New Flagship LIncoln in the Works

[jpd80]

Meanwhile in a galaxy far, far away, a supercharged Coyote Falcon roars into life..

Edited October 7, 2010 by jpd80

[sullynd]

Meanwhile in a galaxy far, far away, a supercharged Coyote Falcon roars into life..

 

Which is it, the Miami Galaxie?

[jpd80]

Which is it, the Miami Galaxie?

Guess I made a typo, must be the Continental drift in this thread....

[fou_bleu]

Instead of focusing only the demise of the G8, how about focusing on the RWD vehicles that do well.

 

Amen! :D

[rmc523]

Let's see.....Chrysler sold almost 11,000 new RWD/4WD Grand Cherokees last month. Cadillac sold almost 4,000 RWD CTSs last month and regularly tops 4,000. And if refreshed RWD Charger and 300 get spike in sales, I would say there is a market for RWD vehicles other than sport coupes, sports cars, and pickups. Instead of focusing only the demise of the G8, how about focusing on the RWD vehicles that do well.

 

I emphasized the key word in that statement.

[NickF1011]

Let's see.....Chrysler sold almost 11,000 new RWD/4WD Grand Cherokees last month.

 

Ford sold 10,000+ FWD/AWD Edges last month.

 

Cadillac sold almost 4,000 RWD CTSs last month and regularly tops 4,000.

 

And they sold a similar number of FWD/AWD SRX's.

 

And if refreshed RWD Charger and 300 get spike in sales,

 

Maybe, maybe not.

 

I would say there is a market for RWD vehicles other than sport coupes, sports cars, and pickups. Instead of focusing only the demise of the G8, how about focusing on the RWD vehicles that do well.

 

Sure, there is a market for them. But simply because there is a market for RWD-based vehicles doesn't mean there ISN'T a market for FWD-based vehicles.

[FordBuyer]

I emphasized the key word in that statement.

 

So did the Chrysler 300 drop in sales after doing well because Chrysler didn't update it, or because very few now will buy a RWD vehicle? And would the Mustang sell better as FWD model? I would argue that the 300 dropped in sales because Chrysler hasn't had the time or money to update it. We will now see how it sells after what hopefully is a strong update along with the Charger. And I would bet most Fordophiles would jump up and own over a new Thunderbird and even more if it was RWD based. Auto companies need exciting products every now and then also to keep up interest. Since it takes 2-3 years for a new product to hit dealer, now is the time to start thinking about these things. And you always have to pay attenton to the competition to see where the market is going.I personally see a life for RWD biased vehicles and hope Ford has a few of them. That sweet 5.0 V8 deserves to be in more than just Mustang and F-150 before CAFE rules hit full force.

[RichardJensen]

Your argument about RWD vehicles that sell well is bolstered by examples from companies that have terrible management.

 

Is it your assertion that Ford should trade management capable of finding its collective backside without needing both hands and a flashlight for management that is committed to RWD and otherwise clueless?

[NickF1011]

We will now see how it sells after what hopefully is a strong update along with the Charger.

 

Based on the production Charger shots, I'm not expecting a whole heck of a lot from the 300.

[FordBuyer]

Ford sold 10,000+ FWD/AWD Edges last month.

 

 

 

And they sold a similar number of FWD/AWD SRX's.

 

 

 

Maybe, maybe not.

 

 

 

Sure, there is a market for them. But simply because there is a market for RWD-based vehicles doesn't mean there ISN'T a market for FWD-based vehicles.

 

Who said there isn't a market for FWD vehicles? My only concern is that Ford seems to be turning into an all FWD auto company, that is all. And I'm certainly not the only one noticing it as Ranger, Panther, and RWD Explorer leave the scene. If all the global platforms are FWD, then is there a place for a RWD biased vehicle in Ford's lineup. Many of you don't seem to care or actually don't see any place for RWD in anything other than pickups and maybe Mustang. If Ford doesn't have RWD biased passenger vehicles anymore, you can bet other auto companies will and will prosper with them as there is a market out there for them, especially if the supply is low and demand higher. FWD is great for small vehicles and sizes up to mid sized as they offer more interior space, lower front profile with engine mounted sideways, and better traction in winter. But on high performance vehicles and bigger vehicles, RWD has its advantages. Lincoln would be perfect place to offer new RWD vehicle, and T-Bird would be another great place to offer it. And I believe Ford will do just that once the Mustang is redesigned on flexible RWD platform. They must recognize this need for RWD in certain segments.

