RichardJensen Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 For that much $$$ I would rather give the BMW X3 35i ( 300hp/300ft-lb, 8 speed trans, 5.6 sec 0-60, 4400lb towing capacity ) a try.... Hey, if you want to spend $45k on a vehicle with an Escape sized interior, neither I nor BMW will stop you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sranger Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 the Kuga has a towing rating of 4600lbs in the EU, but your mileage may vary. I am pretty sure that is with a Disel engine. I have never seen a gas 4 banger ( turbo or not ) rated to two more than 2000LB... However, I guess it is possible... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 (edited) I kind of want to try something different. The new Edge is also too expensive in my option.... I bought my 2007 AWD Edge SEL Plus with every available option for $32,000. A similar equiped Edge is about $41-43K now. For that much $$$ I would rather give the BMW X3 35i ( 300hp/300ft-lb, 8 speed trans, 5.6 sec 0-60, 4400lb towing capacity ) a try.... I have also noticed that you can get a Lincoln MKX with more or less the same features as a loaded Edge for about $45K.... A loaded Edge just does not make much sense to me.... they are nice though... Eh, to be kind of fair, there is a lot more content than there used to be. MSRP on my AWD Sport (only option I didn't get was rear seat entertainment) was around $42-43K. Walked out paying just over $40K including all tax/tag/fees after X-plan. A decently loaded SEL AWD would go for thousands less than that. I can't fault you for wanting to try something different though. The only time I drove back-to-back vehicles of the same model were when I had the Tauruses, but they were both hand-me-downs, so I didn't really have much choice. Edited January 12, 2011 by NickF1011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sranger Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 (edited) Hey, if you want to spend $45k on a vehicle with an Escape sized interior, neither I nor BMW will stop you. Actually the 2011 is larger than the 2010 models. The 2011 is a complete re-design. It is about the same size as the Edge now on the inside. It does still have a little less cargo room than the Edge however. It is now more or less the same size as the original X5..... Edited January 12, 2011 by sranger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sranger Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Eh, to be kind of fair, there is a lot more content than there used to be. MSRP on my AWD Sport (only option I didn't get was rear seat entertainment) was around $42-43K. Walked out paying just over $40K including all tax/tag/fees after X-plan. A decently loaded SEL AWD would go for thousands less than that. I can't fault you for wanting to try something different though. The only time I drove back-to-back vehicles of the same model were when I had the Tauruses, but they were both hand-me-downs, so I didn't really have much choice. I really like the new Edge with the new My Touch interior.... If I got one I would get a limited. I think the package on the Limited is about right for me. I also qualify for an X Plan through my Company, But can also get a similar plan on the BMW. However, the discount on the Edge would probably be a little better. Still, I spend a lot of time in my car ( 4-6hr a work day ). Any small SUV that can hit 0-60 in 5.6 sec would be a lot of fun to drive for the next four years.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 The C1 was incredibly bland looking, and wouldn't have sold because it looked like the C170. in your opinion. that did not explain why the far far more bland 2005 redesign was sold here. but styling wasn't the reason it wasn't sold here. don't try to remake history, it wasn't old here because ford NA was too short sighted to see that stale product does not sell. Neither the possibilities of a shared flexible Architecture, even if it was for a small car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 I am pretty sure that is with a Disel engine. I have never seen a gas 4 banger ( turbo or not ) rated to two more than 2000LB... However, I guess it is possible... that was for all models, excluding the 2.5l gas engine thought it was rated at 3500lbs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Not sure where you are getting your X3 pricing from, but I put together an X3 xDrive28i and with nothing but the Technology Package, Premium Package, and Convenience Package which offer up the most similar equipment to the Edge Sport AWD, it already comes to $46,665. The xDrive35i with the same options is over $50,000. And that doesn't even include things like Satellite Radio, Heated Front Seats, and Backup Camera that are included on the upper trim level Edges, and add over $1000 more to the X3's price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Not sure where you are getting your X3 pricing from, but I put together an X3 xDrive28i and with nothing but the Technology Package, Premium Package, and Convenience Package which offer up the most similar equipment to the Edge Sport AWD, it already comes to $46,665. The xDrive35i with the same options is over $50,000. And that doesn't even include things like Satellite Radio, Heated Front Seats, and Backup Camera that are included on the upper trim level Edges, and add over $1000 more to the X3's price. Saturday paper...loss leader....lease payment only $299 a month, 15 mile a month lease, $10 every mile after that with $15000 drive offs plus applicable taxes and fees... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 (edited) it wasn't old here because ford NA was too short sighted It was not sold here because Jim Padilla said 'you will not sell a new Focus here until you fix the old one.' The buy-in on C1 was early 2002, which was probably the nadir of Ford's reliability, post Donald Petersen/post Pinto. I don't blame Padilla one iota for forcing Ford's engineers to focus on quality over new product. Padilla was *terrible* as a product planner (he was responsible for the Freestar, Monterey, and the tepid '05 Escape refresh as well as the '05 Focus), but he--more than any other individual--is responsible for Ford's quality gains. Edited January 12, 2011 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Simple: You push down on the lock cylinder on any NA Ford and the door locks. That's not how the Fiesta works. Therefore, there are additional mechanical components to the Fiesta lock system that are not present in the NA Ford system. Yes, there is the matter of the extra switch using the FNA system, but the mechanical complexity of the FoE system isn't free. Regarding volume, just under 40% of Ford's global volume is in the US and those vehicles all, or nearly all, use that lock cylinder. what addtional components? Do you under stand how the electrical architecture works on modern cars? Controller–area network (CAN or CAN-bus) is a vehicle bus standard designed to allow micro-controllers and devices to communicate with each other within a vehicle without a host computer. CAN is a message based protocol, designed specifically for automotive applications but now also used in other areas such as industrial automation and medical equipment. every door in the car has it's own module, that module Triggers all functions in the doors from the locks, mirrors, windows etc. that said eliminating the actual interior lock switch would simplify the design not complicate it. that said it would easy to add electrical switches to each door to replicate the original function. It would be cheaper than adding a mechanical switch. We are looking to sell as many C-cars worldwide 2 million as we sold car in north America last year 2 million. We are trying to find the balance. Its not perfect, but we have only been doing this for ONE YEAR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 what addtional components? This reminds me of the CNN headline: "Mayor uses twitter to clear sidewalks." As it turns out, a website did *not* clear the sidewalks, people did. Twitter was just a communication facilitator. ---- The *lock cylinder* is the mechanical device which either allows the latch to work, or prevents it from working. On EVERY NA Ford, prior to the Fiesta, the lock cylinder's plunger could be depressed, locking the door, under *any* circumstance. With the Fiesta, that lock cylinder no longer works simply. It now has a cutout that prevents it from working under certain circumstances. If memory serves, the plunger in the driver's side door (and probably also the passenger side door, for RHD compatibility) can't be used when the door is open. I find it difficult to envision a scenario under which additional mechanical complexity is cheaper. ---- Electronics have nothing to do with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sranger Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Not sure where you are getting your X3 pricing from, but I put together an X3 xDrive28i and with nothing but the Technology Package, Premium Package, and Convenience Package which offer up the most similar equipment to the Edge Sport AWD, it already comes to $46,665. The xDrive35i with the same options is over $50,000. And that doesn't even include things like Satellite Radio, Heated Front Seats, and Backup Camera that are included on the upper trim level Edges, and add over $1000 more to the X3's price. The trick with an X3 is to not add too many packages. I would get an X3 35i with a black exterior ( save $550 on metalic paint ). Premium package ( mainly for the moon roof and leather seats ) than add heated front seats & Steering wheel. I do not need the nav as I have a iPhone and iPad that I carry with me for work. That is $46,065 MSRP. I get about a $3K discount through my company.... I would be tempted to add the $1,400.00 dynamic handling package that would up the MSRP to $47,400.00. It is a few thousand more than a Loaded Edge Limited. I realize that I would be giving up some electronics for better handling and performance with the X3.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 for better handling and performance with the X3.... What's the difference on a slalom course? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 (edited) This reminds me of the CNN headline: "Mayor uses twitter to clear sidewalks." As it turns out, a website did *not* clear the sidewalks, people did. Twitter was just a communication facilitator. ---- The *lock cylinder* is the mechanical device which either allows the latch to work, or prevents it from working. On EVERY NA Ford, prior to the Fiesta, the lock cylinder's plunger could be depressed, locking the door, under *any* circumstance. With the Fiesta, that lock cylinder no longer works simply. It now has a cutout that prevents it from working under certain circumstances. If memory serves, the plunger in the driver's side door (and probably also the passenger side door, for RHD compatibility) can't be used when the door is open. I find it difficult to envision a scenario under which additional mechanical complexity is cheaper. ---- Electronics have nothing to do with it. From the Fiesta's owners manual http://home.comcast.net/~roy952/11fstog1e.pdf POWER DOOR LOCKSThe power door lock control is located on the instrument panel near the radio. Press the control to lock/unlock the doors. When the light on the button is on it indicates that all doors and the trunk are locked. When the light is off it indicates one or more doors are unlocked. Rear door unlocking/opening Pull the interior door release handle twice to unlock/open the rear door. The first pull unlocks the door and the second pull will unlatch the door. Smart locks This feature helps to prevent you from locking yourself out of the vehicle. If the interior power door lock control is pressed while the driver or front passenger door is open with the key in the ignition, all door locks will lock, and then unlock. Locks and Security 131 2011 Fiesta (fie) Owners Guide, 1st Printing USA (fus) If both front doors are closed, the vehicle can be locked by any method, regardless of whether the key is in the ignition or not. Smart locks for intelligent access keys (IA key) (if equipped) This feature is intended to prevent you from unintentionally locking your IA key inside your vehicle’s trunk. If your vehicle’s perimeter alarm is in the armed state, the smart locks feature will not allow you to lock your IA key inside the trunk. When the alarm is armed, if the IA key is detected in the trunk, the trunk lid will automatically be released when you attempt to close it, as a reminder that the IA key is inside. If you would like to intentionally lock your IA key in the trunk of your vehicle, first disarm the perimeter alarm by unlocking the vehicle, then place the IA key in the trunk, close the trunk, and rearm your perimeter alarm system by locking the vehicle with the power door locks. For more information on arming/disarming of the perimeter alarm system, refer to Perimeter alarm system in this chapter. Central locking/unlocking To centrally lock/unlock all doors (from the driver’s side only) using the key from the outside when they are closed: • Turn the key counterclockwise to lock all doors. The turn signal lamps will flash twice. • Turn the key clockwise once to unlock the driver’s door or twice to unlock all doors. The turn signal lamps will flash once. If the central locking function fails to operate, the doors can be individually locked using the key in the position shown. On the driver’s side, turn the key clockwise to lock, and on the passenger’s side turn the key counterclockwise to lock. Delayed Locking If you try to electrically lock the doors while they are open, they will not lock until the doors are closed. This feature only works when smart locks are not active. See Smart locks in this section for more information Locks and Security Autolock (if equipped) The autolock feature will lock all the doors when: • all doors are closed, • the ignition is in the on position, • you shift into any gear putting the vehicle in motion, and • the vehicle attains a speed greater than 4 mph (7 km/h). If a door(s) is unlocked, the autolock feature will repeat when: • the vehicle slows below 4 mph (7 km/h) and then attains a speed greater than 4 mph (7 km/h). Edited January 12, 2011 by Biker16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sranger Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 What's the difference on a slalom course? It is hard to say. Few test of the 2011 are in. The one below is for the Euro spec version which ( according to BMW ) has more nanny control in the active stability... I have driven both and I personally think the X3 would be about 8-10mph faster through the Slalom course. I thought that the X3 was a lot more fun to drive.... ( of course it is hard to say if it is 3-5K more fun.... ) So far: BMW X3 = 66mph.... ( http://www.insideline.com/bmw/x3/2011/2011-bmw-x3-xdrive35i-full-test.html Europe Spec Model ) 2011 Ford Edge Sport = 56-58 mph ( Not much data available on the 2011. 2007-2009 = 56mph. I am guessing that the 2011 Edge Sport is better ) 2011 Ford Explorer = 58.5 ( http://www.insideline.com/ford/explorer/2011/2011-ford-explorer-limited-4wd-full-test.html ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sranger Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 that was for all models, excluding the 2.5l gas engine thought it was rated at 3500lbs. That is good news. Maybe the New Escape's capacity will surprise me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 (edited) From the Fiesta's owners manual http://home.comcast.net/~roy952/11fstog1e.pdf [/i] Thank you. I had forgotten which odious borrowing from VAG the Fiesta uses. It is the 'pull the latch twice' method of unlocking the rear doors. The whole system cannot possibly be cheaper or less complex mechanically than the FNA system described in the Taurus manual as follows: POWER DOOR LOCKS • Press the control to unlock all doors. • Press the control to lock all doors. Smart unlocks This feature helps to prevent you from locking yourself out of the vehicle if your key is still in the ignition. When you open one of the front doors and you lock the