Farley on Lincoln's Future

[FordBuyer]

I see. It's your contention that Ford should dump a couple billion into Lincoln every four or five years and get a couple hundred million in 'profit' out of it during that period?

 

There's a reason why Ford sold Jaguar. It's business model doesn't work. And here you are suggesting that Ford adopt that same non-functional business model for Lincoln?

 

Putting tons of money into PAG while ignoring Lincoln is what didn't work. Now that they don't have that expense, Ford has no more excuses about offering warmed over Fords with more chrome as Ford's interpertation of luxury. Ford also ignored the car market when it was selling 900,000 F-Series trucks and 400,000 Explorers/year. Ford now has a formidable car lineup after learning its lesson and needs to do same with Lincoln. If all Ford wants to do is get by on the cheap with Lincoln as it did with Mercury, then just put Lincoln to sleep also. I will take Ford on its word however and hope they mean what they say and go the extra yard to make Lincoln name mean something again. With only two divisions left, Ford should be able to make Lincoln special since they have no mare distractions. And a new RWD platform is the way to go. Merging Falcon/Mustang RWD platform sounds good to me. Keeps that global platform theme alive and well. Lincoln and next generation Mustang should be first at getting it and hopefully spread it to new Thunderbird also.

[sullynd]

I hope E8 and D2C do not merge or we'll get a porker Mustang like the Camaro. Commonizing components between the two where possible is what makes the most sense.

[FordBuyer]

I hope E8 and D2C do not merge or we'll get a porker Mustang like the Camaro. Commonizing components between the two where possible is what makes the most sense.

 

Australian GTO, G8, and now Camaro. Maybe Australian Mustang, MKR is future for Ford? I guess you do what you have to do to get the most uses out of common platform to reduce costs and make a profit. I believe Ford stated that it wants to put all its vehicles on a diet and average 250 pound weight loss across the board. Composite hoods and deck lids, and lighterweight steel is good place to start. And Ford does have experience working with aluminum bodies which could be doable on high end Lincolns only. I remember the original AC Cobras were hand formed aluminum bodies. I still remember sitting in sapphire blue Cobra with 289 hypo at the old Rotunda in Dearborn, MI before it burned down.

[TomServo92]

Putting tons of money into PAG while ignoring Lincoln is what didn't work. Now that they don't have that expense, Ford has no more excuses about offering warmed over Fords with more chrome as Ford's interpertation of luxury. Ford also ignored the car market when it was selling 900,000 F-Series trucks and 400,000 Explorers/year. Ford now has a formidable car lineup after learning its lesson and needs to do same with Lincoln. If all Ford wants to do is get by on the cheap with Lincoln as it did with Mercury, then just put Lincoln to sleep also. I will take Ford on its word however and hope they mean what they say and go the extra yard to make Lincoln name mean something again. With only two divisions left, Ford should be able to make Lincoln special since they have no mare distractions. And a new RWD platform is the way to go. Merging Falcon/Mustang RWD platform sounds good to me. Keeps that global platform theme alive and well. Lincoln and next generation Mustang should be first at getting it and hopefully spread it to new Thunderbird also.

 

That's quite a tap dancing job. I'll give you props for skillfully avoiding answering the question.

[mercurymichael]

That's quite a tap dancing job. I'll give you props for skillfully avoiding answering the question.

 

So why do you think Lincoln went from #1 US luxury to #6? There certainly was no new product in that time period. The last Continental failed, the Mark VIII was left on the vine to die just like its stablemates Thunderbird/Cougar. Their #1 vehicle Town Car was updated twice, but not in anyway beyond making it a good fleet car. They did get the LS that was getting them some attention, but again left out to die. They got a rebadged Explorer that failed, a rebadged F-150 that failed and a rebadged Expedition that launched well, but has been largely ignored since. Nassar had no use for L/M and as I recall even said so. His only interest was PAG. I don't think he even saw Ford as more than a truck brand.

 

As I have said before, Ford completely ignored their car business in this same time period that L/M began to fail. While I have no hard evidence, it is a pretty easy assumption that all the money that was wasted on PAG could have easily kept Ford in the car game, one they owned in that lates 80's early 90's.

 

As far as the dealership experience, that should always be the focus for F/L and is something that L/M has already achieved according to many surveys including JDPower.

 

As far as focusing on 'tophats' as a point of differentiality, they are merely turning Lincoln into Mercury, something that many on this site have beat into the ground as being pointless. While Ford as not shared it's product plan for Lincoln's future and they may have the most incredible cars in the world on their way, based on the 'tophat' statement and Ford's recent track record with L/M, it does seem a little unlikely that Lincoln will become anything special. This is not my wish for such a great marque, but they are going to have to go farther for Lincoln with unique engines, drivetrains, driving experience, bodywork, luxury etc. or they will have to kill Mercury all over again.

