Ford's Alan Mulally wants Lincoln on par with BMW, Lexus..

[stpatrick90]

In what ways is the MKS competitive with the competition? Price? Yes. Exterior styling? Subjectively yes. Engine performance of 3.7 L 271hp V6? No. Interior? Not really even compared to Edge and Taurus. Handling? No. Chassis? No. Resale Value? No. Has sales held up over time? No. Lincoln needs a new MKS soon. I thought this year, but latest auto review that called it uncompetitive said not until 2013. I hope they are wrong or Lincoln dealers are even in more trouble than noted already.

 

I really don't think Porsche sales compared to Lincoln sales are comparable. Not that many years ago Ford was selling over 200,000 Lincolns and over 400,000 Mercurys. I would say comparing Cadillac sales with Lincoln sales is better comparison by far. If Porsche sells over 2,000 vehicles/month in America, they are happy. Through November of 2010, only 2,000 Boxsters had been sold and selling over 400 of them in one month is outstanding. Expectations are completely different. However, Porsche sold over 900 Cayennes in November and over 700 Panameras. Not bad for that company. I doubt if Ford is ecstatic over selling 500 MKT's and 1,000 MKS's/month when not long ago Lincoln sold over 200,000 vehicle/year.

 

As the OWNER of BOTH a MKS and a S6 (yes that is an Audi) I have first hand experience and can say that the Lincoln has every bit as good materials and fit/finish. Admittedly the interior design of the MKS is a bit more bland than the S6 but that is no means a demerit to its overall quality.

 

Also I wasn't comparing Porsche sales to Lincoln sales but rather mocking your ability to throw out random numbers that are clearly opinion but somehow you still manage to declare them fact. .

 

As the numbers below show, the MKS certainly is more competitive than you would like to acknowledge. Is it the best, no; does it compete, yes!

 

Lincoln MKS 3.7L AWD

271hp

0-60 7.0sec

Lat Accel .81g

My link

 

Cadillac STS 3.6L RWD

302hp

0-60 6.2sec

Lat Accel .86g

My link

 

Acura RL 3.7L SH-AWD

300hp

0-60 6.5

Lat Accel .84g

My link

 

Hyundai Genesis 3.8L RWD

290hp

0-60 6.0sec

Lat Accel .86g

My link

 

MB E350 3.5L RWD

268hp

0-60 6.3sec

Lat Accel .84g

My link

 

Jaguar XF 4.2L RWD

300hp

0-60 6.1sec

Lat Accel .79g

My link

Edited January 27, 2011 by stpatrick90

[jpd80]

When? In 1998, when Lincoln was the best selling luxury brand in the US, it sold only 187,000 vehicles.

No, 2000 when they sold 193,000 BUT:

1) Town Car 81,399

2) Continental 22,648

3) LS 51,039

4) Navigator 37,923

 

Anyone with half a brain can see what is wrong with this picture,

today's market is completely different, no comparison is possible.

[2005Explorer]

Actually, when the MKS first came out, I liked it a lot and it did sell decent (over 2,000/month :shades: . But it hasn't aged well and its flaws are sticking out. The EB MKS is competitive in some ways, but the base MKS does nothing particularly well. And it shows as sales keep dropping so that I doubt if it can even maintain 1,000/month sales level even with EB.

 

The biggest problem with MKS sales right now is that many customers are probably cross-shopping it with the Taurus. In fact that is one of the problems with not having more exclusive Lincoln dealerships. If you visit a Ford-Lincoln dealership there is a good chance that you will be presented with 2 cars that are fairly similar excluding the extra touches Ford gives to the MKS over the Taurus. You have to get to a point where an MKS customer would never consider the Taurus because the MKS is so much better or that because owning a Lincoln is a status symbol because the brand is held in very high regards. I don't think declining sales has anything to do with the quality of the car. In fact, when the MKS was selling well the current Taurus did not exist and there was a huge styling difference between the stodgy looking former 500 based Taurus and the MKS. Today both vehicles look good and some might even prefer the styling of the current Taurus. When you compare the SHO to the MKS EcoBoost it becomes even harder to recommend the Lincoln over the Ford because the SHO offers an extra 10 HP and many of the same features, but at a lower price.

