Government: No electronic flaws in Toyotas

[RichardJensen]

An actual defect

Okay, let's talk about defects.

 

The DuPont sourced diaphragm that separated brake fluid from the cruise control shutoff switch on certain Fords was defective--it was not manufactured to spec. When it failed, it often caused shorts, and those shorts occasionally caused vehicle fires.

 

Now, I ask you: What was the larger issue here? The defective material, or the poor design?

 

See, the way I look at it, Ford (not DuPont) bears greater responsibility for what happened because there was no fusible link in the wire, nor was there a fuse on the panel, and the wire was hot even when the car was off.

[92merc]

OK, here's the part I don't get. Richard can probably back me up a bit on this part. But "most" of the US car makers have a data logger on their car computers. In the event of certain conditions, such as a crash for example, the data logger will take a snapshot of the engine conditions at the time of the event. I do believe this was used to convict former SD governor was speeding when he had his accident, and that he did not press the brake pedal. The computer showed a speed, and showed that brake lights were not activated. He was supposed to be stopping at a stop at a stop sign at the time.

 

So, if there were all these SUA accidents, wouldn't Toyota's data logger show something? If it was pedal misapplication, it would show all gas and no brake. If it was something else, it might show gas and brake. With software updates that won't be possible any longer. But my point is that Toyota has never revealed what their data loggers on suspected cars show. They don't even want to admit you can get data from the loggers. If we are to believe their story, only a handful of computers in the entire country can even read the logger. Call me a skeptic, but if I was being accused of faulty design or bad product, I'd be doing everything in my power to prove that wasn't correct. Including release the data logger info from suspected cars. They can do that without revealing their God Almighty super secret programming.

 

And that's the part that I just find too fishy, too convenient on Toyota's part. "Show me the money!" Until then, I won't believe anything Toyota says. That being said, my odds of buying a GM, Chryco, BMW, Audi, VW, Ranger Rover, Jaguar, Lamborghini, Ferrari, are all higher than my odds of buying anything Toyota branded...

[akirby]

The simple fact is that world-class scientists were specifically directed to figure out what the problem was, and performed all of tests that Toyota critics were calling for - electromagnetic radiation bombardment, a line-by-line software audit and a complete mechanical engineering review. They couldn't find anything, and it wasn't for lack of trying. After a certain point, it's time to say that there is nothing there and move on...

 

You can't replicate real world conditions exactly in a test lab. Nor can you recreate every possible combination of contributing factors. All you can say about such a test is that we did everything we could to recreate it and failed.

 

Perhaps there is a mechanical defect in 1 out of every 500,000 parts that combines with other environmental factors to cause the problem. No way you would find that out using lab tests because the lab samples won't have the defect.

 

 

The kicker for me is that SUA reports went up considerably when Toyota switched to ETC and their SUA rates were much higher than other brands even before the media frenzy. Pedal misapplication should be relatively similar across the board for all makes with or without ETC.

[grbeck]

Perhaps there is a mechanical defect in 1 out of every 500,000 parts that combines with other environmental factors to cause the problem. No way you would find that out using lab tests because the lab samples won't have the defect.

 

 

The government reviewed the very vehicles that were alleged to have accelerated out of control. If the alleged defects were present, they should have been apparent.

 

The kicker for me is that SUA reports went up considerably when Toyota switched to ETC and their SUA rates were much higher than other brands even before the media frenzy. Pedal misapplication should be relatively similar across the board for all makes with or without ETC.

 

Pedal misapplication depends on the driver, and not all makes - let alone models - have the same owner demographics. Older people are much more prone to pedal misaplication.

 

A good example is with the Panther cars. In the late 1990s Ford changed the brake pedal on the Panthers to make it more comfortable and less tiring for police officers to drive. There was almost no change in the unintended acceleration incidence of Crown Victorias. The Town Cars with the same pedals had a dramatic increase in unintended acceleration rates. The younger, better trained drivers had no trouble with the pedal change. The older drivers had issues.

 

I would also imagine that Toyota's switch to ETC occurred simultaneously with a major model change, which would have revised the interior (and thus, pedal placement, as well). A major model change also increases conquest sales, which means more people unfamiliar with Toyotas are driving them. From what I've seen - ESPECIALLY with the Camry and Avalon, the two vehicles most frequently mentioned for this type of incident - older people are abandoning other marques for Toyota, and, to lesser extent, for Lexus. Thus, you have a lot of older people driving a completely different brand of car. This contrasts to Buicks, which most owners have been driving for years (even decades), so they are familiar with the ergonomics.

