akirby Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Eh. At this point it doesn't seem very likely that the Mustang's next platform will spawn a whole lot of other vehicles except maybe a low volume Lincoln or two. Oh ye of little faith. I could be wrong but I think they have bigger plans for the new platform including several vehicles (some Ford, some Lincoln). Or maybe that's just wishful thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 I don't think this is going to be a platform, for reasons I've detailed before. The specs required for the constituent vehicles are too diverse. You may have the front suspension/subframe/firewall/powerpack/doghouse shared, but I can't conceive of significant sharing in crash mitigation structures, floorpans, rear suspensions, etc., unless you're sharing between Ford & Lincoln sedans. I don't expect a Lincoln coupe, and I don't expect significant sharing from the firewall back between the sedan and coupe, or deriving the coupe from the sedan (cf. Camaro & Challenger). And, like Nick, I think some are wildly overstating global demand for the Mustang. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Oh ye of little faith. I could be wrong but I think they have bigger plans for the new platform including several vehicles (some Ford, some Lincoln). Or maybe that's just wishful thinking. Somehow I don't believe the Thunderbird nameplate has been eternally buried, I would like to think it would be RWD and affordably priced. If Chrysler RWD models continue to sell well along with GM's ATS and CTS, Ford may change philosophy and try to change its image of being mostly a FWD company only as in RWD fans go eat dirt. Good way to enter niche markets that are more upmarket and more profitable if you can do other vehicles off same RWD platform and at least keep your market share if not increase it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 (edited) If Chrysler RWD models continue to sell But Ford's large FWD's are selling about as well as those already. What's the incentive to change? Good way to enter niche markets that are more upmarket and more profitable if you can do other vehicles off same RWD platform I'd venture to guess that ATP and profit margin on the MKS is higher than it is on the 300. Edited May 9, 2012 by NickF1011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 But Ford's large FWD's are selling about as well as those already. What's the incentive to change? I'd venture to guess that ATP and profit margin on the MKS is higher than it is on the 300. I wouldn't bet on that considering the 300 outsells the MKS 6 to 1 and in some ways is more luxurious in that you can get powerful V8, something a flagship luxury vehicle should offer as an option. Yeah, EB V6 is fine and dandy, but still would take a V8 in that class just like I would take a 5.0 Mustang over a EB one. With the new Dart coming on line, Chrysler all of a sudden looks very competitive and puts Ford and GM on notice. You just know Dart sales are going to come out of someone's hide. And you can order the turbocharged version without buying SRT model. All I'm saying is that Ford is going to have to up its game even more to keep its head above water going forward. I doubt if a Chrysler mid sized replacement is far away, and you can bet it will be competitive fuel mileage and option wise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 I wouldn't bet on that considering the 300 outsells the MKS 6 to 1 and in some ways is more luxurious in that you can get powerful V8, something a flagship luxury vehicle should offer as an option. Yeah, EB V6 is fine and dandy, but still would take a V8 in that class just like I would take a 5.0 Mustang over a EB one. With the new Dart coming on line, Chrysler all of a sudden looks very competitive and puts Ford and GM on notice. You just know Dart sales are going to come out of someone's hide. Lets see: 2011 Sales 36K 300 70K Charger 40K Challenger Total= 146K units Ford D platform sales 70K Taurus 135K Explorer 27K Flex 12K MKS 5K MKT Total: 249K units.... As for the Dart...seems like its decent, but lets see how the buying public takes to it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Lets see: 2011 Sales 36K 300 70K Charger 40K Challenger Total= 146K units Ford D platform sales 70K Taurus 135K Explorer 27K Flex 12K MKS 5K MKT Total: 249K units.... As for the Dart...seems like its decent, but lets see how the buying public takes to it.... Wow. 300 is only outselling MKS 3-to-1? Even I figured it would be more than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Since when does a huge pushrod v8 equal luxury? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Since when does a huge pushrod v8 equal luxury? Since...... your mom. Sure, another explanation will be proffered, but it won't make any more sense than this one. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92merc Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Since...... your mom. Sure, another explanation will be proffered, but it won't make any more sense than this one. That's kind of what I was thinking. The days of "needing" a V8 are drawing to a close. The only place that is still applicable is in the performance car area. And even that is going downhill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Wow. 300 is only outselling MKS 3-to-1? Even I figured it would be more than that. I believe Chrysler's overall sales through April are up about 35% over 2011 and 300 is up more than that. In April alone, the 300 sells as well as the Taurus which was in 6,000 range to MKS at 1,300 or so. I suspect the 300 sales range through April will hold up pretty well for 2012. In fact, the 300 now sells about as