 

I still believe to make a case to keep and expand Lincoln there needs to be more reasons then just real wood, better carpet, and more sound insulation. I think Ford understands this and knows that to re-build Lincoln to a true luxury car division it is not going to be cheap and it is not going to be fast. Even though the current strategy for Lincoln might be profitable it is not sustainable. Keeping the current strategy will end in Lincoln turning into Mercury and we all know what happens then... cancellation.

 

We don't really know what Ford's next direction will be, but they have told us the plan on building Lincoln into something better then it is today. What that means at the present time no one really knows except the people in the design studios. If Ford was completely focused on profitability the Lincoln brand probably would have been axed along with Mercury, but I think they also realize maintaining a proper luxury brand is important for the reputation of the automaker. At least it used to be... not sure... maybe times are changing.

[FordBuyer]

No, 2000 when they sold 193,000 BUT:

1) Town Car 81,399

2) Continental 22,648

3) LS 51,039

4) Navigator 37,923

 

Anyone with half a brain can see what is wrong with this picture,

today's market is completely different, no comparison is possible.

 

Cadillac sales for 2010..........146,924 +35%

 

Lincoln sales for 2010............. 85,828 +3.6%

 

MKZ...22,535+2.8%

MKS...14,417-16.1%

MKX...21,932+2.3%

MKT...7,435+188.2%

 

Where is the good news with new Lincoln products here? Full year of MKT sales, new MKZ hybrid, new MKX, and second full year for fairly new MKS and their sales are essentially flat for year when every other luxury brand is enjoying double digit sales inceases year over year. Meanwhile, Cadillac sells over 60,000 SRX's and over 50,000 CTS's. And GM just came out of bankruptcy not that long ago.

[2005Explorer]

Cadillac sales for 2010..........146,924 +35%

 

Lincoln sales for 2010............. 85,828 +3.6%

 

MKZ...22,535+2.8%

MKS...14,417-16.1%

MKX...21,932+2.3%

MKT...7,435+188.2%

 

Where is the good news with new Lincoln products here? Full year of MKT sales, new MKZ hybrid, new MKX, and second full year for fairly new MKS and their sales are essentially flat for year when every other luxury brand is enjoying double digit sales inceases year over year. Meanwhile, Cadillac sells over 60,000 SRX's and over 50,000 CTS's. And GM just came out of bankruptcy not that long ago.

 

Have you considered that GM has been working hard and spending a lot of money on improving Cadillac over the past few years? Ford decided to focus on the Ford brand first and get it fixed. They say they are now going to set their sights on fixing Lincoln and making it better since Mercury is out of the way. Why don't we give them a chance? If they continue the same product strategy then fine go ahead and criticize all you want... but lets see what they have in the pipeline. I would say that Ford's strategy for survival was better then GM's... wouldn't you? Now since they are making money they have the resources to build a Lincoln line that is fully competitive with other luxury brands.

 

Let's wait and see... ok?

Edited January 27, 2011 by 2005Explorer

[PREMiERdrum]

Cadillac sales for 2010..........146,924 +35%

 

Lincoln sales for 2010............. 85,828 +3.6%

 

MKZ...22,535+2.8%

MKS...14,417-16.1%

MKX...21,932+2.3%

MKT...7,435+188.2%

 

Where is the good news with new Lincoln products here? Full year of MKT sales, new MKZ hybrid, new MKX, and second full year for fairly new MKS and their sales are essentially flat for year when every other luxury brand is enjoying double digit sales inceases year over year. Meanwhile, Cadillac sells over 60,000 SRX's and over 50,000 CTS's. And GM just came out of bankruptcy not that long ago.

 

MKX and MKZ Hybrid weren't widely available until late 2010. Fail.

 

Lincoln could sell many more MKZ and MKX, if they went the Cadillac route and decontented the hell out of them and sold them for $30k.

