Ford Seeks to Make Lincoln a Glamour Car Again

[akirby]

I have been bleating about this for almost 5 years now. Goes in one ear, out the other.

 

To be honest, it wasn't really practical due to the cost and relatively small volumes compared to Ford's financial position.

 

Now that Ford is looking to invest in Lincoln the opportunity exists to do some of the things that they couldn't do before.

[Edstock]

To be honest, it wasn't really practical due to the cost and relatively small volumes compared to Ford's financial position.

 

Now that Ford is looking to invest in Lincoln the opportunity exists to do some of the things that they couldn't do before.

Um, supplying Revo-Knuckle upgrade kits is not hard or expensive. It's more a case of pull-the-pickle-out, and DO it. Same thing for heavy duty 6-speed manual AWD transmissions. But they have to pull their finger out, first. Maybe by 2020?

[akirby]

Um, supplying Revo-Knuckle upgrade kits is not hard or expensive. It's more a case of pull-the-pickle-out, and DO it. Same thing for heavy duty 6-speed manual AWD transmissions. But they have to pull their finger out, first. Maybe by 2020?

 

What does Revo-Knuckle have to do with beefing up the transmissions, PTUs, drive shafts and rear differentials to handle the extra torque plus all the new software to make it work correctly?

And why would that not be expensive to engineer?

Edited December 7, 2011 by akirby

[Edstock]

What does Revo-Knuckle have to do with beefing up the transmissions, PTUs, drive shafts and rear differentials to handle the extra torque plus all the new software to make it work correctly?

And why would that not be expensive to engineer?

I'm sorry, I assumed you'd be OK with the addition of other go-fast parts: let's be pro-active, not re-active. Remember the letter by Zora Arkus-Duntov? Zora was no fool.

 

And why would that not be expensive to engineer? Well, let's see, the Revo-Knuckle basic engineering exists, retro-kits for prior year Foci should not be a herculean task. It seems, to judge from the existence of WRC Ford sleds, that somebody has already done a lot of AWD high-performance engineering, so it seems that it would not be necessary to start from scratch.

 

As well, I suggested 6-speed manual transmissions. Not WRC sequentials, or DCT's or automatics, but simple, inexpensive manual transmissions, with the AWD capability, and you suggest this is unobtainium expensive? Please.

 

The point is, if Ford is ever going to really push on the ricers, AWD go-fast parts for Focus, Fiesta and Fusion might be really useful marketing tools over the long-term.

 

 

 

[silvrsvt]

As well, I suggested 6-speed manual transmissions. Not WRC sequentials, or DCT's or automatics, but simple, inexpensive manual transmissions, with the AWD capability, and you suggest this is unobtainium expensive? Please.

 

Ford won't be able to offer a Manual as an aftermarket accesory, nor would it be cost effective to offer it because of a limited take rate..and it would need seperate emissions testing vs a Powershift engine...

[akirby]

I'm sorry, I assumed you'd be OK with the addition of other go-fast parts: let's be pro-active, not re-active. Remember the letter by Zora Arkus-Duntov? Zora was no fool.

 

And why would that not be expensive to engineer? Well, let's see, the Revo-Knuckle basic engineering exists, retro-kits for prior year Foci should not be a herculean task. It seems, to judge from the existence of WRC Ford sleds, that somebody has already done a lot of AWD high-performance engineering, so it seems that it would not be necessary to start from scratch.

 

As well, I suggested 6-speed manual transmissions. Not WRC sequentials, or DCT's or automatics, but simple, inexpensive manual transmissions, with the AWD capability, and you suggest this is unobtainium expensive? Please.

 

The point is, if Ford is ever going to really push on the ricers, AWD go-fast parts for Focus, Fiesta and Fusion might be really useful marketing tools over the long-term.

 

I never said it was impossible or they had to start from scratch but you can't compare racing parts to general high volume production car parts. All I said was the effort to produce a true performance oriented 400 hp vehicle using upgrades to the existing AWD platforms would be expensive to engineer and that the applications would be relatively low volume making it an unwise business investment for a company still trying to get their core businesses comfortably profitable.

[Edstock]

Ford won't be able to offer a Manual as an aftermarket accesory, nor would it be cost effective to offer it because of a limited take rate..and it would need seperate emissions testing vs a Powershift engine...

 

Rats, it was such a nice delusion.

[Boss444]

All I said was the effort to produce a true performance oriented 400 hp vehicle using upgrades to the existing AWD platforms would be expensive to engineer and that the applications would be relatively low volume making it an unwise business investment for a company still trying to get their core businesses comfortably profitable.

 

Link?

 

Personally, I think Lincoln would print money if they developed/implemented a AWD system that can be turned into a RWD system at the push of a button. Snowy out? Leave the MKS in AWD that acts exactly as the current one. Roads dry and you want to have some spirited driving? Push a button and you now have a RWD car/wagon/SUV/etc. Great selling feature, the publicity it would bring to Lincoln would be massive, it would be an industry first (AFAIK), and you can bet other automakers (prestigious marques) would follow.

