Why I Believe in Lincoln

[03 LS]

Don't forget theres's no PAG anymore either.

Yep, NO PAG is the KEY. Ford spent far more money on reviving (rescueing) those brands than they ever spent on Lincoln.

We all know Lincoln will always be second banana to Ford, but for many years, Lincoln was the 3rd, 4th banana to many 2nd bananas after Ford. It was truely an afterthought. Not any more.

So I do believe this time is for real.

 

On the other hand, I blame Lincoln (Ford) Marketing for running their mouth too soon.

Can we please remember that we are still only about a year out from the original announcement of the Lincoln revitalization plan? It is simply impossible for an entirely new lineup of vehicles to magically sprout from the ground in that amount of time. No other automaker has ever done it. Lincoln won't either.

A year and half. By the time the new MKZ is on the market, it would be about 2 years after initial talk about Lincoln's new "7 new" vehicle, new showroom experience revival plan.

 

In these 2 years, what happened? Lincoln did a lot of things,

1. Lincoln gutted about half of its dealership

2. Lincoln introduced (would have introduced) 3 MCE models, MKX, MKS, MKT (plus a MKZ Hybrid)

3. Lincoln killed off 1 ancient model, TC

4. Lincoln upgraded key dealers' facilities

Through all these, Lincoln's market share and relevance kept sliding down the tube. Sure we know all these are part of Lincoln's plan, the only thing I'm not sure is how many of those 3 MCE counted as the "7". I sure hope it's "none", because none of them is working.

 

IMHO, it's one of the three things,

1) they ran their mouth too soon, talking about bright future 2 years before the savior (MKZ) will show up,

2) the implementation was slower than expected

3) the plan wasn't working (partially), meaning they counted on the 3 MCE to stop the bleeding.

 

For Lincoln's sake, I'd rather believe it's 1), the plan actually takes that long, they just spoke too soon.

[akirby]

Yep, NO PAG is the KEY. Ford spent far more money on reviving (rescueing) those brands than they ever spent on Lincoln.

We all know Lincoln will always be second banana to Ford, but for many years, Lincoln was the 3rd, 4th banana to many 2nd bananas after Ford. It was truely an afterthought. Not any more.

So I do believe this time is for real.

 

On the other hand, I blame Lincoln (Ford) Marketing for running their mouth too soon.

 

A year and half. By the time the new MKZ is on the market, it would be about 2 years after initial talk about Lincoln's new "7 new" vehicle, new showroom experience revival plan.

 

In these 2 years, what happened? Lincoln did a lot of things,

1. Lincoln gutted about half of its dealership

2. Lincoln introduced (would have introduced) 3 MCE models, MKX, MKS, MKT (plus a MKZ Hybrid)

3. Lincoln killed off 1 ancient model, TC

4. Lincoln upgraded key dealers' facilities

Through all these, Lincoln's market share and relevance kept sliding down the tube. Sure we know all these are part of Lincoln's plan, the only thing I'm not sure is how many of those 3 MCE counted as the "7". I sure hope it's "none", because none of them is working.

 

IMHO, it's one of the three things,

1) they ran their mouth too soon, talking about bright future 2 years before the savior (MKZ) will show up,

2) the implementation was slower than expected

3) the plan wasn't working (partially), meaning they counted on the 3 MCE to stop the bleeding.

 

For Lincoln's sake, I'd rather believe it's 1), the plan actually takes that long, they just spoke too soon.

 

What I think happened is that once Wolff and the Lincoln team started putting their plan together they realized that more extensive changes were needed than originally planned and that pushed out the timeline.

 

In the meantime Ford could certainly boost Lincoln sales by reducing prices and/or increasing incentives but what purpose would that really serve? Ford is in good shape financially so there's no problem subsidizing Lincoln for the next few years. And by not discounting the current products it serves 2 purposes - it helps weed out more marginal dealers and it makes it easier to charge full price for the new vehicles as they arrive.

 

But again I'll ask - what's the rush? What difference does it make if a particular model arrives in 2012 or 2013 or 2014?

[jpd80]

Through all these, Lincoln's market share and relevance kept sliding down the tube. Sure we know all these are part of Lincoln's plan, the only thing I'm not sure is how many of those 3 MCE counted as the "7". I sure hope it's "none", because none of them is working.

 

Lincoln sales appear to be stabilizing somewhat even though all the heavy lifting is being done by MKZ and MKX.