[TomServo92]

Cadillac sales for 2010..........146,924 +35%

 

Lincoln sales for 2010............. 85,828 +3.6%

 

MKZ...22,535+2.8%

MKS...14,417-16.1%

MKX...21,932+2.3%

MKT...7,435+188.2%

 

Where is the good news with new Lincoln products here? Full year of MKT sales, new MKZ hybrid, new MKX, and second full year for fairly new MKS and their sales are essentially flat for year when every other luxury brand is enjoying double digit sales inceases year over year. Meanwhile, Cadillac sells over 60,000 SRX's and over 50,000 CTS's. And GM just came out of bankruptcy not that long ago.

 

So if, for instance, GM put 4X the amount of money into Caddy as Ford did into Lincoln with less than 2X the sales, what does that mean to you?

[aneekr]

BMW 5-Series: 3.0L 240hp

Lexus GS: 3.5L 303hp

Audi A6: 3.2L 265hp

Mercedes E-Class: 3.5L 268hp

In the executive car segment, customers are likely to be more concerned with synergy between engine and transmission and powertrain NVH attenuation than with peak power numbers. On both of those measures, the 3.7L Duratec engine and 6F transmission of the base MKS fall short. And, as stpatrick90's figures in post #227 indicate, it doesn't outperform its competitors in performance measures related to the powertrain anyway.

 

Having driven each of the cars you noted above, along with the 3.7L Acura RL, Infiniti M35 (previous gen Y50), and 3.8L Hyundai Genesis sedan, I can understand why a potential executive car customer would be dissuaded from considering the non-Ecoboost MKS based on its powertrain alone.

[stpatrick90]

Cadillac sales for 2010..........146,924 +35%

 

Lincoln sales for 2010............. 85,828 +3.6%

 

MKZ...22,535+2.8%

MKS...14,417-16.1%

MKX...21,932+2.3%

MKT...7,435+188.2%

 

Where is the good news with new Lincoln products here? Full year of MKT sales, new MKZ hybrid, new MKX, and second full year for fairly new MKS and their sales are essentially flat for year when every other luxury brand is enjoying double digit sales inceases year over year. Meanwhile, Cadillac sells over 60,000 SRX's and over 50,000 CTS's. And GM just came out of bankruptcy not that long ago.

 

The entire Lincoln lineup is a failure. None of these models sold more than the magical 2000units/month mark; I think that means they have to cut all these models.

 

/sarcasm

[stpatrick90]

In the executive car segment, customers are likely to be more concerned with synergy between engine and transmission and powertrain NVH attenuation than with peak power numbers. On both of those measures, the 3.7L Duratec engine and 6F transmission of the base MKS fall short. And, as stpatrick90's figures in post #227 indicate, it doesn't outperform its competitors in performance measures related to the powertrain anyway.

 

Having driven each of the cars you noted above, along with the 3.7L Acura RL, Infiniti M35 (previous gen Y50), and 3.8L Hyundai Genesis sedan, I can understand why a potential executive car customer would be dissuaded from considering the non-Ecoboost MKS based on its powertrain alone.

 

While the MKS may not outperform any of its competitors it certainly is in the same ballpark.

Additionally the MKS 3.7L will likely be upgraded to the Ti-VCT unit from the MKX/Mustang which will go a great distance to remedying any powertrain shortcomings it may have.

[RichardJensen]

In the executive car segment

That wasn't the point raised by FB. FB said that the MKS was lacking in terms of HP.

 

He also said that Lincoln sold over 200k units in 'the recent past', which is also false.

 

The Lincoln MKS is the Lincoln equivalent of the 2006 Ford Fusion. A good first effort.

[RichardJensen]

Cadillac sells over 60,000 SRX's

I'd give you even money that the Edge carries a higher average transaction price than the SRX.

[FordBuyer]

While the MKS may not outperform any of its competitors it certainly is in the same ballpark.

Additionally the MKS 3.7L will likely be upgraded to the Ti-VCT unit from the MKX/Mustang which will go a great distance to remedying any powertrain shortcomings it may have.