[FordBuyer]

Your argument about RWD vehicles that sell well is bolstered by examples from companies that have terrible management.

 

Is it your assertion that Ford should trade management capable of finding its collective backside without needing both hands and a flashlight for management that is committed to RWD and otherwise clueless?

 

Ford has managed Lincoln as badly if not worse than GM and Chrysler have managed their divisions. And based on what we have heard so far about Lincoln plans, there is no reason to be hopeful yet. Like it or not, RWD right now is seen as more upscale as in unorthodox since much of the competition has gone to FWD which is now seen as more pedestrian. Chrysler is smart to be seen as company with decent fleet of bigger RWD passenger vehicles. More than just police departments will notice also. Ford has a perfect opportunity now to offer a RWD vehicle in its Lincoln lineup, and I hope Ford takes advantage of that opportunity. Again, that 5.0 V8 belongs in a luxurious Lincoln sedan and coupe that is RWD biased. Everytime I see a nice Mark Vll Intech V8 on the road lovingly taken care of, I hope for a new V8 RWD Lincoln sport sedan. Until this happens, Ford management is going through the motions with Lincoln.

[akirby]

Who said there isn't a market for FWD vehicles? My only concern is that Ford seems to be turning into an all FWD auto company, that is all. And I'm certainly not the only one noticing it as Ranger, Panther, and RWD Explorer leave the scene. If all the global platforms are FWD, then is there a place for a RWD biased vehicle in Ford's lineup. Many of you don't seem to care or actually don't see any place for RWD in anything other than pickups and maybe Mustang. If Ford doesn't have RWD biased passenger vehicles anymore, you can bet other auto companies will and will prosper with them as there is a market out there for them, especially if the supply is low and demand higher. FWD is great for small vehicles and sizes up to mid sized as they offer more interior space, lower front profile with engine mounted sideways, and better traction in winter. But on high performance vehicles and bigger vehicles, RWD has its advantages. Lincoln would be perfect place to offer new RWD vehicle, and T-Bird would be another great place to offer it. And I believe Ford will do just that once the Mustang is redesigned on flexible RWD platform. They must recognize this need for RWD in certain segments.

 

That depends on whether you're trying to make money or make headlines. You have to weigh the potential revenue against the development costs. Chrysler already had RWD platforms from Jeep and Mercedes. Ford screwed the pooch in the late 90s/early 2000s when they decided to build the very nice but extremely expensive and inflexible dew98 (Lincoln LS) platform and did a unique inflexible Mustang platform that couldn't easily be shared with sedans. Had Ford done GRWD back then we wouldn't be sitting here today without a viable U.S. RWD sedan platform.

[FordBuyer]

That depends on whether you're trying to make money or make headlines. You have to weigh the potential revenue against the development costs. Chrysler already had RWD platforms from Jeep and Mercedes. Ford screwed the pooch in the late 90s/early 2000s when they decided to build the very nice but extremely expensive and inflexible dew98 (Lincoln LS) platform and did a unique inflexible Mustang platform that couldn't easily be shared with sedans. Had Ford done GRWD back then we wouldn't be sitting here today without a viable U.S. RWD sedan platform.

 

 

Thanks for identifying the problem of North America Ford in 2010 not having a viable, flexible RWD platform for its passenger vehicle lineup. Mulally has stated a need for it and I will be hopeful that Ford will do something about it. Until then, Ford can expect criticism as seen on the new Charger thread. With Ford's new earned quality reputation, Ford could blow Chrysler's RWD vehicles out of the water if it CHOSE to compete.

