the LM dealers by me are starting to look like morgues as the Mercurys go out the door.

 

Again, if Mercury wasn't much an investment for Ford in time or money, and they sold at 10,000/month rate even after Sable went bye-bye, then why pull the rug out from under your dealers that have to sell your stuff. And if it's to deliberately get rid of them, then that is downright cruel and I thought Ford was above what Chrysler especially did to its dealers. At least they were under duress from forced bankruptcy. I'm sure LM dealers will be tight lipped until this mess shakes out, but once it does I'm sure we will hear an earful from closed LM dealers with nothing to sell. Selling 8,000 Lincolns/month in a good month is not going to keep many dealers open.

 

Ford has more dealers than they can reasonably support at current volumes. Why is that hard to understand? Some need to go - many already have (voluntarily).

 

One of the Lincoln Mercury dealers that is closing said he was very happy with the deal Ford gave him. Where are all the dealers complaining about Ford's offer?

 

Once again you're uninformed and making poor assumptions.

[TomServo92]

Ford has more dealers than they can reasonably support at current volumes. Why is that hard to understand? Some need to go - many already have (voluntarily).

 

One of the Lincoln Mercury dealers that is closing said he was very happy with the deal Ford gave him. Where are all the dealers complaining about Ford's offer?

 

Once again you're uninformed and making poor assumptions.

 

Give it up. They won't ever get it.

 

BTW, the dealers are being compensated for the loss of Mercury sales. The compensation is roughly equal to three years of sales based on prior years volume. Yep, Mulally is just letting them swing in the wind!

Edited July 24, 2010 by TomServo92

[FordBuyer]

Give it up. They won't ever get it.

 

Uh, guys.....remember the survey at top of thread? We were asked if Ford pulled the plug prematurely. Many said YES. I was one of them among many. We have a right to an opinion. You have no idea if you are correct until everything shakes out. Mulally is not GOD. He will make some errors if he runs Ford long enough. This may be one of them. Time will tell. Right now, it's not pleasant seeing your neighborhood LM dealer hit the skids while Ford makes money hand over fist. The LM dealer by my house is a very nice one that sits right next to biggest Cadillac dealer in nation. There was a Saturn dealer behind it that now sits vacant with weeds starting to sprout. Looks like the LM dealer is in for a couple bad years. He will probably survive by selling Lincolns on A plan, service, and has a great used car department. I hope he survives anyway. I'm tired of seeing one dealership after another close up.

[TomServo92]

Uh, guys.....remember the survey at top of thread? We were asked if Ford pulled the plug prematurely. Many said YES.

 

Did everyone in the forum vote in the poll? What percentage of the forum population do the YES votes represent? The reality is it's NOT a scientific poll. It's meaningless. Once again, you just don't get it.

 

As for Mulally, no, he's not God. But he's a damn good CEO who, along with the management team, have a track record of making sound decisions. I'll take that any day over your meaningless poll.

[FordBuyer]

Ford has more dealers than they can reasonably support at current volumes. Why is that hard to understand? Some need to go - many already have (voluntarily).

 

One of the Lincoln Mercury dealers that is closing said he was very happy with the deal Ford gave him. Where are all the dealers complaining about Ford's offer?

 

Once again you're uninformed and making poor assumptions.

 

Uninformed about what. That MKS sales are like 1100/month....MKT sales are 700/month...Lincoln's two flagships. That Mercury has kept these SEPARATE dealers open. LM dealers are not going to say anything while in state of fear. You will start hearing more next year after Mercury is long gone and the shake out appears over. We don't know how much a LM dealer will see....50 cents on dollar....30 cents on dollar. Who knows. Metro Detroit LM dealers are the big losers. They are separate dealers and needed Mercury to stay prosperous. Metro Detroiters buy Mercurys in big numbers. No one in Metro Detroit is going to buy a Lincoln from a Ford dealer unless it's set up completely separate. Mulally is from Seattle area and doesn't live here. He flies back and forth. Ditto for Fields who flies back and forth from FL. The Ford family lost out on this decision. Elena Ford once ran the LM division and marketed it to women. Edsel is turning over in his grave. Henry isn't as he would still be building the Model T if you let him. I know one thing...this city and most others don't need anymore closed dealerships, especally from one doing well. There are enough closed ruins dotting the landscape throughout America and especially MI.