 

Hopefully the next MKS will be much more competitive than it is now, and I suspect it will, but as of now the present base engine MKS is NOT competitive. No way would I pay premium price for present MKS with engine not even as good as $25,000 Mustang V6. I don't see how the present base MKS can go on much longer. MKS sales are going to be especially brutal starting this month and continue until Ford comes to the rescue. Spin it any way you want, but it's sad how far Ford has let Lincoln fall. I don't think it's asking too much for Ford to have two competitive brands in marketplace. Right now it's only one.

[RichardJensen]

Hopefully the next MKS will be much more competitive than it is now, and I suspect it will, but as of now the present base engine MKS is NOT competitive. No way would I pay premium price for present MKS with engine not even as good as $25,000 Mustang V6. I don't see how the present base MKS can go on much longer. MKS sales are going to be especially brutal starting this month and continue until Ford comes to the rescue. Spin it any way you want, but it's sad how far Ford has let Lincoln fall. I don't think it's asking too much for Ford to have two competitive brands in marketplace. Right now it's only one.

You are the first person I've ever met who is capable of being his *own* Greek Chorus.

 

----

 

And how about a straight answer to this question?

 

If Cadillac spends 3x what Lincoln spends and sells 2x as much, are they better off?

[rmc523]

In what ways is the MKS competitive with the competition? Price? Yes. Exterior styling? Subjectively yes. Engine performance of 3.7 L 271hp V6? No. Interior? Not really even compared to Edge and Taurus. Handling? No. Chassis? No. Resale Value? No. Has sales held up over time? No. Lincoln needs a new MKS soon. I thought this year, but latest auto review that called it uncompetitive said not until 2013. I hope they are wrong or Lincoln dealers are even in more trouble than noted already.

 

I really don't think Porsche sales compared to Lincoln sales are comparable. Not that many years ago Ford was selling over 200,000 Lincolns and over 400,000 Mercurys. I would say comparing Cadillac sales with Lincoln sales is better comparison by far. If Porsche sells over 2,000 vehicles/month in America, they are happy. Through November of 2010, only 2,000 Boxsters had been sold and selling over 400 of them in one month is outstanding. Expectations are completely different. However, Porsche sold over 900 Cayennes in November and over 700 Panameras. Not bad for that company. I doubt if Ford is ecstatic over selling 500 MKT's and 1,000 MKS's/month when not long ago Lincoln sold over 200,000 vehicle/year.

 

Wow, so a vehicle that was new in 2007 for the 2008 model year is being outdone by vehicles that are 2+ years newer than it? Who'da thunk it???!???/!

 

Now because it's Porsche the 2,000 sales a month requirement to be considered successful doesn't apply?

 

 

Oh, and which company was the most profitable auto company a few years ago? PORSCHE

 

Which auto company is the most profitable NOW? FORD - end of discussion.

 

 

 

 

Cadillac sales for 2010..........146,924 +35%

 

Lincoln sales for 2010............. 85,828 +3.6%

 

MKZ...22,535+2.8%

MKS...14,417-16.1%

MKX...21,932+2.3%

MKT...7,435+188.2%

 

Where is the good news with new Lincoln products here? Full year of MKT sales, new MKZ hybrid, new MKX, and second full year for fairly new MKS and their sales are essentially flat for year when every other luxury brand is enjoying double digit sales inceases year over year. Meanwhile, Cadillac sells over 60,000 SRX's and over 50,000 CTS's. And GM just came out of bankruptcy not that long ago.

 

Look at MKT up triple digits - oh, and by the way, it's sold at a 620 unit per month clip in 2010 - better than your Porsche-exclusive "successful" sales rate of 400/month.

 

 

Hopefully the next MKS will be much more competitive than it is now, and I suspect it will, but as of now the present base engine MKS is NOT competitive. No way would I pay premium price for present MKS with engine not even as good as $25,000 Mustang V6. I don't see how the present base MKS can go on much longer. MKS sales are going to be especially brutal starting this month and continue until Ford comes to the rescue. Spin it any way you want, but it's sad how far Ford has let Lincoln fall. I don't think it's asking too much for Ford to have two competitive brands in marketplace. Right now it's only one.