 

Also note that Volvo has a much higher frequency of alleged complaints than any other brand. But Volvo doesn't sell millions of vehicles, so it doesn't make front-page news.

 

Finally, Ford is a close second to Toyota in actual complaints filed, especially after the unverifiable complaints are eliminated.

Edited February 9, 2011 by grbeck

[RichardJensen]

former SD governor

Grrrr. Don't even bring that up.

 

Yes, blackbox data indicated he didn't even slow down.

 

Folks, this is what happened:

 

This chucklehead was a Congressman, and was buzzing home to the little woman after visiting his mom in Flandreau SD (home of our own MY93SHO). Bear that in mind. He's driving from his mom's house to his house.

 

He's going like 90+ on this county road and approaches a signed intersection. He doesn't even slow down. Gets T-boned by a motorcyclist who was obeying the laws (as near as anyone could tell). Motorcyclist dies, and the Honorable ends up in a cornfield with his aid.

 

Eventually the HiPos arrive on the scene. And by then the Honorable and his right hand man have switched spots, and the lackey claims that *he* was the one driving the car.

 

The car? The car he's driving belongs to a Sioux Falls lawyer--privately registered--but it has state issued police lights in it. Which may or may not have been on while the Honorable and the stooge were blasting down Moody County backroads at well in excess.

 

On closer examination by the state's finest, it becomes impossible for the stooge to continue insisting that he was driving the car, so the Honorable 'fesses up. Later on, he appears in court and claims that he was delirious because he'd forgotten to take his insulin tablets. Therefore, he was unaccountable for his actions. Yep. The honorable tried the Twinkie defense.

 

He's sentenced to 100 days in jail, 2 years suspended sentence, and his law license is revoked for a similar length of time.

 

---

 

The kicker? A federal court determined that he was acting within his capacities as a Congressman as he was zipping along the section road at unlawful speeds on his way back from 'mom's', and therefore there can be no punitive damages, and the financial award is not paid out of the guy's pocket, but by everyone in the United States, including the family of the guy who was killed.

 

---

 

Some years after this, the Honorable is trying to move a horse trailer in a grocery store parking lot. He does about $5k in damage to some guy's car, hops out of his truck, looks closely at it, and then drives off. Several people see him do this and call the cops. When interviewed by the cops he insists that he had no idea he'd hit the car, and has absolutely no explanation whatsoever for why he looked at the damaged vehicle, let alone how he was able to look at the damage without seeing it.

 

---------------------------

 

Unlike aircraft black boxes, there's no standard form for data in car black boxes, nor is there a standard for how long data should be kept, or what data should be tracked, therefore, Toyota's black boxes weren't that useful.

[RichardJensen]

The government reviewed the very vehicles that were alleged to have accelerated out of control. If the alleged defects were present, they should have been apparent.

Not necessarily.

 

Your assumption is that once the situation occurred, the conditions that caused it would persist. That's not a sound assumption.

[PREMiERdrum]

Interesting discussion with a few of our engineers today about this... They, too, recognize this as a lack of proper failsafes, not necessarily a detectable defect in hardware or programming.

[CKNSLS]

Interesting discussion with a few of our engineers today about this... They, too, recognize this as a lack of proper failsafes, not necessarily a detectable defect in hardware or programming.

 

Gentleman, some of you are over thinking this. As I stated months ago - grey hair/blue hair folks stepping on the wrong pedal. It was painfully obvious from all the news reports YOU GUYS were posting.

[PREMiERdrum]

Gentleman, some of you are over thinking this. As I stated months ago - grey hair/blue hair folks stepping on the wrong pedal. It was painfully obvious from all the news reports YOU GUYS were posting.

 

And the incident where the gentleman, with NO floor mats, drove to his dealer, where the service manager witnessed the car revving on its own?

[timmm55]

Not necessarily.

 

Your assumption is that once the situation occurred, the conditions that caused it would persist. That's not a sound assumption.

 

Exactly, and those conditions were not reproducible in a lab. Case NOT closed.