 

2009 82,847

2010 85,828

2011 85,643

 

IMO, Lincoln needs a "Mariner" and an "Aviator" and a refreshed Navigator in there ASAP,

Ford does great SUVs and it about time they filtered through to Lincoln,

 

I don't get MKT as a TC replacement, surely a LWB MKS that's unashamedly a luxury barge is the way to go.

Put a proper Trunk on the MKT and watch the change in attitude...and this is why Lincoln needs it own studio.

Ford is clueless about running luxury brands, they don't understand them and really don't want to either but,

, they need to start trusting some talented people at Lincoln and let them work independently and see what happens..

 

With Ford pressing higher with the likes of Titanium trim level, Lincoln needs to be separate otherwise there will be

conflict of interest over how much should remain common for cost savings versus the price of individuality and distinctiveness.

Edited February 10, 2012 by jpd80

[Edstock]

I don't get MKT as a TC replacement, surely a LWB MKS that's unashamedly a luxury barge is the way to go.

Livery. Doing a stretch MKT is easier than to try stretching the curves in the MKS. I would expect to see an "L" MKS, with a 4-6" longer wheelbase, which might see "black car" usage, but from the standpoint of building a 60-120" stretch, the MKT is the way to go, IMHO.

 

 

 

 

 

[jpd80]

Livery. Doing a stretch MKT is easier than to try stretching the curves in the MKS. I would expect to see an "L" MKS, with a 4-6" longer wheelbase, which might see "black car" usage, but from the standpoint of building a 60-120" stretch, the MKT is the way to go, IMHO.

 

It gets back to who buys Lincoln and why., if Lincoln wanted it's flagship to remain solely livery sales, then i would agree.

I'm sensing a quiet revolution within Ford as though Lincoln is seeking a bit more independence, that sounds good to me.

 

Perhaps, the answer is something in between, MKT for liveries and MKT with a genuine trunk for private buyers (I'm only guessing)

Edited February 10, 2012 by jpd80

[2b2]

...It is simply impossible for an entirely new lineup of vehicles to magically sprout from the ground in that amount of time. No other automaker has ever done it. Lincoln won't either.

imho

not "impossible" if the base-versions are already in production under the mainstream brand

just maybe difficult from a bookkeeping perspective?

 

What I think happened is that once Wolff and the Lincoln team started putting their plan together they realized that more extensive changes were needed than originally planned and that pushed out the timeline...

I'm hoping it wasn't from underestimating the amount of reconstructive surgery needed

AND that the main reason for the "delay" (that's how I see this) is

waiting for the NANO v6 (which imho belongs in EVERY Lincoln - at least in EB form!)

 

otherwise:

I'd rather have a year to year updating and new product then shove everything out the door at one...keeps the interest up in the brand.

 

Look at it like this:

 

MKZ This Fall

MK Escape next Spring

MK Explorer next Fall

New MKS Spring 2014

this^ kind of neat-&-tidy scehdule just seems too artificial to me

Esp when not necessary (imho) cuz the base versions are already in production

 

...But again I'll ask - what's the rush? What difference does it make if a particular model arrives in 2012 or 2013 or 2014?

time...tide...and ga$/CAFE?

imho those Brands grasping for Lux status now, while they can still play the "v8 card", have an easier time bending perception than they would if they waited for $5+ gas

but beyond that, or instead of that,

imho some other horrible business climate could develop...

...I've wondered if Fomoco knows-or-believes something 'dire' is in the works already

and therefor there's no reason to really take Lincoln towards the current Lux market, since it won't exist much longer

Edited February 10, 2012 by 2b2

[jpd80]

With Lincoln wanting more styling independence, i think it's going to be more complicated developing new Lincolns

at the same times as Ford products, especially if Doors and side frames/glass house is going to change...

[fou_bleu]

With Lincoln wanting more styling independence, i think it's going to be more complicated developing new Lincolns

at the same times as Ford products, especially if Doors and side frames/glass house is going to change...

 

Hence I might sound like a hypocrite when I say:

 

Determining the optimum model range would need to happen before Lincoln build even plan their own platform (regardless of Ford/Lincoln GRWD or the Lincoln platform's architecture), which can only happen once the current models are selling and making money anyway (obviously).