 

Again, you're comparing a vehicle that came out in 2007 to a vehicle that was just equipped with new powertrains this year after receiving a complete redesign last year? That makes sense how?

[jpd80]

You are the first person I've ever met who is capable of being his *own* Greek Chorus.

 

----

 

And how about a straight answer to this question?

 

If Cadillac spends 3x what Lincoln spends and sells 2x as much, are they better off?

After all the dramas of dedicated platforms, I find it quite amusing

that the top selling Cadillac is a re-skinned Equinox....

 

What's even funnier,

Ford could have used an upgraded Falcon variant with new top hat for a fraction of the cost of Sigma,

the fact that they chose their D3 FWD/AWD car shows great common sense in extracting the most efficiency

out of North American operations. IMO, either car could have done the job but D3 is logistically more practical.

 

In short, look at GM/Cadillac/Buick and know that Ford has better logistical strategy and

even though sales numbers aren't as great, I'm sure the profit generated speaks for itself.

 

People can crow on all they like about Cadillac's dedicated platforms, the fact that they switched SRX

from Sigma to FWD/AWD Theta says the people with common sense are slowly winning against the car guy

fraternity over at GM, next big car being FWD/AWD reinforces that point too and If they had half a brain,

that CTS II would have been a Zeta and saved huge bucks on build instead of Sigma II w/ Zeta suspension.

That way, they could build the car at Oshawa next to Camaro and close the line at Lansing.

Edited January 27, 2011 by jpd80

[RichardJensen]

After all the dramas of dedicated platforms, I find it quite amusing

that the top selling Cadillac is a re-skinned Equinox....

Game

 

Set

 

Match

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(BTW: You much of a tennis fan? My brother-in-law has been up all hours of the night the past week or so.)

[jpd80]

Game

 

Set

 

Match

Thank you ..

 

(BTW: You much of a tennis fan? My brother-in-law has been up all hours of the night the past week or so.)

A little, I've been getting my house ready for sale, hopefully only a month away from being on the market.

[stpatrick90]

Hopefully the next MKS will be much more competitive than it is now, and I suspect it will, but as of now the present base engine MKS is NOT competitive. No way would I pay premium price for present MKS with engine not even as good as $25,000 Mustang V6. I don't see how the present base MKS can go on much longer. MKS sales are going to be especially brutal starting this month and continue until Ford comes to the rescue. Spin it any way you want, but it's sad how far Ford has let Lincoln fall. I don't think it's asking too much for Ford to have two competitive brands in marketplace. Right now it's only one.

 

Ford just brought out the upgrades 3.7L, do you expect them to instantaneously have it available for all their vehicles?

 

How has Ford let Lincoln fall? Just because they don't sell like they used to doesn't mean they have fallen. Heck even Ford is a mere shadow of its former self with respect to sales, have they fallen too?

[stpatrick90]

 

Now because it's Porsche the 2,000 sales a month requirement to be considered successful doesn't apply?

 

 

Well you see Porsche is exempted because he owns one.

 

Also Porsche Boxster sales are naturally limited by the number of people who are Dentist and Plastic Surgeons from my understanding so it is a purely logistics issue. (My attempt at baseless claims)

[BrewfanGRB]

And how about a straight answer to this question?

 

If Cadillac spends 3x what Lincoln spends and sells 2x as much, are they better off?

 

Oh man, I HATE algebra! Wait...is this a trick question?

[FordBuyer]

Ford just brought out the upgrades 3.7L, do you expect them to instantaneously have it available for all their vehicles?

 

How has Ford let Lincoln fall? Just because they don't sell like they used to doesn't mean they have fallen. Heck even Ford is a mere shadow of its former self with respect to sales, have they fallen too?

