Ford T-Series Coming to Kansas City

[Biker16]

Because VW is subsidizing it and because it is small enough and weak enough to avoid urea injection and more expensive catalysts.

 

Weak enough? You mean less powerful, or less durable?

 

why is VW susbsidizing their TDIs?

 

you would think it would be a bit easier to certify a smaller diesel like the 3.2 or even the 2.2 l than the mammoth 6.7? without urea or Costly Catalysts?

 

richard are you saying the Scorpion uses an additional $7000 worth of platinum and other rare catalysts, and equally hard to get Urea, in order to meet US Regs? I don't think so.

 

It seems reasonable that it would be easier to certify a small diesel like the 3.2 or 2.2 than a enormous one like the Scorpion.

[ausrutherford]

If both of these statements are correct, then the TC may stay an import !

 

TC is moving out of Romania. Spain will be the only place that builds the next gen TC.

[vision street wear]

what is V343N

 

V363N = North American Transit

[Edstock]

Weak enough? You mean less powerful, or less durable?

Less powerful. Smaller cylinder diameter and smaller combustion chamber keeps the particulates/NOx problem reduced so that urea injection into the catalytic converter is not necessary.

why is VW susbsidizing their TDIs?

Because it's a market niche that has a faithful customer base, and VW is willing to subsidize the diesel to get those sales and get people into the dealership, who might buy a gas version. Without the diesel to bring in the faithful, the VW would be a lot harder selling.

 

you would think it would be a bit easier to certify a smaller diesel like the 3.2 or even the 2.2 l than the mammoth 6.7? without urea or Costly Catalysts?

Probably not. We are still waiting on Subaru's diesel, and Honda canceled theirs. Once you get over around 2 liters, you need the urea/particulate trapping system, and when you do, whether it's a 2.7 or 3.2 or 6.7 isn't that important.

 

 

Urea is not hard to get, or particularly expensive. How many millions of gallons would you like?

 

 

[jpd80]

VW Jetta achieve low NOX without the use of urea injection. Instead it uses a nitrogen oxide storage catalyst controlled

by the engine management system, which periodically changes the vehicle's operating mode to treat the nitrogen oxide

it's stored up. VW says it reduces nitrogen oxide emissions by up to 90 percent.

 

 

VW is paying the price of using engine rich/lean and NOX trap to meet US emissions,

the fuel economy of their diesel is suffering appreciably compared to the euro version.

[Biker16]

http://www.blueovalforums.com/forums/index.php?/topic/46159-up-close-with-a-us-transit/page__view__findpost__p__717793

I'll throw some extra fuel on this fire. Inside these Transit testers are ETAS Lambda Meters (behind the seats) used for emissions measurements - as might be used to certify a Transit diesel against U.S. emissions. It's a Duratorq 3.2-liter I-5 diesel.

This post has been edited by mikeputc: 03 August 2011 - 01:02 AM

 

 

I personally just don't buy the $7000 premium for extra catalyst, a particulate filter and pee.

 

Economies of scale and a huge R&D can resolve alot of the cost issues.

[Biker16]

V363N = North American Transit

 

what is the difference between

V363 and V363N?

[vision street wear]

what is the difference between

V363 and V363N?

 

The V363 is the FoE vehicle, sometimes people call it V363E, and the N just means it is the North American version.

 

Example

C346 = Focus

C346N = North American

C346E = FoE

C346A = APA

etc

[vision street wear]

http://www.blueovalforums.com/forums/index.php?/topic/46159-up-close-with-a-us-transit/page__view__findpost__p__717793

 

 

I personally just don't buy the $7000 premium for extra catalyst, a particulate filter and pee.

 

Economies of scale and a huge R&D can resolve alot of the cost issues.

 

I think the number for emissions, for the 6.7L, is more in the ballpark of $1500.

[Biker16]

The V363 is the FoE vehicle, sometimes people call it V363E, and the N just means it is the North American version.

 

Example

C346 = Focus

C346N = North American

C346E = FoE

C346A = APA

etc

 

thank you.

[theoldwizard]

what is the difference between

V363 and V363N?

What ever "extra" parts it takes to build a US transit versus a EU Transit ! In theory, very little.

[jpd80]

What ever "extra" parts it takes to build a US transit versus a EU Transit ! In theory, very little.

It looks more likely they the3.2 I-5 diesel will be an option in US Transit,

is it possible that the I-5 diesel might be used in F150?

[Biker16]

V222?

[bzcat]

It looks more likely they the3.2 I-5 diesel will be an option in US Transit,

is it possible that the I-5 diesel might be used in F150?

 

Possible in theory but in practice probably not... Ford already had a diesel for F-150 ready to go but choose to cancel the program at the 11th hour. Light duty pickup trucks are essentially retail consumer vehicles in the US and the average American retail customers are not all that interested in diesel. Fleet buyers on the other hand are very keen on diesel; hence heavy duty pickup trucks had always had diesels. And why Mercedes is still selling diesel Sprinters. And of course since Transit will be about 99% fleet sales, the prospect for diesel is dramatically different from that of F-150.