[akirby]

Chrysler is smart to be seen as company with decent fleet of bigger RWD passenger vehicles.

 

How did that work out for them last time gas hit $4/gallon?

[Sevensecondsuv]

How did that work out for them last time gas hit $4/gallon?

 

Chrysler's gas mileage problem is a Chrysler problem, not a RWD problem. The RWD 3.7L Mustang get's better mileage than the FWD 3.5L Fusion. There are plently of other examples elsewhere in the market of RWD doing the same or better than FWD.

 

The gas mileage a vehicle gets has everything to do with its weight, engine, transmission, and aerodynamics. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether the front wheels or the back wheels are the ones getting power.

 

Also, I've been driving RWDs in the snow for many years without one single issue. It's all in the driver, rather than the driven wheels. Most people get in trouble because of the brakes, which work exactly the same on a RWD/FWD/AWD. The only different between RWD and FWD is if the car's tail will come out during a turn (RWD) vs. the front end not steering when you want to (FWD) when too much throttle is applied. Modern anti-lock and traction control systems solve both problems.

 

Besides, any RWD Lincoln will likely be a RWD-AWD, negating any differences in snow versus the FWD-AWD setup used in the MKS. The only benefit would be better driving dynamics due to a north-south powertrain.

[akirby]

Until then, Ford can expect criticism as seen on the new Charger thread.

 

Oh no! Not criticism. How will they ever survive?

[NickF1011]

Who said there isn't a market for FWD vehicles? My only concern is that Ford seems to be turning into an all FWD auto company, that is all. And I'm certainly not the only one noticing it as Ranger, Panther, and RWD Explorer leave the scene. If all the global platforms are FWD, then is there a place for a RWD biased vehicle in Ford's lineup. Many of you don't seem to care or actually don't see any place for RWD in anything other than pickups and maybe Mustang. If Ford doesn't have RWD biased passenger vehicles anymore, you can bet other auto companies will and will prosper with them as there is a market out there for them, especially if the supply is low and demand higher. FWD is great for small vehicles and sizes up to mid sized as they offer more interior space, lower front profile with engine mounted sideways, and better traction in winter. But on high performance vehicles and bigger vehicles, RWD has its advantages. Lincoln would be perfect place to offer new RWD vehicle, and T-Bird would be another great place to offer it. And I believe Ford will do just that once the Mustang is redesigned on flexible RWD platform. They must recognize this need for RWD in certain segments.

 

Have you seen me say anywhere that Ford shouldn't have a global RWD platform for large cars? Didn't think so. I just don't think it's the end of the world if that doesn't happen to be Ford's highest priority right now.

 

Ford has managed Lincoln as badly if not worse than GM and Chrysler have managed their divisions.

 

By all accounts, Lincoln still makes money, so no, Ford hasn't managed Lincoln as poorly as GM and Chrysler have managed many of theirs.

[Sevensecondsuv]

Have you seen me say anywhere that Ford shouldn't have a global RWD platform for large cars? Didn't think so.

 

The complaint is that you (and several others) seem very content to happily defend Ford's current devotion to FWD and utter lack of RWD product stateside.

[RichardJensen]

Ford has managed Lincoln as badly if not worse than GM and Chrysler have managed their divisions.

Ford did not go Ch. 11, GM and Chrysler did.

 

Ford BORROWED $5B from the government to retool MAC and build its own hybrid transmissions. GM and Chrysler got roughly $70B just to keep the lights on.

 

Lincoln vs. Cadillac, FWD Explorer vs. RWD Grand Cherokee doesn't matter.

 

Those numbers matter.

 

Ford is not in the business of imitating the worst companies in its industry.

[NickF1011]

The complaint is that you (and several others) seem very content to happily defend Ford's current devotion to FWD and utter lack of RWD product stateside.

 

I'm certainly content with the current decisions they've made regarding FWD platforms. I'm perfectly fine with the Explorer ditching its RWD roots. I'm sure most consumers will be as well. Just because the Grand Cherokee has an audience that caters more to offroading (duh, it's Jeep) doesn't mean the Explorer does.