[timmm55]

Gentleman, some of you are over thinking this. As I stated months ago - grey hair/blue hair folks stepping on the wrong pedal. It was painfully obvious from all the news reports YOU GUYS were posting.

 

You're under thinking it. And you're looking for a convenient scapegoat. Mark Saylor was neither old nor incompetent.

[CKNSLS]

You're under thinking it. And you're looking for a convenient scapegoat. Mark Saylor was neither old nor incompetent.

 

The Saylor case was caused by improper floormats (http://www.newser.com/story/82286/family-of-cop-killed-in-crash-sues-toyota.html).

 

As for the incidents going down, the explanation could be that (older) drivers became more aware of the operation, etc. of the gas and brake pedals, therefore dropping the number of incidents.

 

Another thing, I had a first hand experience on another forum, there was a guy who drove the same model 4Runner as I do. (This is the vehicle I may replace with a F150 or 250). He insisted it was unsafe and had SUA. And he was going to get rid of it immediately. I asked him to explain. You see when the air conditioner "cycles in" the motor's RPMs raise (when your stopped) and if your foot is not FIRMLY on the brake the car will act as it wants to jump forward. I don't know if this is a good design or not, but I have had my 4Runner for 6 years driven by the wife (except when we tow) and we have never run in to anybody or anything.

 

I am truly sorry for all people who had any pain or shock and felt it was the car itself and not the OPERATOR of said car.

 

Do we as a people take personal responsibility for our actions as serious as we should? Just asking?

[jpvbs]

I remember seeing statistics that were from dates before the SUA issue blew up and Toyota had very high SUA rates (incidents per vehicles sold). There rates were about 10 times higher than GMs rates. Ford was closer to the Toyota rate, but Ford's rate was still something like 50% lower than Toyota. That tells me something is wrong with the Toyotas since there are other "blue hair" cars out there that haven't had the same problems.

 

I am more suspect with Toyota's pedal placement than the electronics. People always like to refer back to the Audi pedal misapplication issue and say it was all just the drivers fault. However, as part of the Audi investigation, Audi ended up doing a recall to change the pedal arrangement as is was found that the arrangement made it too easy to misapply the wrong pedal. So while Toyota may not have a techincal problem, they may have a design problem. FWIW, in a tight parking lot, it only takes a 1/2 second of your foot overlapping the brake and throttle to cause an accident. It doesn't have to be stuck open for minutes to be a problem.

[92merc]

Finally, Ford is a close second to Toyota in actual complaints filed, especially after the unverifiable complaints are eliminated.

 

That's like the second or third time you've said that. Where are you getting the information from?

[Kev-Mo]

This is more of an exposure of a corporate culture problem, than a defect.

The real problem is that it was happening and they were hiding it. Regardless of the cause - electronic, mechanical, or user error, it was happening. The fact they swept it under the carpet is the real issue. If not for the high profile deaths that occurred in SoCal, they would have continued to ignore it.

 

So yes, - they are; "guilty".

 

"... “the time to hide on this one is over.” ...We are not protecting our customers by keeping this quiet,”

 

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-04-07/toyota-executive-urged-company-to-come-clean-on-pedal-flaws.html

Edited February 10, 2011 by Kev-Mo

[Deanh]

Grrrr. Don't even bring that up.

 

Yes, blackbox data indicated he didn't even slow down.

 

Folks, this is what happened:

 

This chucklehead was a Congressman, and was buzzing home to the little woman after visiting his mom in Flandreau SD (home of our own MY93SHO). Bear that in mind. He's driving from his mom's house to his house.

 

He's going like 90+ on this county road and approaches a signed intersection. He doesn't even slow down. Gets T-boned by a motorcyclist who was obeying the laws (as near as anyone could tell). Motorcyclist dies, and the Honorable ends up in a cornfield with his aid.

 

Eventually the HiPos arrive on the scene. And by then the Honorable and his right hand man have switched spots, and the lackey claims that *he* was the one driving the car.

 

The car? The car he's driving belongs to a Sioux Falls lawyer--privately registered--but it has state issued police lights in it. Which may or may not have been on while the Honorable and the stooge were blasting down Moody County backroads at well in excess.