 

To me, this is entirely do-able in the mid- to long-term:

 

"Iosis" - C-Max based small MPV - 2.0 EB and Energi/Lincoln 'variant'

 

"Vertrek" - Escape based small SUV - 2.0 EB and Energi/Lincoln 'variant'

 

"Evos" - Fusion based midsize sedan - 2.0 EB, 2.7 V6 and Energi/Lincoln 'variant'

 

"Continental" - Lincoln exclusive RWD platform Fairlane-sized (ie: ~ A8/7-Series/S-Class size) sedan - 2.7 V6 EB, 3.5 V6 EB, 5.0 V8

 

"MKR" - 2 door version of the above sedan OR CLS-esque coupe version of the MKS - something extra stylish and a bit risky - 2.7 V6 EB, 3.5 V6 EB, 5.0 V8

 

"Aviator" - Explorer size SUV built on the Lincoln platform with a similar off-road system to the current model - 2.7 V6 EB, 3.5 V6 EB

 

"Navigator" - Full exterior and interior redesign with new engines, transmissions on the all-new F-Series architecture - 3.5 V6 EB, 5.0 V8

 

Underline denotes TOTALLY do-able, in fact probably dumb not to!

Italics denote a more out there, only-do-able-by-making-the-rest-work, kind of approach - may also contain stuff from my dreams! :P

 

As for some of the names I chose, why let those awesome Ford concept names go to waste? Only us armchair experts and car nerds will know their origins and even then I don't have a problem with their use on Lincoln's...

Edited February 11, 2012 by Aussie_Ford

[Edstock]

It gets back to who buys Lincoln and why., if Lincoln wanted it's flagship to remain solely livery sales, then i would agree.

I do not consider the MKT to be a "flagship". It's a large luxo-boat, but certainly no flagship. Maybe Lincoln will make what could be considered a flagship, I hope they do, that 5.0 is too good not to use. The Lincoln version could have direct injection, even.

 

Anyway, IMHO the use of the MKT for livery will have little negative effect on its retail sales, because there aren't that many retail sales. It might even be hard to tell.

 

 

But I see much of the black fleet biz going to the 300, because a black RWD V-6 300 will do the job and cost a lot less than an MKT or an MKS or an MKZ — and that's fine with me.

 

 

[akirby]

After thinking about the MKZ that Wolff found when he arrived, I'm beginning to believe that the planned powertrains were also Ford carryovers. If Wolff demanded new sheetmetal and features then I would also imagine he demanded a new Lincoln only powertrain from day one. So maybe they are waiting for the 2.7EB or 3.5EB for the MKZ platform.

 

It seems obvious they're not going to rush it out the door.

[2b2]

^ the 2.7v6 was first mentioned years before Mr. Wolff immigrated

 

(edit/OH!

now that Mr. Kuzak is retiring, does his promise of a unique engine for Lincoln expire?)

 

 

...As for some of the names I chose, why let those awesome Ford concept names go to waste? Only us armchair experts and car nerds will know their origins and even then I don't have a problem with their use on Lincoln's...

selective use of concepts' names is brilliant, Aussie Ford!!!

Edited February 11, 2012 by 2b2

[fou_bleu]

^^^ Thanks 2b2!

 

My thinking is that by having new, never before used names for all the cars in the line-up, the general public's perception of the newness of and separation from the previous products would be greater - its not as if the 'MK' series doesn't really leave any fond memories to most customers - except for "MKR" - those three letters go quite well together IMO, so I left it! :P

 

I did get stuck on the Conti, Aviator and Navi for new, hip names, though, so any suggestions would be good!

Edited February 11, 2012 by Aussie_Ford

[hbalek]

After thinking about the MKZ that Wolff found when he arrived, I'm beginning to believe that the planned powertrains were also Ford carryovers. If Wolff demanded new sheetmetal and features then I would also imagine he demanded a new Lincoln only powertrain from day one. So maybe they are waiting for the 2.7EB or 3.5EB for the MKZ platform.

 

It seems obvious they're not going to rush it out the door.

 

 

I'll bet this is what he found before he redesigned the MKZ.

[jpd80]

^ the 2.7v6 was first mentioned years before Mr. Wolff immigrated

 

(edit/OH!

now that Mr. Kuzak is retiring, does his promise of a unique engine for Lincoln expire?)