 

Ford sales are up 21% and Lincoln sales are flat with Cadillac sales up 35%. What don't you get about that? Ford doesn't need Lincoln anymore for anything. The way Lincoln is today, I don't even see how Ford makes a business case for spending even a billion more on that fallen division. And those comparing Lincoln to Porsche are crazy. Porsche has always had a very small footprint in America and is basically known here as a niche, sports car maker that appeals to hardcore enthusiasts. Only recently have they competed in luxury SUV and sedan segment. And even Porsche has an iffy future as new CAFE rules kick in. Autoblog is already talking about possibility of Porsche bringing in diesel powered models. And Panorama magazine is saying that the Flat 6 engine days are numbered. Big changes coming.

 

The only comparison that should be made is between Lincoln and Cadillac, as they are traditionally much higher volume luxury brands and both domestic competitors. Not sure why you guys confuse Ford brand with Lincoln brand. I'm very happy with Ford brand performance and where they are going. And Ford has paid attention to Lincoln this decade as they brought out four new products. All are performing below average to downright poor. Lincoln has not been ignored as is popular perception. Mercury was ignored. Lincoln got the McFlex, not Mercury. Lincoln got the McTaurus, and Mercury lost its Sable. Lincoln got a McFusion and a hybrid. Lincoln still has the McExpedition and Town Car. Lincoln got the McEdge and Mercury got nothing. And still Mercury outsold Lincoln for 2010 even as Ford publicly ended Mercury in early October.

 

In summary, my view is that Lincoln is nothing more than a distraction and for Lincoln to become a factor again in luxury sales Ford will have to spend a lot of money. As has been stated on here so ELOQUENTLY, I don't think Ford is willing to spend the required money on Lincoln to make it truly special. So I support pulling the plug and concentrating on high end Ford models that would sell at higher volumes than pitiful Lincoln sales. I love the Lincoln name, but I liked the Mercury name also and it's in Ford's trash heap of fallen names.

[FordBuyer]

I believe most Fordophiles saw LM as Siamese twins sharing the same heart. Both totally dependent upon one another. Kill one off and the other one dies. LM dealers needed both brands in order to survive. Neither was strong enough anymore to go it alone. Ford believes that most Lincoln dealers will hang in there for another two years at least and I guess exist on service and used cars sales as they sell 20 new Lincolns/month if that. And even then Ford is still following same strategy of offering top end Ford models with Lincoln logo on them. Maybe a new RWD model, but new CAFE rules will be kicking in by the time that vehicle ever got to dealerships. Personally, I would rather see a new T-Bird and Bronco than see Ford spend that money on moribund Lincoln. Ford killed off Lincoln when it killed Mercury. The Lincoln Continental and Mark Series vehicles are too far in past and belong in our memories and vintage car shows only. Ford still needs more product and all Ford's concentration should go there. Lincoln is nothing more than a dot on a long sentence. Buy the remaining Lincoln dealers out and put them out of their misery.

[rmc523]

After all the dramas of dedicated platforms, I find it quite amusing

that the top selling Cadillac is a re-skinned Equinox....

 

What's even funnier,

Ford could have used an upgraded Falcon variant with new top hat for a fraction of the cost of Sigma,

the fact that they chose their D3 FWD/AWD car shows great common sense in extracting the most efficiency

out of North American operations. IMO, either car could have done the job but D3 is logistically more practical.

 

In short, look at GM/Cadillac/Buick and know that Ford has better logistical strategy and

even though sales numbers aren't as great, I'm sure the profit generated speaks for itself.

 

People can crow on all they like about Cadillac's dedicated platforms, the fact that they switched SRX

from Sigma to FWD/AWD Theta says the people with common sense are slowly winning against the car guy

fraternity over at GM, next big car being FWD/AWD reinforces that point too and If they had half a brain,

that CTS II would have been a Zeta and saved huge bucks on build instead of Sigma II w/ Zeta suspension.

That way, they could build the car at Oshawa next to Camaro and close the line at Lansing.

 

Yup, I completely forgot about that - the XTS - good point!

