Edstock Posted September 30, 2010 Share Posted September 30, 2010 Selective memories abound on here. Well, if you try harder, your memory will be less selective . . . but you've got to want to try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted September 30, 2010 Share Posted September 30, 2010 What would you like? Internal Ford documents from the 3v 5.4 launch QC testing. Damn right! If you're going to assert that Ford knew, you need to post comments from a reliable source (Austin, TOW, etc.) or those documents. Otherwise, there's no proof. You can say, "I can't see how Ford could've missed it" or "If they missed it their tests are screwed up" or any other statement that relies on conditionals. To assert boldly that something happened requires proof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted September 30, 2010 Share Posted September 30, 2010 Well, if you try harder, your memory will be less selective . . . but you've got to want to try. How about remembering this: Ford vehicles I like Fiesta....best in class 2012 Focus...best in class Fusion....best in class Taurus....competitive Escape....mediocre now Edge...best in class Flex...bold try by Ford Mustang....best in class F-150....best in class MKX...best in class Super Duty....best in class Ford vehicles I don't like: MKS...below average MKT....can't get by the looks MKZ...overpriced New Explorer...not impressed with looks or capabilities So next time you guys say I'm overcritical about Ford, remember I like the majority of the vehicles in their lineup. And I still feel they have holes in their lineup. Big holes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F250 Posted September 30, 2010 Share Posted September 30, 2010 Damn right! If you're going to assert that Ford knew, you need to post comments from a reliable source (Austin, TOW, etc.) or those documents. Otherwise, there's no proof. You can say, "I can't see how Ford could've missed it" or "If they missed it their tests are screwed up" or any other statement that relies on conditionals. To assert boldly that something happened requires proof. I'll quote myself for you And those are just fact supported opinions of mine The proof is hundreds of thousands of customer owned 5.4 engines. You keep saying their testing is not screwed up and they never broke spark plugs on tear-down...I'll politely disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted September 30, 2010 Share Posted September 30, 2010 (edited) The proof is hundreds of thousands Dude. You can't even 'prove' that this issue affected 'hundreds of thousands' of engines. You have no proof for anything other than what is transparently obvious: That the spark plugs on the 3v 5.4L were a problem with that engine. You can't prove Ford knew, you can't prove that hundreds of thousands of engines were impacted, you can't prove anything apart from that which we all already know. Edited September 30, 2010 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted September 30, 2010 Share Posted September 30, 2010 The proof is hundreds of thousands of customer owned 5.4 engines. And are still buying new ones..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenp77 Posted September 30, 2010 Share Posted September 30, 2010 I'll quote myself for you The proof is hundreds of thousands of customer owned 5.4 engines. You keep saying their testing is not screwed up and they never broke spark plugs on tear-down...I'll politely disagree. U are spot on with these problems my early 04 5.4 had plugs done at a ford dealer at 48K they broke 7 of 8, I have had both cam phasers replaced and I now need timing chain tensioners replaced these are all know problems and u bet your ass ford knew of them with all there testing and just ran them through as when they show up warranty is gone. bottom line all fords million mile testing doesn't mean crap if they find a flaw close to model release it will go out, I would not buy any of these engines for atleast a year or more of real world driving, then I may try the 5.0 as it is the most proven engine of the bunch?? PS: Don't expect many posters here to agree with u until it costs them money ford is great!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted September 30, 2010 Share Posted September 30, 2010 u bet your ass ford knew of them with all there testing and just ran them through Are you aware that you just committed libel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted September 30, 2010 Share Posted September 30, 2010 Are you aware that you just committed libel? u bet ur ass he is! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted September 30, 2010 Share Posted September 30, 2010 u bet your ass ford knew of them with all there testing and just ran them through as when they show up warranty is gone. "ran them through as when they show up warranty is gone"??? It may be libelous, it certainly lacks logic and clarity of meaning. What ever it is that you do, have you considered wearing a helmet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted September 30, 2010 Share Posted September 30, 2010 U are spot on with these problems my early 04 5.4 had plugs done at a ford dealer at 48K they broke 7 of 8, I have had both cam phasers replaced and I now need timing chain tensioners replaced these are all know problems and u bet your ass ford knew of them with all there testing and just ran them through as when they show up warranty is gone. bottom line all fords million mile testing doesn't mean crap if they find a flaw close to model release it will go out, I would not buy any of these engines for atleast a year or more of real world driving, then I may try the 5.0 as it is the most proven engine of the bunch?? PS: Don't expect many posters here to agree with u until it costs them money ford is great!! I have worked here since 1986. So obviously we sold a shite load of the years in question...guess what....2 vehicles total had issues....2....sad to hear you had issues, but based on MY experience i think the issue as far as numbers effected is concerned , is perhaps over blown...that said it WAS a glaring engineering mistake.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F250 Posted October 1, 2010 Share Posted October 1, 2010 (edited) Dude. You can't even 'prove' that this issue affected 'hundreds of thousands' of engines. You have no proof for anything other than what is transparently obvious: That the spark plugs on the 3v 5.4L were a problem with that engine. You can't prove Ford knew, you can't prove that hundreds of thousands of engines were impacted, you can't prove anything apart from that which we all already know. F-150 production totals 2004 = 939,511 *some of these were the previous generation Heritage model 2v 2005 = 901,463 2006 = 796,039 2007 = 690,589 *the cylinder heads and spark plugs were re-designed and new production began 10/9/07 (early '08 MY) Total= 3,327,602 The 5.4L 3v engine was installed in 100% of Lariat (26% of production) 100% of FX4 (15%) 67% of XLT (35%) 35% of XL (16%) the other 8% is STX-5.4L N/A powertrain & model mix example source: 2006 Ford order guide Can we now agree that "hundreds of thousands" is actually understating the number. All that said the issue was known when I bought my '06 so it was not a deal breaker, on the contrary I love this truck and consider it a "keeper" Most of the bad rep hit when techs and owners were first starting to remove the plugs and broke a lot of them before the TSB and special service tools were available. Edited October 1, 2010 by F250 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan1 Posted October 1, 2010 Share Posted October 1, 2010 The bottom line is they have come up with a solution to fix the problem. There is a procedure to remove the plugs trouble free. If one sticks following this procedure, they have a special tool to remove it. It really isn't a big deal anymore. My truck is coming up on a spark plug change next month and I am not worried about it. Also, this removal issue only applied to the 3v engines so using total F-series sales is not accurate. SPARK PLUG REMOVAL INSTRUCTIONS: http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/jmcdo28/2009-01-02_155622_tsb08-07-06.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F250 Posted October 1, 2010 Share Posted October 1, 2010 The bottom line is they have come up with a solution to fix the problem. There is a procedure to remove the plugs trouble free. If one sticks following this procedure, they have a special tool to remove it. It really isn't a big deal anymore. My truck is coming up on a spark plug change next month and I am not worried about it. Also, this removal issue only applied to the 3v engines so using total F-series sales is not accurate. SPARK PLUG REMOVAL INSTRUCTIONS: http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/jmcdo28/2009-01-02_155622_tsb08-07-06.pdf That's why I included the model mix, not just total production. Actually the TSB covers many more vehicles than just the F-150: Some 2004-2008 F-150, 2006-2008 Mark LT, 2005-2008 F-Super Duty, Expedition, and Navigator, with 5.4L 3-V engine; 2005-2008 Mustang, 2006-2008 Explorer, Mountaineer, and 2007-2008 Explorer Sport Trac with 4.6L 3-V engine; 2005-2008 F-Super Duty, 2006-2008 and F-Stripped Chassis, with 6.8L 3-V engine may experience difficulty with spark plug removal. Affected engine build dates are as follows: 5.4L 3-V and 6.8L 3-V before 10/9/07, 4.6L 3-V before 11/30/07. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted October 1, 2010 Share Posted October 1, 2010 U are spot on with these problems my early 04 5.4 had plugs done at a ford dealer at 48K they broke 7 of 8... Why did you change the plugs at 48k? They don't need to be changed until 100k. Had you waited, they probably wouldn't have broken any, or at least would not have had trouble getting them out since the tool would have been around. F-150 production totals 2004 = 939,511 *some of these were the previous generation Heritage model 2v 2005 = 901,463 2006 = 796,039 2007 = 690,589 *the cylinder heads and spark plugs were re-designed and new production began 10/9/07 (early '08 MY) Total= 3,327,602 Those aren't F150 numbers, those are F Series total (including F-2,3,4,5 50) numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F250 Posted October 1, 2010 Share Posted October 1, 2010 (edited) Those aren't F150 numbers, those are F Series total (including F-2,3,4,5 50) numbers. True but if you check the TSB above the problem exists in everything from 4.6 Mustang to Superduty V10 6.8L edit: Edited October 1, 2010 by F250 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan1 Posted October 1, 2010 Share Posted October 1, 2010 You're beating a dead horse. The issue has been resolved since 2007. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenp77 Posted October 1, 2010 Share Posted October 1, 2010 (edited) Why did you change the plugs at 48k? They don't need to be changed until 100k. Had you waited, they probably wouldn't have broken any, or at least would not have had trouble getting them out since the tool would have been around. Those aren't F150 numbers, those are F Series total (including F-2,3,4,5 50) numbers. I had them replaced because I knew there was a problem and there are documented cases at 100K plugs are seized in the heads and heads have to come off. Bryan1 FTI for every plug that breaks and the tech uses the removal tool it is $100 per plug, my bill for the plug change was $ 798 and change. Edited October 1, 2010 by kenp77 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted October 1, 2010 Share Posted October 1, 2010 True but if you check the TSB above the problem exists in everything from 4.6 Mustang to Superduty V10 6.8L edit: And in '04, the SD and Mustang still had the 2V and not the 3V with the problem. And the SD had a LOT of diesel sales. So, if the problem was as bad as you state, then there would have been a class-action lawsuit agains Ford and it would have been all over the media. It wasn't. It isn't. Does it happen? Yes. Was it bad for those it happened to? Yes. Am I fretting about it in my '05 F150? Nope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomServo92 Posted October 1, 2010 Share Posted October 1, 2010 This Saturday is the '11 F150 Test Drive event in Houston! I can't wait. I'll bring my camera and take some pics (if they let me) :happy feet: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 1, 2010 Share Posted October 1, 2010 F-150 production totals 2004 = 939,511 *some of these were the previous generation Heritage model 2v 2005 = 901,463 2006 = 796,039 2007 = 690,589 *the cylinder heads and spark plugs were re-designed and new production began 10/9/07 (early '08 MY) Total= 3,327,602 The 5.4L 3v engine was installed in 100% of Lariat (26% of production) 100% of FX4 (15%) 67% of XLT (35%) 35% of XL (16%) the other 8% is STX-5.4L N/A powertrain & model mix example source: 2006 Ford order guide Can we now agree that "hundreds of thousands" is actually understating the number. All that said the issue was known when I bought my '06 so it was not a deal breaker, on the contrary I love this truck and consider it a "keeper" Most of the bad rep hit when techs and owners were first starting to remove the plugs and broke a lot of them before the TSB and special service tools were available. Thank you for those numbers. But they are irrelevant. You have not proved that 'hundreds of thousands' of these engines had the spark plug issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted October 1, 2010 Share Posted October 1, 2010 This Saturday is the '11 F150 Test Drive event in Houston! I can't wait. I'll bring my camera and take some pics (if they let me) :happy feet: Can't wait to hear your thoughts...and see the pics! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah Harbinger Posted October 1, 2010 Share Posted October 1, 2010 (edited) Are you aware that you just committed libel? Techinically, isn't BON committing libel by publishing that comment? Regardless, it would be hard for there to be any actionable outcome: Ford would have prove the statement was known to be false, and that actual harm was caused. Edited October 1, 2010 by Noah Harbinger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F250 Posted October 1, 2010 Share Posted October 1, 2010 You're beating a dead horse. The issue has been resolved since 2007. Actually this began as a comment about testing new designs (like engines) to prevent this kind of issue before production. The 3V 5.4L engine launch was just an example of a detail that slipped through. Today with special service tools (something else to buy) the issue is little more than an annoyance that makes spark plug changes more time consuming than they need to be...and time is money. But yes in order to have a discussion of long term durability we have to have an example of an engine that has been is service more than just a few months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F250 Posted October 1, 2010 Share Posted October 1, 2010 Thank you for those numbers. But they are irrelevant. You have not proved that 'hundreds of thousands' of these engines had the spark plug issue. Read the list of vehicles on Ford's TSB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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