 

The only place Ford is really lacking a RWD application is in a replacement for the Panthers and possibly the Ranger (which is being handled globally -- complain about Ford NA management not getting on board with T6 if you want to, but the company as a whole has addressed the segment), neither of which are high volume priorities anyway.

[Sevensecondsuv]

The only place Ford is really lacking a RWD application is in a replacement for the Panthers and possibly the Ranger (which is being handled globally -- complain about Ford NA management not getting on board with T6 if you want to, but the company as a whole has addressed the segment), neither of which are high volume priorities anyway.

 

Fair enough. But I think we could also agree that a V8 RWD/AWD or two in the Lincoln lineup would only be a good thing.

[NickF1011]

Fair enough. But I think we could also agree that a V8 RWD/AWD or two in the Lincoln lineup would only be a good thing.

 

A good thing if Ford could make a strong business case for them. I don't think Lincoln is in the position to support its own RWD chassis. If they could piggyback on the next Falcon or whatever the next gen Mustang turns out being like platform-wise, then I think there could be a case made.

 

At present, neither of those stablemates is at a point in its development cycle that would make sense for Lincoln to hop aboard now.

[BrewfanGRB]

Let's see.....Chrysler sold almost 11,000 new RWD/4WD Grand Cherokees last month. Cadillac sold almost 4,000 RWD CTSs last month and regularly tops 4,000. And if refreshed RWD Charger and 300 get spike in sales, I would say there is a market for RWD vehicles other than sport coupes, sports cars, and pickups. Instead of focusing only the demise of the G8, how about focusing on the RWD vehicles that do well.

 

Ok, let's see. Your first example is a vehicle that's from a company with great off-road history, but not THIS vehicle. (Grand Cherokees, generally, off-roading? Really? Yep, I know LOTS of people do it, but the vast majority of them can be found in mall parking lots). And your other example is an entry-level near-lux/lux vehicle from a company whose previous models nearly exclusively FWD.

 

The problem is you assume Jeep sold 11k Grand Cherokees BECAUSE it's RWD and Cadillac sold 4k CTS's BECAUSE it's RWD. Ridiculous. I'm willing to bet my next paycheck that the vast majority of Grand Cherokee buyers might know it's RWD, but probably couldn't care less. WHY, oh WHY do people here assume that 305 million people in the US think like they do? They DON'T CARE what makes the car go! God! Ford has a responsibility to build cars that will make the greatest profit not sell as many different types of cars as possible. At this point, it's better to argue with my 20 month old niece. She can at least be reasoned with.

[jpd80]

A good thing if Ford could make a strong business case for them. I don't think Lincoln is in the position to support its own RWD chassis. If they could piggyback on the next Falcon or whatever the next gen Mustang turns out being like platform-wise, then I think there could be a case made.

 

At present, neither of those stablemates is at a point in its development cycle that would make sense for Lincoln to hop aboard now.

It's a case of so near yet so far, had there been a really good case for a Lincoln sports coupe or even the MKR

then I'm sure that the 2005 Mustang would have kept its originally intended IRS and a few other chassis tweeks,

At the time, FoA submitted a design internally that Ford executives liked but but there was no space at Lincoln.

( That had nothing to do with FNA's MKR concept btw....)

Edited October 7, 2010 by jpd80

[NickF1011]

It's a case of so near yet so far, had there been a really good case for a Lincoln sports coupe or even the MKR

then I'm sure that the 2005 Mustang would have kept its originally intended IRS and a few other chassis tweeks,

At the time, FoA submitted a design internally that Ford executives liked but but there was no space at Lincoln.

( That had nothing to do with FNA's MKR concept btw....)

 

Given Ford's financial stability now, I think there are a lot more projects that will have the ability to get green-lit now as compared to the earlier parts of the decade. Now it's just a matter of time for the existing programs to cycle their way through again for some of these previously unrealized opportunities to move forward.