[Marginal Economist]

Uninformed about what. That MKS sales are like 1100/month....MKT sales are 700/month...Lincoln's two flagships. That Mercury has kept these SEPARATE dealers open. LM dealers are not going to say anything while in state of fear. You will start hearing more next year after Mercury is long gone and the shake out appears over. We don't know how much a LM dealer will see....50 cents on dollar....30 cents on dollar. Who knows. Metro Detroit LM dealers are the big losers. They are separate dealers and needed Mercury to stay prosperous. Metro Detroiters buy Mercurys in big numbers. No one in Metro Detroit is going to buy a Lincoln from a Ford dealer unless it's set up completely separate. Mulally is from Seattle area and doesn't live here. He flies back and forth. Ditto for Fields who flies back and forth from FL. The Ford family lost out on this decision. Elena Ford once ran the LM division and marketed it to women. Edsel is turning over in his grave. Henry isn't as he would still be building the Model T if you let him. I know one thing...this city and most others don't need anymore closed dealerships, especally from one doing well. There are enough closed ruins dotting the landscape throughout America and especially MI.

 

4 of the 5 LM owners (owners, not some sales guy or service advisor) I've spoken to are cool with the decision. The one who is not sells less than 10 new per month LM combined as it is, with 50-60 used cars a month.

 

The Fusion and Escape will pick up the rest of the Mariner and Milan production, so Ford is not losing those sales. A stand alone LM selling less than 20 cars a month can not afford the advertising, dealership requirements, and other factors that go into making a dealership thrive (or even remain viable). I judge Alan on his track record and he has done nothing to make me think this is not the right move.

 

The Ford family wants the return of the dividend. Closing Mercury could speed up it's return.

[FordBuyer]

4 of the 5 LM owners (owners, not some sales guy or service advisor) I've spoken to are cool with the decision. The one who is not sells less than 10 new per month LM combined as it is, with 50-60 used cars a month.

 

The Fusion and Escape will pick up the rest of the Mariner and Milan production, so Ford is not losing those sales. A stand alone LM selling less than 20 cars a month can not afford the advertising, dealership requirements, and other factors that go into making a dealership thrive (or even remain viable). I judge Alan on his track record and he has done nothing to make me think this is not the right move.

 

The Ford family wants the return of the dividend. Closing Mercury could speed up it's return.

 

First, Ford has said it will cost them $500 million to close Mercury down. How does that cost speed profits up? And second, we will see about sales when Mercury is gone. The Fiesta may pick up some slack, but we don't know yet how many Fiesta sales would have been Focus sales. The Ranger leaves soon also and its 6,0000 sales/month. Then goes the Town Car and its 1,500 sales/month. The new Explorer is a wash with the old one. The new Focus will be a wash with the present one. So next year, Ford's sales will be down in comparison to this year assuming the economy limps along. So in sum goes at least 100, 000 Mercury sales, 15,000 TC sales, and 70,000 Ranger sales. Now if the economy really charges ahead next year, Ford can probably match this year's sales or do a little better. Sorry, but sales analysts and investors like to see increased sales and market share. You don't do that by getting rid of 200,000 sales/year. Simple math.

[TomServo92]

Sorry, but sales analysts and investors like to see increased sales and market share. You don't do that by getting rid of 200,000 sales/year. Simple math.

 

Then why do all the investors seem satisfied with Ford's decision? Why is there no outcry from analysts over this? In fact, from what I've read, many think it was long overdue.

[Marginal Economist]

First, Ford has said it will cost them $500 million to close Mercury down. How does that cost speed profits up? And second, we will see about sales when Mercury is gone. The Fiesta may pick up some slack, but we don't know yet how many Fiesta sales would have been Focus sales. The Ranger leaves soon also and its 6,0000 sales/month. Then goes the Town Car and its 1,500 sales/month. The new Explorer is a wash with the old one. The new Focus will be a wash with the present one. So next year, Ford's sales will be down in comparison to this year assuming the economy limps along. So in sum goes at least 100, 000 Mercury sales, 15,000 TC sales, and 70,000 Ranger sales. Now if the economy really charges ahead next year, Ford can probably match this year's sales or do a little better. Sorry, but sales analysts and investors like to see increased sales and market share. You don't do that by getting rid of 200,000 sales/year. Simple math.