[Biker16]

Possible in theory but in practice probably not... Ford already had a diesel for F-150 ready to go but choose to cancel the program at the 11th hour. Light duty pickup trucks are essentially retail consumer vehicles in the US and the average American retail customers are not all that interested in diesel. Fleet buyers on the other hand are very keen on diesel; hence heavy duty pickup trucks had always had diesels. And why Mercedes is still selling diesel Sprinters. And of course since Transit will be about 99% fleet sales, the prospect for diesel is dramatically different from that of F-150.

 

there is a critical mass for this product. you have two conflicting issues, Demand and Cost.

 

demand is low because the costs are too high, The cost is high because the demand it too low.

 

look at it this way, ford NEEDS A minimum of number of motor sold per year to make the biggest change in the in the cost equation, local sourcing. right now the sole soure of diesel engines is the UK, a high cost assembly point, moving the assembly point to North America will reduce the costs of fielding an engine.

 

So the issue if the issue of cost can be resolved with volume and the issue of volume can be resolved by reducing costs.

 

think about ECoboost how did ford address the Similar Chicken and Egg Issue. They committed to the product. and they resolved the Issues with the technology and made it a volume option to reduce cost.

 

Why the I5 and not the V8 or V6?

 

THe I5 is a much cheaper engine to build than the Lion Diesel motors.

 

no CGI

simpler engine design

much greater global volume, family includes the 2.0, 2.2 and 3.2 liter engine

300hp diesel is no longer needed in the light truck market.

 

Ford is seeking to develop a global Diesel to Meet Euro 6 and US Regs the Economies of scale would be enormous.

 

If the price goes does the volume will go up. If the transit and Super Duty are the primary markets for the new motor, in north america, the cost of offering it in the F150 would be minimal. they will obviously share the same Transmission and engine and emissions package, the costs of placing it in a new vehicle are nothing compared to the cost of making 50 state certified.

Edited October 12, 2011 by Biker16

[RichardJensen]

The problem is the cost differential has to drop below the likely payback for only marginally more efficient diesel powertrains (cf. Jetta diesel vs. Focus DI, now extrapolate to Focus 1.6EB).

 

If the premium for diesel over EB is such that you're looking at 5+ years to payback the difference, then it's always going to be a marginal offering against gas. It will only remain viable without subsidies (i.e. VW, BMW, MB) in the heavy duty arena--and even there it seems that gas engines are creeping upwards through Class 4 into 5 & 6.

 

If you can make diesel significantly more efficient than EB, or significantly less expensive than it is now, you've got something, but that's not near-term feasible. And I would argue that the increasing use of gas engines in once diesel exclusive segments suggests that diesel is, if anything, losing ground in the NA market.

Edited October 13, 2011 by RichardJensen

[jpd80]

A new I-4 and I-5 Diesel plant in South Africa now feeds new T6 Ranger plant.

This could be a cheaper source of engines than expensive Dagenham.

[Moosetang]

Update: E-Series Clarification

Ford has confirmed that it will continue to offer the long-running E-Series van in “certain variations through most of the decade,” meaning it will coexist with the upcoming Transit van, which will go into production in 2013 at Ford’s Kansas City Assembly Plant in Kansas City. It is unclear whether the E-Series will continue to be built at the Ohio facility or whether production will be moved to another location.

Via LLN

[Biker16]

A new I-4 and I-5 Diesel plant in South Africa now feeds new T6 Ranger plant.

This could be a cheaper source of engines than expensive Dagenham.

 

I still think they will source it in the Us there is alot of potential for this engine in trucks here.

[rkisler]

Here's the official announcement:

 

Transit in KC

 

Note that end of production of Escape at KC is in April, and Transit <J1> will be in 2013. I think biker called this one earlier when he mentioned Louisville was running late, but guess there could be some minor overlap between new model/old model Escape if Louisville is ramping up slowly.

[2b2]

wonder if the last batch will be hybrids?

the C-Max/Energi won't be in production yet by next spring, will it?

[Biker16]

To summarize what is happening to the plant.

 

for the Transit

New body shop.

modified paint shop

new tooling in the Final Assembly Area

all new Stamping plant

 

Some upgrades will be shared with the Next Gen F-series.

the 1.1 billion dollars to also pay for the retooing for the next gen F150.

[ausrutherford]

To summarize what is happening to the plant.

 

for the Transit

New body shop.

modified paint shop

new tooling in the Final Assembly Area

all new Stamping plant

 

Some upgrades will be shared with the Next Gen F-series.

the 1.1 billion dollars to also pay for the retooing for the next gen F150.

 

Is the Transit side going flex?

[theoldwizard]

Is the Transit side going flex?

Every assembly plant that has had a major upgraded for about the past 7-10 years has been flex.

[FordBuyer]

Here's the official announcement:

 

Transit in KC

 

Note that end of production of Escape at KC is in April, and Transit <J1> will be in 2013. I think biker called this one earlier when he mentioned Louisville was running late, but guess there could be some minor overlap between new model/old model Escape if Louisville is ramping up slowly.

 

Yes, I don't think Ford wants a repeat of the Focus availability/sales problems where it has taken MAP well over 6 months to even come close to meeting demand. With lots of present generation Escapes being around until probably June, LAP has adequate time to get its launch up to where it can at least do better than MAP and hopefully with less fit and finish problems. And hopefully the powershift trans will be a bit smoother and MFT will be improved. This is going to be tricky time as Escape becomes much more complex machine and tech platform.