 

On closer examination by the state's finest, it becomes impossible for the stooge to continue insisting that he was driving the car, so the Honorable 'fesses up. Later on, he appears in court and claims that he was delirious because he'd forgotten to take his insulin tablets. Therefore, he was unaccountable for his actions. Yep. The honorable tried the Twinkie defense.

 

He's sentenced to 100 days in jail, 2 years suspended sentence, and his law license is revoked for a similar length of time.

 

---

 

The kicker? A federal court determined that he was acting within his capacities as a Congressman as he was zipping along the section road at unlawful speeds on his way back from 'mom's', and therefore there can be no punitive damages, and the financial award is not paid out of the guy's pocket, but by everyone in the United States, including the family of the guy who was killed.

 

---

 

Some years after this, the Honorable is trying to move a horse trailer in a grocery store parking lot. He does about $5k in damage to some guy's car, hops out of his truck, looks closely at it, and then drives off. Several people see him do this and call the cops. When interviewed by the cops he insists that he had no idea he'd hit the car, and has absolutely no explanation whatsoever for why he looked at the damaged vehicle, let alone how he was able to look at the damage without seeing it.

 

---------------------------

 

Unlike aircraft black boxes, there's no standard form for data in car black boxes, nor is there a standard for how long data should be kept, or what data should be tracked, therefore, Toyota's black boxes weren't that useful.

man, that pi$$ed me off...the honorable is an a$$ hat....kharma will have its way with him eventually.....

[RichardJensen]

man, that pi$$ed me off...the honorable is an a$$ hat....kharma will have its way with him eventually.....

Better yet? It wasn't the first person he killed: http://www.keloland.com/NewsDetail6162.cfm?Id=87579

[grbeck]

Not necessarily.

 

Your assumption is that once the situation occurred, the conditions that caused it would persist. That's not a sound assumption.

 

Any more sound than, "The government after extensive tests didn't find anything wrong, but there still must be something wrong, because...we think so (and don't really like Toyotas)"?

 

The government's report has been discussed, debated and cursed on other automotive websites, and, despite the best efforts of Toyota critics, all that we have left is that these are cases of pedal misapplication, just like the Audi 5000 in the 1980s.

 

I came into this with an open mind. I don't care about Toyotas one way or another - I wasn't going to buy one regardless of whether there was an electronic glitch or even demonic possession that somehow only affected Toyotas. So far, I haven't been convinced that there is a defect here, and please note that the people who say that there is one bear the burden of proof.

Edited February 11, 2011 by grbeck

[grbeck]

That's like the second or third time you've said that. Where are you getting the information from?

 

The federal government's own database, maintained by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA). Several organizations that have examined the data have noted this.

Edited February 11, 2011 by grbeck

[NickF1011]

The federal government's own database, maintained by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA). Several organizations that have examined the data have noted this.

 

The last time I saw that list, yes, Ford had the second most, but was still nowhere close to the vicinity of Toyota.

[RichardJensen]

there still must be something wrong, because...

..........because pedal misapplication doesn't cover 100% of the events.

 

Further, I contend that the real defect in the system is its poor design, same as the Ford cruise control switch.

[akirby]

So far, I haven't been convinced that there is a defect here, and please note that the people who say that there is one bear the burden of proof.

 

We gave you the closest thing to proof that you can get when the problem can't be reproduced - symptoms that don't fit your hypothesis.

You're the one who ignores them.

Edited February 11, 2011 by akirby

[8A4RE]

Any more sound than, "The government after extensive tests didn't find anything wrong, but there still must be something wrong, because...we think so (and don't really like Toyotas)"?

 

Works for me. I like it.

[F250]

Government: No electronic flaws in Toyotas.

 

Meanwhile...

Toyota is recalling 1.3 million Corollas to replace defective ECUs because the transmission begins shifting erratic then the check engine light comes on and finally some just stall and have to be towed in. These are verifiable failures that have happened to many owners. But we are to believe these same ECUs cannot possibly have a throttle control failure...

[Vista Blur]

Government: We don't have too much debt.

 

Just because the government wont see it doesn't mean it isn't there.

 

there you go fixed it for you.

 

Doesn't matter I will never buy another Toyota, my family had a Avalon in 97 and a Land Cruiser in 99 both were very well made (imo) but the quality in their vehicles left some time ago and after the way they handled this recent problem it looks like its not coming back anytime soon.