[TomServo92]

So why do you think Lincoln went from #1 US luxury to #6? There certainly was no new product in that time period. The last Continental failed, the Mark VIII was left on the vine to die just like its stablemates Thunderbird/Cougar. Their #1 vehicle Town Car was updated twice, but not in anyway beyond making it a good fleet car. They did get the LS that was getting them some attention, but again left out to die. They got a rebadged Explorer that failed, a rebadged F-150 that failed and a rebadged Expedition that launched well, but has been largely ignored since. Nassar had no use for L/M and as I recall even said so. His only interest was PAG. I don't think he even saw Ford as more than a truck brand.

 

As I have said before, Ford completely ignored their car business in this same time period that L/M began to fail. While I have no hard evidence, it is a pretty easy assumption that all the money that was wasted on PAG could have easily kept Ford in the car game, one they owned in that lates 80's early 90's.

 

As far as the dealership experience, that should always be the focus for F/L and is something that L/M has already achieved according to many surveys including JDPower.

 

As far as focusing on 'tophats' as a point of differentiality, they are merely turning Lincoln into Mercury, something that many on this site have beat into the ground as being pointless. While Ford as not shared it's product plan for Lincoln's future and they may have the most incredible cars in the world on their way, based on the 'tophat' statement and Ford's recent track record with L/M, it does seem a little unlikely that Lincoln will become anything special. This is not my wish for such a great marque, but they are going to have to go farther for Lincoln with unique engines, drivetrains, driving experience, bodywork, luxury etc. or they will have to kill Mercury all over again.

 

That's all well and good but it doesn't address the question posed to Fordbuyer regarding his suggested business model for Lincoln.

[TomServo92]

Just for the record, I do agree that Lincoln was starved to feed PAG. Now, answer the question posed by RJ.

Edited September 5, 2010 by TomServo92

[FordBuyer]

That's quite a tap dancing job. I'll give you props for skillfully avoiding answering the question.

 

Uh, how are Jag sales doing now? And is the Jag a signature luxury sedan? And Lincoln didn't get to where it is today because Ford was spending big money on it. Putting split wing grills on essentially FWD Fords is not spending big money. Hopefully Ford will spend big money on Lincoln and get back to 190,000 sales/year. I'm still not sure if Ford wants to play with the big boys like MB and Jag, or just wants to appeal to a Ford guy who wants a little more luxury. I would even be happy with ONE Lincoln halo vehicle, and then offer MKXs with the rest of your lineup. I don't even know if the Lexus model is working that well anymore. Lexus always left me cold and they are struggling for the most part against the likes of MB and BMW. MB is really doing well and should break 200,000 barrier easily this year. And the latest Jags that Ford had a hand in and still does are outstanding. So the expertise and talent is there.

[akirby]

they are going to have to go farther for Lincoln with unique engines, drivetrains, driving experience, bodywork, luxury etc. or they will have to kill Mercury all over again.

 

Ummm......that's EXACTLY what they said they were going to do with they announced they were killing Mercury. How quickly some people forget.......

[TomServo92]

Uh, how are Jag sales doing now? And is the Jag a signature luxury sedan? And Lincoln didn't get to where it is today because Ford was spending big money on it. Putting split wing grills on essentially FWD Fords is not spending big money. Hopefully Ford will spend big money on Lincoln and get back to 190,000 sales/year. I'm still not sure if Ford wants to play with the big boys like MB and Jag, or just wants to appeal to a Ford guy who wants a little more luxury. I would even be happy with ONE Lincoln halo vehicle, and then offer MKXs with the rest of your lineup. I don't even know if the Lexus model is working that well anymore. Lexus always left me cold and they are struggling for the most part against the likes of MB and BMW. MB is really doing well and should break 200,000 barrier easily this year. And the latest Jags that Ford had a hand in and still does are outstanding. So the expertise and talent is there.

 

Still no answer I see.

 

Or is your lack of a direct answer actually an answer? Hmmmm....

 

OK, here's another question you can avoid: Has the amount money invested in Jag been recouped yet (or would have been if Ford had retained them)?

[TomServo92]

Uh, how are Jag sales doing now?

 

Oh yeah...almost forgot...Jag didn't even sell 2,000 units for the entire brand last month. I guess they fail the magical Fordbuyer 2,000 unit sales threshold that spells death!