 

Ford sales are up 21% and Lincoln sales are flat with Cadillac sales up 35%. What don't you get about that? Ford doesn't need Lincoln anymore for anything. The way Lincoln is today, I don't even see how Ford makes a business case for spending even a billion more on that fallen division. And those comparing Lincoln to Porsche are crazy. Porsche has always had a very small footprint in America and is basically known here as a niche, sports car maker that appeals to hardcore enthusiasts. Only recently have they competed in luxury SUV and sedan segment. And even Porsche has an iffy future as new CAFE rules kick in. Autoblog is already talking about possibility of Porsche bringing in diesel powered models. And Panorama magazine is saying that the Flat 6 engine days are numbered. Big changes coming.

 

The only comparison that should be made is between Lincoln and Cadillac, as they are traditionally much higher volume luxury brands and both domestic competitors. Not sure why you guys confuse Ford brand with Lincoln brand. I'm very happy with Ford brand performance and where they are going. And Ford has paid attention to Lincoln this decade as they brought out four new products. All are performing below average to downright poor. Lincoln has not been ignored as is popular perception. Mercury was ignored. Lincoln got the McFlex, not Mercury. Lincoln got the McTaurus, and Mercury lost its Sable. Lincoln got a McFusion and a hybrid. Lincoln still has the McExpedition and Town Car. Lincoln got the McEdge and Mercury got nothing. And still Mercury outsold Lincoln for 2010 even as Ford publicly ended Mercury in early October.

 

In summary, my view is that Lincoln is nothing more than a distraction and for Lincoln to become a factor again in luxury sales Ford will have to spend a lot of money. As has been stated on here so ELOQUENTLY, I don't think Ford is willing to spend the required money on Lincoln to make it truly special. So I support pulling the plug and concentrating on high end Ford models that would sell at higher volumes than pitiful Lincoln sales. I love the Lincoln name, but I liked the Mercury name also and it's in Ford's trash heap of fallen names.

 

If you read my post, I didn't compare Lincoln to Porsche - I was saying how Porsche is suddenly exempt your magic 2,000 unit/month sales requirement for a brand to be successful.

 

Who is confusing Ford with Lincoln? If anything, you are by saying they should make top of the line Fords to replace Lincoln. We're just saying that you should see what happens with the Lincoln brand once Ford actually focuses on it as they have done with the Ford brand over the past few years. As others have also said, if they do a bunch of stuff and it fails or if they don't do much after a few years, then you can talk, but for now give it a rest and let's see what happens.

 

I'm not sure why every article/thread that involves Lincoln these days has to turn into a huge argument about the same thing every time (though I suppose there'd be nothing else to do then LOL).

[FordBuyer]

Yup, I completely forgot about that - the XTS - good point!

 

 

 

If you read my post, I didn't compare Lincoln to Porsche - I was saying how Porsche is suddenly exempt your magic 2,000 unit/month sales requirement for a brand to be successful.

 

Who is confusing Ford with Lincoln? If anything, you are by saying they should make top of the line Fords to replace Lincoln. We're just saying that you should see what happens with the Lincoln brand once Ford actually focuses on it as they have done with the Ford brand over the past few years. As others have also said, if they do a bunch of stuff and it fails or if they don't do much after a few years, then you can talk, but for now give it a rest and let's see what happens.

 

I'm not sure why every article/thread that involves Lincoln these days has to turn into a huge argument about the same thing every time (though I suppose there'd be nothing else to do then LOL).

 

Autoblog had a spy picture of an XTS mule and there seemed to be speculation if it was RWD or FWD. Some said it looked like it was based off Caprice platform. Time will tell. As for Lincoln again, the Platinum F-150 could not coexist with the Mark-LT Lincoln version. And I don't think a Titanium Taurus can coexist with an MKS whatever. If Ford wants to improve the outlook of the Lincoln doubters, then they have to tell us more. So far not much is being said at all and not even any Lincoln concepts as of late to tell us where Ford is taking Lincoln. You get the feeling that Ford is just putting out a very sketchy outline of where Lincoln is going that is not allaying any fears at all for the future of this brand. Maybe there is a real struggle going on in the inner sanctum and some like me are arguing for real change and others want to do what they have been doing that is not working. I say blow it up and start over or just put it out of its misery like Lincoln. Don't continue with same business model with $300 million top hats and 10 more hp than Ford engine.