IIRC, Barb Z mentioned the 2.7 V6 but in the context of a decision between it and the EB I-4. Perhaps that was before FNA

engineers had completed review of the EB I-4's 20% economy improvement claim, the 2.7 could have been a long term plan that

predated Ecoboost I-4 championed by Kuzak...

 

 

selective use of concepts' names is brilliant, Aussie Ford!!!

A move away from impersonal MK to more distinctive names may recapture that Lincoln feel....

[2b2]

...except for "MKR" - those three letters go quite well together IMO, so I left it! :P

I did get stuck on the Conti, Aviator and Navi for new, hip names, though, so any suggestions would be good!

I've thought for some time that if there were a pair of cars for the Continental-class, sedan and CLS-ish ""4 door coupe"" then

the other one might be called Constellation...

&

liking the idea of replacing the MkExplorer+MKT+Navigator

with a regular and extended GRwdP-based ALL-new exclusive Aviator & ALL-new exclusive Navigator

both with 3-row seating but the Navigator would offer true adult comfort in the 3rd row

so

then there'd be 4 vehicles sharing the GRwd Platform

 

Whacha think, Aussie Ford?

 

 

IIRC, Barb Z mentioned the 2.7 V6 but in the context of a decision between it and the EB I-4. Perhaps that was before FNA

engineers had completed review of the EB I-4's 20% economy improvement claim, the 2.7 could have been a long term plan that

predated Ecoboost I-4 championed by Kuzak...

imho the original 2.7v6 mention:

http://wardsauto.com/ar/ford_exceed_fuel_081031/index.html

was questioning if the v6 was needed...

WHICH-imho pre-dates any thoughts of making Lincoln truly exclusive

[2b2]

otoh

 

the Fusion article Aussie Ford posted raised the question of the MKZ's "what & when"

&

even tho I strongly support Rwd models ASAP,

I'm not saying for calendar year 2012,

WHICH I consider pretty much a ho-hum write-off :facepalm:

 

it just doesn't seem like Lincoln (ie Fomoco) is trying to build any momentum

[fou_bleu]

I've thought for some time that if there were a pair of cars for the Continental-class, sedan and CLS-ish ""4 door coupe"" then

the other one might be called Constellation...

Firstly, I think that the 'other large RWD car' should actually be a LWB 4-/5-seat coupe (read: CL-Class).

 

Secondly, Continental and Constellation are great names, but they don't go well with the new, more youthful image I think Lincoln could go for - 5 years ago I would have said hell yeah!, but for this new Lincoln I think shorter, more contemporary names (preferably ones not in the dictionary, ie: Iosis, Vertrek, Evos) would suit the reinvented brand better. Do you agree?

 

liking the idea of replacing the MkExplorer+MKT+Navigator

with a regular and extended GRwdP-based ALL-new exclusive Aviator & ALL-new exclusive Navigator

both with 3-row seating but the Navigator would offer true adult comfort in the 3rd row

so

then there'd be 4 vehicles sharing the GRwd Platform

 

Whacha think, Aussie Ford?

If you mean like make a SWB and a LWB version of this new MKExplorer platform, then yes that sounds good. A stand alone F-150 based Navigator just isn't worth it IMO - it's an already small market that's still shrinking and therefore wouldn't be worth the investment in an all-new model IMO.

 

otoh

 

the Fusion article Aussie Ford posted raised the question of the MKZ's "what & when"

&

even tho I strongly support Rwd models ASAP,

I'm not saying for calendar year 2012,

WHICH I consider pretty much a ho-hum write-off :facepalm:

 

it just doesn't seem like Lincoln (ie Fomoco) is trying to build any momentum

I'll have to disagree with that one. Rather than rushing into putting the MKZ & MKEscape on the market, their taking their time to make sure the cars are done right first time, rather than talk up their new models (which they have done) and become the laughing stock when the press get a hold of them and they're no better than their Ford equivalent.

[2b2]

...Continental and Constellation are great names, but they don't go well with the new, more youthful image I think Lincoln could go for - 5 years ago I would have said hell yeah!, but for this new Lincoln I think shorter, more contemporary names (preferably ones not in the dictionary, ie: Iosis, Vertrek, Evos) would suit the reinvented brand better. Do you agree?

