BORG Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 (edited) I make no such contention. You refuse to acknowledge that Ford is a BUSINESS and exists ONLY to make a profit. It's not up to you or me how they do it (as long as it's legal). You refuse to acknowledge that that goal to create profit means a company cannot do all the willy-nilly things you want them to do. This makes me assume that my high school-level business knowledge would indeed be earth-shattering insight for you. What willy nilly things do I want them to do now? You mean sell more cars relative to the competition which is also employing those same business practices? I appreciate Ford's position of incremental improvement but I have very little sympathy for how well Ford is doing compared to its past. Edited November 2, 2011 by BORG 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 (edited) So you've seen the new MKZ Borg and it shares the same side view like the Edge and MKX do? If you have, why the secrecy? Be up front and tell us you've seen it already. I doubt very much if new MKZ is a Fusion with different front and rear clips and new dashboard like the present one. If your view is true, I hope Mulally tears up the design and forces them to start over. The cars I've seen are the ones we've all seen, and their exposed components are the ones that are shared. Which is to say the the bulk of the greenhouse and all of the glass, That does not constitute a fully differentiated top hat. What may distinguish this level of differentiation from the current one is the sheet metal on the doors is likely to be unique to the Lincoln which will free them up to create a substantially differentiated vehicle, but it's still identifiably a Fusion derivation. Edited November 2, 2011 by BORG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2005Explorer Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Who thought we'd see a thread where FordBuyer and 2005Explorer are the voices of reason. Is this one of those alternate realities where everything is backwards? Well thank you for the complement. I don't think I have ever received one from you so maybe you are correct about alternate realities... The only thing I have been saying in this thread is I don't want Ford to be cheap about Lincoln and I don't think they are going to be. It is possible the MKZ might share a few more pieces with the Fusion then what I or others here would like, however I do honestly believe the car will be MUCH different. There is no way possible they would promise so much and keep using the word unique if they planned to do another re-badge (actually I wouldn't call the current one a re-badge, I'd call it badge-engineered) like the current one. If it is released and one look makes me think Fusion then I'll say BORG is right... if I say... wow great effort on making it look a lot different and I can't really see a Fusion in it then everyone else was right. I honestly think they are going to do a great job on it. Ford knows the importance of this vehicle showing people what the future of Lincoln is going to be... either positive or negative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 (edited) Well thank you for the complement. I don't think I have ever received one from you so maybe you are correct about alternate realities... The only thing I have been saying in this thread is I don't want Ford to be cheap about Lincoln and I don't think they are going to be. It is possible the MKZ might share a few more pieces with the Fusion then what I or others here would like, however I do honestly believe the car will be MUCH different. There is no way possible they would promise so much and keep using the word unique if they planned to do another re-badge (actually I wouldn't call the current one a re-badge, I'd call it badge-engineered) like the current one. If it is released and one look makes me think Fusion then I'll say BORG is right... if I say... wow great effort on making it look a lot different and I can't really see a Fusion in it then everyone else was right. I honestly think they are going to do a great job on it. Ford knows the importance of this vehicle showing people what the future of Lincoln is going to be... either positive or negative. Well I'm glad to have brought everybody together. I'm not saying the MKZ is bad because it will have some obvious Fusion in it, but it's just more compromise that Lincoln hopes won't be noticed or valued. Edited November 2, 2011 by BORG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrewfanGRB Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 What willy nilly things do I want them to do now? You mean sell more cars relative to the competition which is also employing those same business practices? But WHY? I mean, I don't get what difference it makes TO YOU if they sell 2000 or 8000 MKZ's? I think my frustration is that while I'm sure you actually do appreciate that it's not as simple to just "sell more", it doesn't seem in your posts that you DO appreciate this. The market in which Lincoln operates is relatively small to begin with. I've beaten this to death before: But, many people who buy the 3-series don't do so because it's best possible car in its class. Shockingly, they buy it merely because it's a BMW. There may be very good reasons to buy a 3-series, but it being the best combination of factors is NOT one of them. As for Ford's cars, there are probably a dozen variables that explain why the Focus doesn't beat the Corolla, why the Fusion doesn't beat the Camry, why the Taurus doesn't beat...the Impala, I guess it is. The largest factor is ingrained consumer behavior. Sheeple keep buying the Corolla and Camry because they (unlike you) don't care one iota about style/design, features or driving dynamics. They want to put it in D and push the gas and not have it ever break down until it's time to buy a new one. As for the Impala---seriously, do you want Ford to do what GM has apparently had to do to get THAT sales crown? Come on, now. Think of markets where Ford does have the lead (trucks)...every other GM, Toyota, whatever fan is out there railing about Toyota not doing enough to "sell more" Tundras. (Of course, the difference there is the Tundra actually is an inferior truck, but that's a different story). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 I'm not saying the MKZ is bad because it will have some obvious Fusion in it, but it's just more compromise that Lincoln hopes won't be noticed or valued. Translation: "I'm not saying it's bad, but it's bad." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 I'M DRIVING THE NEW LINCOLN! Um, sorry, you're not. The NEW Lincoln will be the NEXT MKX, which will have its own top hat, active suspension and maybe active noise cancellation, and a style supervised from beginning to end by the new team director. Hang tough, Lincoln is the real deal: it just gets better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 The cars I've seen are the ones we've all seen, and their exposed components are the ones that are shared. Which is to say the the bulk of the greenhouse and all of the glass, That does not constitute a fully differentiated top hat. What may distinguish this level of differentiation from the current one is the sheet metal on the doors is likely to be unique to the Lincoln which will free them up to create a substantially differentiated vehicle, but it's still identifiably a Fusion derivation. The MKX and Edge are too similar. The Fusion and MKZ are too similar. The Taurus and MKS are not as similar. The Flex and MKT are the most dissimilar. I expect the new Fusion and MKZ to be even more dissimilar. If not, I will agree with you. Hopefully, unlike the MKS and MKT, the new MKZ will sell more like the CTS than the present MKZ. Keep the price the same with even more standard features and Lincoln could use one stellar seller short term until more help arrives. Who knows, maybe the refreshed MKS and MKT can pick up a few extra sales with more attractive noses and tails and more competitive engines. Three newer Lincolns for 2012 CY at least means Ford is putting some effort and time into its luxury brand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 But WHY? I mean, I don't get what difference it makes TO YOU if they sell 2000 or 8000 MKZ's? I think my frustration is that while I'm sure you actually do appreciate that it's not as simple to just "sell more", it doesn't seem in your posts that you DO appreciate this. The market in which Lincoln operates is relatively small to begin with. I've beaten this to death before: But, many people who buy the 3-series don't do so because it's best possible car in its class. Shockingly, they buy it merely because it's a BMW. There may be very good reasons to buy a 3-series, but it being the best combination of factors is NOT one of them. As for Ford's cars, there are probably a dozen variables that explain why the Focus doesn't beat the Corolla, why the Fusion doesn't beat the Camry, why the Taurus doesn't beat...the Impala, I guess it is. The largest factor is ingrained consumer behavior. Sheeple keep buying the Corolla and Camry because they (unlike you) don't care one iota about style/design, features or driving dynamics. They want to put it in D and push the gas and not have it ever break down until it's time to buy a new one. As for the Impala---seriously, do you want Ford to do what GM has apparently had to do to get THAT sales crown? Come on, now. Think of markets where Ford does have the lead (trucks)...every other GM, Toyota, whatever fan is out there railing about Toyota not doing enough to "sell more" Tundras. (Of course, the difference there is the Tundra actually is an inferior truck, but that's a different story). You only list the variables you can't influence, but there are many more that you can. You also failed to mention that the Fords are outsold by entries newer to the segment than Ford, such as Chevy and Hyundai. And once again, talk about sales is invalid in any conversation around here because we have unknown profit margins to bandy about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Translation: "I'm not saying it's bad, but it's bad." It's bad to me, not bad to others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 (edited) Um, sorry, you're not. The NEW Lincoln will be the NEXT MKX, which will have its own top hat, active suspension and maybe active noise cancellation, and a style supervised from beginning to end by the new team director. Hang tough, Lincoln is the real deal: it just gets better. There is no such thing as a new Lincoln. The new Lincoln has been evolving since 2005...every new car is the new Lincoln. This is like equating the new Fusion as Ford's new design direction...it's not new it's an evolution of what we've already seen. Edited November 2, 2011 by BORG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 (edited) There is no such thing as a new Lincoln. The new Lincoln has been evolving since 2005...every new car is the new Lincoln. This is like equating the new Fusion as Ford's new design direction...it's not new it's an evolution of what we've already seen. The biggest heart ache with Lincoln is that Ford would have some of the best utilities in the country yet they don't load Lincoln full of their best products like. Escape, they have MKX, but no Aviator and or fresh Navigator... All of those aren't that hard to do, arguably should have been done by now as they would make a heck of a difference Mariner should have become MKE, the money wasted on MKT would have given a new Aviator and how hard would it have been to put F150s engines in Navigator, WTF are they waiting for? Edited November 2, 2011 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 I'M DRIVING THE NEW LINCOLN! There is no such thing as a new Lincoln. OK, dude, which is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 The biggest heart ache with Lincoln is that Ford would have some of the best utilities in the country yet they don't load Lincoln full of their best products like. Escape, they have MKX, but no Aviator and or fresh Navigator... All of those aren't that hard to do, arguably should have been done by now as they would make a heck of a difference Mariner should have become MKE, the money wasted on MKT would have given a new Aviator and how hard would it have been to put F150s engines in Navigator, WTF are they waiting for? easy, they are prioritizing with first focus on the MEAT of the market...thus #1 is the new Z...baby steps J. New drivetrains for the Expedition and thus the Navvy are coming.....one happens to have a couple of hairdryers.