 

And considering the system now can handle 100% splits in power, it probably wouldn't be as hard as you think.

Edited December 8, 2011 by Boss444

[akirby]

Link?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_sense

 

And considering the system now can handle 100% splits in power, it probably wouldn't be as hard as you think.

 

The system now cannot handle 100% torque to the rear for more than a few seconds/minutes at a time. It's simply not designed for that. It's probably not technically difficult to do but it's not just pulling components off the shelf either. Engineering takes time and money and the ROI is difficult because it's a relatively low volume product.

 

If you can't understand such a simple concept then I can't help you.

[fordmantpw]

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Common_sense

 

:hysterical:

[rmc523]

Here are the two images from the story btw.

 

 

Those images look slightly Mustangish.

 

I agree, at least on the corner/quarter panel that's the first thing I thought (that it looked Mustang-ish):

 

 

thank god they went back to regular black, not a fan of the Tuxedo Black....

 

You can have the new MKZ in any color, as long as its black.

[Hugh]

Looks good, can't wait.

[RichardJensen]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_sense

 

POTW.

[BORG]

Link?

 

Personally, I think Lincoln would print money if they developed/implemented a AWD system that can be turned into a RWD system at the push of a button. Snowy out? Leave the MKS in AWD that acts exactly as the current one. Roads dry and you want to have some spirited driving? Push a button and you now have a RWD car/wagon/SUV/etc. Great selling feature, the publicity it would bring to Lincoln would be massive, it would be an industry first (AFAIK), and you can bet other automakers (prestigious marques) would follow.

 

And considering the system now can handle 100% splits in power, it probably wouldn't be as hard as you think.

 

The benefits of RWD are entirely lost in this scenario. You still have a Front-Driver that makes much better use of it's power (and chassis design) through AWD to begin with. RWD isn't something you can just turn on electronically an then viola! You've changed the law of physics and given us a Bimmer.

[akirby]

The benefits of RWD are entirely lost in this scenario. You still have a Front-Driver that makes much better use of it's power (and chassis design) through AWD to begin with. RWD isn't something you can just turn on electronically an then viola! You've changed the law of physics and given us a Bimmer.

 

There are 2 significant benefits to traditional RWD vehicles. Bigger, beefier transmissions that can handle more power and better weight distribution due to the longitudinal drivetrain.

 

Audi straddles this with a longitudinal FWD setup but they still have to push the engine forward much more than a regular RWD.

 

The answer is not "switch it to RWD" - the answer is to use AWD to distribute torque more evenly and provide better performance than FWD or RWD alone.

[jpd80]

The benefits of RWD are entirely lost in this scenario. You still have a Front-Driver that makes much better use of it's power (and chassis design) through AWD to begin with. RWD isn't something you can just turn on electronically an then viola! You've changed the law of physics and given us a Bimmer.

We've been through this before but the MKR has the same length, width, wheelbase and tread width as E8 Falcon.

If ever a car deserved a Lincoln top hat and Territory's AWD set up, it's the Aussie Falcon, so much potential, so little funding.

Edited December 8, 2011 by jpd80

[RichardJensen]

Audi straddles this with a longitudinal FWD setup but they still have to push the engine forward much more than a regular RWD.

Exactly. Even if Ford made a fulltime AWD box that was 90% RWD by default, you'd still have the a car that 'pushed' through corners due to the forward weight distribution of the powerpack.

[Boss444]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_sense

 

What a well thought out rebuttal. How could anyone argue with that sort of well documented, amazingly detailed argument?

 

Seriously...are you 12? It's extremely ignorant to say that something won't work when you don't have ANY idea what the system can handle or any knowledge of the engineering that went into the current units. You should 'stop making absolute statements about what Ford should or shouldn't do and just say "I would have preferred" or "I like this"', etc. You don't know the fine details of the system any more than I do...so get off your high horse and stop belittling people because they had an idea that you didn't like. Is that how this site is operated? People who want to see Lincoln succeed and offer suggestions for features are attacked and belittled because some arrogant poster doesn't like their idea?

 

 

The system now cannot handle 100% torque to the rear for more than a few seconds/minutes at a time. It's simply not designed for that. It's probably not technically difficult to do but it's not just pulling components off the shelf either. Engineering takes time and money and the ROI is difficult because it's a relatively low volume product.

 

If you can't understand such a simple concept then I can't help you.

 

Then why offer Lincoln Drive Control?

Why offer CCD?

Why offer BLIS?

Why offer adaptive cruise control

Why offer 6-speed transmissions?

Why offer AWD?

Why offer power windows?

Why offer power locks?

Why offer Air bags?

Why offer ANYTHING?

 

After all...engineering takes time and money and the ROI is difficult because it's a relatively low volume product (except that I said it could be offered on the MKZ, MKT, MKS, MKX, etc).

 

I don't know if it would work at all...but to take a shit on someone's idea because you don't like it is arrogant and rude.

[RichardJensen]

If you wanted to go with a fulltime AWD setup that is, say 90% biased to the rear, you would need to buy an AWD box from a company like Haldex. (The Jaguar X-Type is the best example I can think of, it was fulltime AWD with RWD bias).