Edited September 5, 2010 by TomServo92

[FordBuyer]

So why do you think Lincoln went from #1 US luxury to #6? There certainly was no new product in that time period. The last Continental failed, the Mark VIII was left on the vine to die just like its stablemates Thunderbird/Cougar. Their #1 vehicle Town Car was updated twice, but not in anyway beyond making it a good fleet car. They did get the LS that was getting them some attention, but again left out to die. They got a rebadged Explorer that failed, a rebadged F-150 that failed and a rebadged Expedition that launched well, but has been largely ignored since. Nassar had no use for L/M and as I recall even said so. His only interest was PAG. I don't think he even saw Ford as more than a truck brand.

 

As I have said before, Ford completely ignored their car business in this same time period that L/M began to fail. While I have no hard evidence, it is a pretty easy assumption that all the money that was wasted on PAG could have easily kept Ford in the car game, one they owned in that lates 80's early 90's.

 

As far as the dealership experience, that should always be the focus for F/L and is something that L/M has already achieved according to many surveys including JDPower.

 

As far as focusing on 'tophats' as a point of differentiality, they are merely turning Lincoln into Mercury, something that many on this site have beat into the ground as being pointless. While Ford as not shared it's product plan for Lincoln's future and they may have the most incredible cars in the world on their way, based on the 'tophat' statement and Ford's recent track record with L/M, it does seem a little unlikely that Lincoln will become anything special. This is not my wish for such a great marque, but they are going to have to go farther for Lincoln with unique engines, drivetrains, driving experience, bodywork, luxury etc. or they will have to kill Mercury all over again.

 

Good post...you said it better than I could. Until Ford says something more definitive than it has to date, you have to remain concerned for Lincoln's future. I know Ford comes first and Lincoln second. But yeah, if Ford can't put some real effort into it this time and get it right, then Lincoln has no more of a future than Mercury. And I know it's doubly hard in this economy where you are also trying to get back to investment grade. An incredibly difficult job under the circumstances and even more of a challenge than turning around Ford brand IMO.

[FordBuyer]

Oh yeah...almost forgot...Jag didn't even sell 2,000 units for the entire brand last month. I guess they fail the magical Fordbuyer 2,000 unit sales threshold that spells death!

 

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that Jag sales are up, and I'm not just talking about U.S., but in Europe. Wasn't there just a story of Ford plants having hard time making enough engines for Jag and LR? I'm glad Ford got rid of PAG, but that doesn't mean LR and Jag are not good luxury brands. Tata saw value in them.

[TomServo92]

Tata saw value in them.

 

Ford did too at one time. We now know how much of money pit they became. I wish Tata ALL the luck in the world with JLR.

[rmc523]

Uh, how are Jag sales doing now? And is the Jag a signature luxury sedan? And the latest Jags that Ford had a hand in and still does are outstanding.

 

Well, I've seen one new XJ since it's release, and rarely seen an XK anymore.....also see fewer and fewer XF's on the road (with half their LED taillights out) as time goes by......

 

....and that's down here in South Florida where luxury cars are everywhere!

Edited September 5, 2010 by rmc523

[FordBuyer]

Well, I've seen one new XJ since it's release, and rarely seen an XK anymore.....also see fewer and fewer XF's on the road (with half their LED taillights out) as time goes by......

 

....and that's down here in South Florida where luxury cars are everywhere!

 

"Jaguar pulled off an impressive rebound in August thanks mostly to the new XJ sedan. After only three months in showrooms, it’s already outselling the XF sedan with 700 sold in August to the XF’s 570. The eldest of the group and the most compromised in terms of utility, the XK coupe/roadster, was a distant third with 143 sales. Overall, Jaguar moved 1414 cars in August, good for a 62-percent gain over August 2009."

 

At least they are headed in right direction, and they do use Ford drivetrains so Ford makes some revenue off their sales. Ditto with LR. Nice luxury vehicles, but Ford couldn't afford to put more money into them and turnaround Lincoln at the same time.

[JagXFRGuy]

You guys are like a bunch of old woman....STICK TO THE TOPIC..first, Richard, you're dead wrong as usual. Back in 2000/2001 our old pal Wolfgang Retizel (sp) had a plan that was presented to the FMC board...for $1 billion he could remake Lincoln. They said no. It wouldn't take a couple of billion but it would take some serious cash.

 

Ford finds themselves in the same cyclical nonsense with Lincoln that they were in until recently with the blue oval. Make cars people want. Not a bunch of marketing nonsense - make cars people want and take some risk.