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 The MKZ is a new Fusion. That I understand. actually EVERY vehicle is the new Fusion....they all have 4 tires and a steering wheel..... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MY93SHO Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 OK, dude, which is it? I didn't know Borg is running for political office! Classic talking out of both sides of your mouth. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang let back Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 as i have said before,if they dont come out with a 600hp rattlelac cts v killer forget about it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 as i have said before,if they dont come out with a 600hp rattlelac cts v killer forget about it. And what purpose would that serve, exactly? Your ability to win a bench race with cadillac fans? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang let back Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 And what purpose would that serve, exactly? Your ability to win a bench race with cadillac fans? since you have no clue,its show that LINCOLN can have a car on par or better than whats out there.remember FORD said they were going after lexus and a certain class of mercedes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 easy, they are prioritizing with first focus on the MEAT of the market...thus #1 is the new Z...baby steps J. New drivetrains for the Expedition and thus the Navvy are coming.....one happens to have a couple of hairdryers.... Yeah, I know..... It's just frustration when you can see the plan from way back but don't have the patience to wait... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 since you have no clue,its show that LINCOLN can have a car on par or better than whats out there.remember FORD said they were going after lexus and a certain class of mercedes. You're the one with no clue if you think Lincoln MUST have a "CTS-V killer" in order to be successful. That's the type of car you do AFTER you get the basic vehicles right. I'm not saying it would be bad - I'm just saying it's not necessary and there are other priorities to be handled first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2b2 Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 You're the one with no clue if you think Lincoln MUST have a "CTS-V killer" in order to be successful. That's the type of car you do AFTER you get the basic vehicles right. I'm not saying it would be bad - I'm just saying it's not necessary and there are other priorities to be handled first. imho they can wait to market and sell performance versions if they want but they must design that capability into the platforms & vehicles from the start + allow for iterations to get it totally right Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 imho they can wait to market and sell performance versions if they want but they must design that capability into the platforms & vehicles from the start + allow for iterations to get it totally right As we have seen with the S-80 Volvo tuner versions, the AWD platforms can do hi-po. IMHO, the hold-up at Ford is with AWD transmissions — the SHO Taurus, for example, at 365 hp, has to control and limit power output because the transmission can't take the torque. It seems like the EB 3.5 has no problem producing 400-500 hp, and the chassis will handle — maybe the new 8-speed transmissions we hear are being developed will handle that kind of power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 You're the one with no clue if you think Lincoln MUST have a "CTS-V killer" in order to be successful. That's the type of car you do AFTER you get the basic vehicles right. I'm not saying it would be bad - I'm just saying it's not necessary and there are other priorities to be handled first. The weapon of choice there would be a Falcon based product with new Lincoln top hat. At the moment, the S/C 5.0 is putting out close to 465 hp at the back wheels so adapting the AWD from Territory SUV would be advisable for a luxury performance Lincoln. I would hope that this is a long term goal for Lincoln as it would put Lincoln squarely up against CTS-V for a fraction of the cost that GM spent on Sigma platform development. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 The weapon of choice there would be a Falcon based product with new Lincoln top hat. At the moment, the S/C 5.0 is putting out close to 465 hp at the back wheels so adapting the AWD from Territory SUV would be advisable for a luxury performance Lincoln. I would hope that this is a long term goal for Lincoln as it would put Lincoln squarely up against CTS-V for a fraction of the cost that GM spent on Sigma platform development. And I still think it's possible we'll see a RWD Lincoln with 500+ either based on a new mustang or falcon platform. But I think it's more likely we'll see a 400-425 hp AWD sedan and if it's got the right styling it will be just as successful as the CTS-V at a fraction of the cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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