 

However, you'd still have a nose heavy vehicle, because it would still have most of the transaxle and almost all of the engine ahead of the axle centerline.

 

Bottom line:

 

It would be cheaper to buy an off-the-shelf fulltime AWD system from a vendor like Haldex, as you couldn't change Ford's iAWD system without essentially starting from scratch, but in the end, handling would be worse than most other RWD vehicles because your weight distribution is still iffy.

 

So, the bottom bottom line:

 

You'd spend a tidy sum and would still have a vehicle with questionable performance.

[jpd80]

Exactly. Even if Ford made a fulltime AWD box that was 90% RWD by default, you'd still have the a car that 'pushed' through corners due to the forward weight distribution of the powerpack.

And then again, the Falcon's engine bay is big enough to accept a FWD V6 as well as Longitudinal I-6 and V8.

By clever relocation of the engine bay equipment to the rear of the engine, A transversely mounted V6 would fit a treat.

nose to tail the I-6 is close to 32" long and is balanced equally over the front wheels, so there's a good 16" of room

forward of the front axle before radiator, Intercooler and A/c evaporator. At the back there is plenty of room to reposition

battery, fuse boxes, fluid reservoirs and any other engine bay equipment...

Edited December 9, 2011 by jpd80

[stpatrick90]

Link?

 

Personally, I think Lincoln would print money if they developed/implemented a AWD system that can be turned into a RWD system at the push of a button. Snowy out? Leave the MKS in AWD that acts exactly as the current one. Roads dry and you want to have some spirited driving? Push a button and you now have a RWD car/wagon/SUV/etc. Great selling feature, the publicity it would bring to Lincoln would be massive, it would be an industry first (AFAIK), and you can bet other automakers (prestigious marques) would follow.

 

And considering the system now can handle 100% splits in power, it probably wouldn't be as hard as you think.

 

Personally this seems like more work than a benefit. If anything it would be nice to have the car operate as normal when it was turned on and if sportier driving was wanted you could engage a sport mode which would alter the suspension, transmission, ESC/TC/ABS thresholds, and the AWD system (more rear-biased). I believe the new Lincoln drive control does most of this already when switched into sport, there are however no alterations to the AWD or ABS thresholds in sport mode at this point. However to even allow for the AWD system to operate in an alternative mode would mean further engineering work would need to be done which while possible would probably add to further weight, worse fuel economy and much greater cost to purchase.

There however is no gain in making a car that is predominately FWD to run as a RWD car. By making a FWD chassis run RWD you don't magically make it handle like a Mustang or insert another RWD car. What you would end up with by allowing a FWD based car to run RWD would be miles of understeer because of the noise heavy weight distribution that is inherent with FWD chassis. Also if I remember correctly the Charger and 300 AWD cars have the ability to run RWD only so the idea isn't as novel as first thought, however I do admit that it isn't the exact same as this example.

Edited December 10, 2011 by stpatrick90

[akirby]

People who want to see Lincoln succeed and offer suggestions for features are attacked and belittled because some arrogant poster doesn't like their idea?

 

I don't know if it would work at all...but to take a shit on someone's idea because you don't like it is arrogant and rude.

 

Oh stop it - nobody's attacking you. You said it was easy to do and I was trying to explain why it wasn't as easy as you might think because the system isn't designed to transfer large amounts of torque to the rear wheels for long periods of time. If this isn't evident from the small size of the components compared to a tradtional RWD setup, then the failure of the AWD system on the Explorer that popular mechanics tested should be confirmation.

 

I actually like the idea but it's just not practical for all the reasons mentioned above.

[Boss444]

Oh stop it - nobody's attacking you. You said it was easy to do and I was trying to explain why it wasn't as easy as you might think because the system isn't designed to transfer large amounts of torque to the rear wheels for long periods of time. If this isn't evident from the small size of the components compared to a traditional RWD setup, then the failure of the AWD system on the Explorer that popular mechanics tested should be confirmation.

 

I actually like the idea but it's just not practical for all the reasons mentioned above.

 

The test everybody here dismissed as not 'accurate' or 'real life'?

 

I never said you would be able to do it with the current components "as is". I fully admitted there would be *some* engineering involved.

 

For Christ's sake...Ferrari just came out with a crank mounted front differential (because they say that the balance of the car would be thrown off has they used a traditional one) that engages in the blink of an eye and functions up to 120 MPH. Couple that achievement (as an example of where the industry is at) and all of the technology Lincoln is introducing, what I'm proposing wouldn't be that expensive nor time consuming. I would put money on it. It certainly would deserve a mule to test it out. If it sucks...either make it work (if feasible) or scrap it and return to the dull setup they have now.

 

I'm not asking Ford to reinvent the wheel...it was just a suggestion as to how to make Lincoln a brand worth talking about rather than laughing about. It would bring some much needed life into the brand and a lot of positive press.

[akirby]

what I'm proposing wouldn't be that expensive nor time consuming. I would put money on it.

 

As a good friend of mine recently said......

 

 

Ok.

[RichardJensen]

Ferrari just came out with a