I'm thinking the GRwdP vehicles would be pricier than the current F-Awds

kind of a 2-tier lineup

so the F-Awd having contemporary names & youthful image are great

but

serious names are better imho for the serious-money vehicles ($60-99k)

 

 

...If you mean like make a SWB and a LWB version of this new MKExplorer platform, then yes that sounds good. A stand alone F-150 based Navigator just isn't worth it IMO - it's an already small market that's still shrinking and therefore wouldn't be worth the investment in an all-new model IMO.

thinking that Lincoln versions of Ford vehicles, that COULD instead be built off the GRwdP,

won't add any real volume to the Fords which already have plenty of volume (ie Explorer & F-series/Expedition)

but could ADD UP to making GRwdP profitable

as well as making Lincoln exclusive for med.lg/xlg Suvs too

 

 

...I'll have to disagree with that one. Rather than rushing into putting the MKZ & MKEscape on the market, their taking their time to make sure the cars are done right first time, rather than talk up their new models (which they have done) and become the laughing stock when the press get a hold of them and they're no better than their Ford equivalent.

might just be low blood sugar today - guess I just don't believe Fomoco is moving fast enough NOR developing a rhythm with Lincoln

AND

that they could ... MKuGa, MKexplorer, LWB MKS

 

If some of their plans are waiting for the Nano v6,

then I wonder just how long they put off getting serious about Lincoln

[fou_bleu]

I see what you mean with the large cars and I can somewhat agree, so good thinking there!

 

As for GRWD, unless Lincoln is planning on coming to Australia and Europe, I'd like to think that Ford could have a RWD sedan model to appease the enthusiasts around the world - sometimes you have to make a car the people want...

 

In regards to the momentum of Lincoln, I wasn't expecting more than the MKZ and at least a MKEscape Concept... Am I being too conservative?

[2b2]

Imho it would support Lincoln (and be cheaper*) if the Rwds were exclusive "Starships"

AND*

Fomoco just sent a check to every poster who ranted for a blue oval Rwd (one buck per post) so they could afford a Lincoln

:shades:

 

re: momentum

I'm thinking of what in the dealership for sale this year

VS all the hype (only partly web-based)

with the Jan. concept ..... ..... Apr. production version ..... .....

..... ..... ..... ..... Nov. finally on sale

and wondering if in 2013 will floodgates suddenly open?

[FordBuyer]

I see what you mean with the large cars and I can somewhat agree, so good thinking there!

 

As for GRWD, unless Lincoln is planning on coming to Australia and Europe, I'd like to think that Ford could have a RWD sedan model to appease the enthusiasts around the world - sometimes you have to make a car the people want...

 

In regards to the momentum of Lincoln, I wasn't expecting more than the MKZ and at least a MKEscape Concept... Am I being too conservative?

 

I personally expect to see the production version of the MY2014 MKE at the L.A. Auto show this Fall or the NAIAS in 2013. Then Lincoln will be fully engaged to start competing with Cadillac. I expect MKZ and MKE alone to sell as well as Lincoln does now in total. I really don't think Lincoln will have much trouble selling at 150,000/year level with its so far $1 billion total investment. Now if it wants to move into Lexus sales territory, it will need a vehicle or two beyond MKE and MKA and probably RWD, but not necessarily. I would suspect that Ford wants to go beyond 150,000 sales/year eventually and take Lincoln to elite sales level later this decade. Without PAG as distraction and full commitment with eventual more development money put into Lincoln pot, it's certainly possible and not surprising to me. Ford has certainly proven over the decades that it can come back from the dead time after time. I see Ford committed to Ford and Lincoln brand only through to the end of this decade. After that, who knows.

[NickF1011]

imho

not "impossible" if the base-versions are already in production under the mainstream brand

just maybe difficult from a bookkeeping perspective?

 

Unless they are willing to cannibalize resources from Ford-brand programs, then yes, I would still say impossible.

 

Given the development process on even the Ford-brand vehicles upon which the Lincolns will be based, the timetables simply don't line up to allow for a one-year rebirth.

 

2012:

MKZ launches same year as new Fusion

MKS launches same year as refreshed Taurus

MKT launches same year as refreshed Flex

 

2013:

Small Lincoln ute launches shortly after new Escape

 

2014 (hopefully):

Lincoln larger ute launches based on refreshed Explorer

Navigator launches based on refreshed/new Expedition

Lincoln coupe launches based on Mustang

 

Throw in a few other possibilities. It only really makes sense to work on the Lincoln versions of these vehicles when the deeper engineering is simultaneously being done on the Ford versions.