 

But before I talk about that....as for Jaguar, every current car is a Ford and let me tell you, I'll smoke most anything in my '10 XFR. It's a beast that is a dream to drive. Tata will do ok with JLR but it takes seriously deep pockets - the 2000 RR cost BMW $1.8 billion to develop - and the new RR will cost at least $500 million given it's going to share the XJ's alum. tech. But this nonsense that I as a Jag owner would drive or crossshop a Lincoln for a Jaguar - insane....I have no reason to step into a Lincoln showroom. I mean, if I bought a standard XF or XJ - still no reason to buy a Lincoln. Lincoln could be a higher profitable volume brand but lets face it - Jag buyers don't really crossshop Lincoln's or hell even BMW's - not our style, we're more MB like. What the hell do Lincoln buyers crossshop? Do you know how many cars that are BMW's, MB's and Audi's sell for $35-55K? A huge percentage. The price point isn't a reason why people buy BMW's or MB's..it's the total package, customer experience and here's the most important - THE ACTUAL PRODUCT. No offense, but an MKS, MKZ??? Seriously - why? It's junk. Buy a fully loaded SHO, now that's a package I'd buy but an MKS? Good lord, the car screams boring. I drove a new MKX and it's nice but still no A5 or BMW X5/X6. Lexus - the brand will never get back to the level it was and the reason is that you have too many other products that are simply better.

 

Now Lincoln. Lincoln must have money pumped into it long-term and Ford understands this....but it's taken Jaguar 10+ years to come to a place that it's just now going to become a niche brand that can consistently make money on a small volume with...here's a shocker - products people want to buy. Guess who's buying XJ's? MB owners of S classes - You have to have product that people want. Hell, Caddy's ATS will be a 3 Series fighter. Now, I have no idea if it will be any good but they learned with the SLS/STS - that's no Sclass.

 

The autoextremist says it best. Stop trying to make Lincoln an Acura or Lexus....And make Lincoln into a brand people actually want.

Edited September 5, 2010 by JagXFRGuy

[TomServo92]

"Jaguar pulled off an impressive rebound in August thanks mostly to the new XJ sedan. After only three months in showrooms, it’s already outselling the XF sedan with 700 sold in August to the XF’s 570. The eldest of the group and the most compromised in terms of utility, the XK coupe/roadster, was a distant third with 143 sales. Overall, Jaguar moved 1414 cars in August, good for a 62-percent gain over August 2009."

 

At least they are headed in right direction, and they do use Ford drivetrains so Ford makes some revenue off their sales. Ditto with LR. Nice luxury vehicles, but Ford couldn't afford to put more money into them and turnaround Lincoln at the same time.

 

Not enough sales. I smell death. :rolleyes:

[suv_guy_19]

Lexus IS a brand that people want. It doesn't really matter whether or not you want it.

[TomServo92]

Lexus IS a brand that people want. It doesn't really matter whether or not you want it.

 

In August, Lexus outsold everyone but BMW (with a 75 unit difference). I'm no Toyota fan but it sounds like they know what they're doing with Lexus.

Edited September 5, 2010 by TomServo92

[FordBuyer]

Not enough sales. I smell death. :rolleyes:

 

Lincoln is not Jaguar, and right now couldn't get away with selling a $75,000 vehicle with what they offer now. Lincoln needs to get back to Cadillac sales numbers, and it's not going to get there selling 600 MKTs/month. And the MKT is not a "halo" vehicle. Lincoln could use a halo vehicle at sometime during this decade, and 700 sales/month like the Jag XJ would probably be fine assuming no incentive. And again, the MKT is no Jaguar XF or XJ. I truly wish the MKT was better looking, but it's not and not sure how the design got final build OK. I wonder who finally signed off on it...Fields? He usually sends vehicles back to designers if he doesn't like it.

[FordBuyer]

In August, Lexus outsold everyone but BMW (with a 75 unit difference). I'm no Toyota fan but it sounds like they know what they're doing with Lexus.

 

Is Toyota offering big incentives on Lexus like they do with Toyota brand? Toyota is now offering $500 bonus on top of all the other lucrative incentives and great lease deals. It's all about high ATP's, right?

[RichardJensen]

I'll smoke most anything in my '10 XFR. It's a beast that is a dream to drive. Tata will do ok with JLR but it takes seriously deep pockets

 

Translation: These products will not sustain their own ongoing development.

 

Translation: These products do not cover their costs.

 

Translation: These products lose money.

[TomServo92]

Is Toyota offering big incentives on Lexus like they do with Toyota brand? Toyota is now offering $500 bonus on top of all the other lucrative incentives and great lease deals. It's all about high ATP's, right?

 

AFAIK they're offering some low interest rates and lease deals (no rebates) on specific models (and those are outgoing 2010s). Sounds to me like the ATPs are just fine.

Edited September 5, 2010 by TomServo92

[PREMiERdrum]

Well, FordBuyer thinks it's a bad idea... so they're obviously heading in the right direction.