vehicle with the power door lock control (on the driver or passenger door trim panel), all the doors will lock, then all doors will automatically unlock reminding you that your key is still in the ignition. The vehicle can still be locked, with the key in the ignition, using the control on the transmitter, or locking the vehicle with the keyless entry keypad. If both front doors are closed, the vehicle can be locked by any method, regardless of whether the key is in the ignition or not. Smart unlocks for intelligent access keys (IA key) (if equipped) The smart unlock feature is intended to prevent you from unintentionally locking your IA key inside your vehicle’s passenger compartment or trunk. When you lock your vehicle using the driver or passenger power door lock control (with the door open), after you close the door the vehicle will search for an IA key in the passenger compartment. If an IA key is found inside the vehicle, all of the doors will immediately unlock and the horn will chirp, indicating that the IA key is inside. In order to override the smart unlock feature and intentionally lock the IA key inside the vehicle, you can lock your vehicle using your keyless entry keypad or using the control on another IA key. Refer to Keyless entry system in this chapter for more information on keyless entry keypad operation. If your vehicle’s perimeter alarm is in the armed state, the smart unlock feature will not allow you to lock your IA key inside the trunk. When the alarm is armed, if the IA key is detected in the trunk, the decklid will automatically be released when you attempt to close it, and the horn will chirp, as a reminder that the IA key is inside. If you would like to intentionally lock your IA key in the trunk of your vehicle, first disarm the perimeter alarm by unlocking the vehicle, then place the IA key in the trunk, close the trunk, and rearm your perimeter alarm system by locking the vehicle using your keyless entry keypad or another IA key. For more information on arming/disarming of the perimeter alarm system, refer to Perimeter alarm system in this chapter. Central unlocking/Two-stage unlocking for intelligent access keys (if equipped) When unlocking the driver door with the key, turn it once toward the rear of the vehicle to unlock that door only, if the two-stage unlocking is enabled. Turn the key a second time to unlock all doors. Two-stage unlocking may be disabled and re-enabled (to allow all vehicle doors to unlock simultaneously) by simultaneously pressing the and controls on the transmitter for four seconds. Note: The turn lamps will flash twice to confirm that a change to the feature has occurred. Autolock feature (if enabled) The autolock feature will lock all the doors when: • all the doors are closed, • the ignition on, • you shift into any gear putting the vehicle in motion, and • the vehicle attains a speed greater than 12 mph (20 km/h). The autolock feature repeats when: • any door is opened then closed while the ignition is on and the vehicle speed is 9 mph (15 km/h) or lower, and • the vehicle then attains a speed greater than 12 mph (20 km/h). Edited January 12, 2011 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Thank you. I had forgotten which odious borrowing from VAG the Fiesta uses. It is the 'pull the latch twice' method of unlocking the rear doors. The whole system cannot possibly be cheaper or less complex mechanically than the FNA system described in the Taurus manual as follows: In fairness, the fiesta was the first of the latest breed of global vehicles, there will be niggles and changes needed such as the ones you've cited. It's how Ford addresses those issues in the MCE or more importantly what happens with new Focus and Fusion/Mondeo further on. I would expect that Ford is learning what needs to be in and what needs to change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Judging by the photos, Focus also has those rather obnoxious 'features'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 (edited) Judging by the photos, Focus also has those rather obnoxious 'features'. What are the controls on the driver's door? Windows and central locking? Edited January 12, 2011 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 What are the controls on the driver's door? Windows and central locking? Power Mirrors and Windows. The lock button is visible next to the Hazard button on the stack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Top to bottom, driver's side: Mirror (note, they've jettisoned the FNA joystick) Windows Window lock Central lock is next to the hazard on the center stack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Top to bottom, driver's side: Mirror (note, they've jettisoned the FNA joystick) Windows Window lock Central lock is next to the hazard on the center stack. Question is do you feel that: 1) the Focus as being offered could have been regionalized economically and achieve more sales? 2) the Focus as offered will be more than acceptable to most buyers that cross shop other makes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 which is easier? or this For radio controls? The NA model. For HVAC? The EU model. And that is precisely my issue. By going all in on the EU way of doing things, Ford is dismissing sound NA ergonomics. And almost certainly increasing cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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