I'll keep my copy of the production plan and you can imagine yours. I'll buy all of your F stock from you now as well.

[Edstock]

The new Explorer is a wash with the old one. The new Focus will be a wash with the present one.

You know this, how? Have you seen either, or driven them. Please tell us.

[Ford Jellymoulds]

First, Ford has said it will cost them $500 million to close Mercury down. How does that cost speed profits up? And second, we will see about sales when Mercury is gone. The Fiesta may pick up some slack, but we don't know yet how many Fiesta sales would have been Focus sales. The Ranger leaves soon also and its 6,0000 sales/month. Then goes the Town Car and its 1,500 sales/month. The new Explorer is a wash with the old one. The new Focus will be a wash with the present one. So next year, Ford's sales will be down in comparison to this year assuming the economy limps along. So in sum goes at least 100, 000 Mercury sales, 15,000 TC sales, and 70,000 Ranger sales. Now if the economy really charges ahead next year, Ford can probably match this year's sales or do a little better. Sorry, but sales analysts and investors like to see increased sales and market share. You don't do that by getting rid of 200,000 sales/year. Simple math.

 

What about Volvo don't they count as well towards Fords numbers 57,000 sales this year maybe, until they go at the end of year?

 

 

 

[akirby]

First, Ford has said it will cost them $500 million to close Mercury down. How does that cost speed profits up? And second, we will see about sales when Mercury is gone. The Fiesta may pick up some slack, but we don't know yet how many Fiesta sales would have been Focus sales. The Ranger leaves soon also and its 6,0000 sales/month. Then goes the Town Car and its 1,500 sales/month. The new Explorer is a wash with the old one. The new Focus will be a wash with the present one. So next year, Ford's sales will be down in comparison to this year assuming the economy limps along. So in sum goes at least 100, 000 Mercury sales, 15,000 TC sales, and 70,000 Ranger sales. Now if the economy really charges ahead next year, Ford can probably match this year's sales or do a little better. Sorry, but sales analysts and investors like to see increased sales and market share. You don't do that by getting rid of 200,000 sales/year. Simple math.

 

You're either a troll or the most ignorant person I've come across in a long time. Either way, I'm done. Check back in a year and you'll see how wrong you are.

[FordBuyer]

You're either a troll or the most ignorant person I've come across in a long time. Either way, I'm done. Check back in a year and you'll see how wrong you are.

 

Why the name calling? You can't have an intelligent discussion or debate of the aforementioned survey question without resorting to pejorative names? I hope I'm wrong and Ford can override the 200,000 lost sales without counting Volvo sales. Ford spends the 90's buying up everything in sight and then does a 180 and sells everything in sight including in house Mercury. If you take this strategy far enough, why stop with Mercury? Why not get rid of Lincoln? I would be against getting rid of Lincoln, but then I'm against getting rid of Mercury. Henry would get rid of Lincoln and buy back all the stock investors shares and take the company private again. Mulally has stated that he is student of Henry Ford's legacy.

 

As for the new Explorer being a wash, I say that because the Explorer will be an expensive SUV and 7,000/month seems to be about best you can hope for with $35,000+vehicle in this economy. I imagine it will be priced higher than both the Flex which is expensive and the Edge. Ford just cut its forecast for auto sales this year and is not increasing production numbers. You know Ford will be very conservative with its inventory numbers as it should be. If Ford can keep the price of the new Focus down, then maybe it can sell better than present one, but I see the Focus price range going up. And if Focus sales go through the roof, how many sales does it take away from Fusion that doesn't have a hatch? And Escape will have trouble matching 2010 numbers in 2011 as it becomes more dated vs. the competition and GM's ability to produce more Equinox. Sorry to be realistic and not believe that Mulally walks on water.