well as the Charger without all the cop sales. The 300 and Charger offer a nice one, two punch. Now Chrysler just needs a competitive mid sizer. Not a fan of the 200 and Dodge version of same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 That's kind of what I was thinking. The days of "needing" a V8 are drawing to a close. The only place that is still applicable is in the performance car area. And even that is going downhill. So you think that still holds true in the sport coupe segment, or only the luxury segmen?. I wonder how many luxury brands offer V8 option in their flagship whether it is high performance sport model or not. Who is going to be first in not offering V8 in sport coupe segment, Ford, GM, or Chrysler? The verdict is still out on Ford not offering V6 anymore on its cars other than Stang and Taurus. I guess I will have to drive an EB 4 banger and see if it's overall as smooth as a V6. It will be interesting to see if Camry, Accord, and Altima keep V6's for next 10 years or so and see how that plays out in comparison. I personally still equate 4 bangers with my youth and buzzing rear view mirrors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Since when does a huge pushrod v8 equal luxury? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Those aren't powered by pushrods, and every luxury mfr. offering a V8 sedan has about a $60k buy-in, which puts them in pretty much a whole other ball park as compared to the Chrysler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Those aren't powered by pushrods, and every luxury mfr. offering a V8 sedan has about a $60k buy-in, which puts them in pretty much a whole other ball park as compared to the Chrysler. Those were the Mulsanne, Brooklands, Azure, and Arnage. Each and every one is/was powered by Bentley's 6.75L OHV V8 (save for two years when BMW owned Bentley). Only Bentley's Continental line currently uses any sort of DOHC engine. Anyway, akirby asked "since when did pushrod V8s equal luxury?" Bentley would say something like "oh, since the 1950s." Chrysler's not quite sure what it wants to be in the present day and age. Looks like they want to move up, looks like they don't want to leave Dodge in the cold all alone. Kinda like a blend of Mercury and Lincoln. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Those were the Mulsanne, Brooklands, Azure, and Arnage. Each and every one is/was powered by Bentley's 6.75L OHV V8 (save for two years when BMW owned Bentley). Only Bentley's Continental line currently uses any sort of DOHC engine. Anyway, akirby asked "since when did pushrod V8s equal luxury?" Bentley would say something like "oh, since the 1950s." Chrysler's not quite sure what it wants to be in the present day and age. Looks like they want to move up, looks like they don't want to leave Dodge in the cold all alone. Kinda like a blend of Mercury and Lincoln. Biggest difference to me between Ford and Chrysler not withstanding the bailout and profit margin is that Ford pretty much knows what it wants to be and Chrysler is still a work in progress and still seems befuddled. Chrysler probably needs to be turned into a true luxury brand with Dodge being the more affordable brand. The lines are still too blurry. The 300 to my mind is 75% there already. Keep the mini van for Dodge and turn the Town and Country into a luxury crossover. Add in a few more vehicles to round out the lineup. Sell the hell out of Dodge and Jeep and move Chrysler into true luxury brand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Those were the Mulsanne, Brooklands, Azure, and Arnage. Each and every one is/was powered by Bentley's 6.75L OHV V8 (save for two years when BMW owned Bentley). Only Bentley's Continental line currently uses any sort of DOHC engine. Anyway, akirby asked "since when did pushrod V8s equal luxury?" Bentley would say something like "oh, since the 1950s." Chrysler's not quite sure what it wants to be in the present day and age. Looks like they want to move up, looks like they don't want to leave Dodge in the cold all alone. Kinda like a blend of Mercury and Lincoln. That's an OHV engine? Really? Never knew that. Pointlessly expensive luxury vehicles aside, the point remains valid: A pushrod V8 does not turn a vehicle into a luxury product. And, BTW, Bentley and Rolls Royce are pretty much proof that the real problem with Jaguar is that they weren't expensive enough. You get up in the $300k price range, and you can get people to buy just about anything, regardless of how ugly its combination of traditional and modern styling. Provided it's got the right name on the hood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 That's an OHV engine? Really? Never knew that. Pointlessly expensive luxury vehicles aside, the point remains valid: A pushrod V8 does not turn a vehicle into a luxury product. And, BTW, Bentley and Rolls Royce are pretty much proof that the real problem with Jaguar is that they weren't expensive enough. You get up in the $300k price range, and you can get people to buy just about anything, regardless of how ugly its combination of traditional and modern styling. Provided it's got the right name on the hood. I looked at it a different way. I've spoken to Europeans who have said that those on that side of the pond view pushrods as "truck engines" that have no place in a luxury automobile. I see your point with Bentley and RR... and counter it with Maybach. :poke: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 counter it with Maybach. :poke: Wrong name :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Wrong name :D D'oh, I missed that line. You win this round, Jensen. :surrender: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 That's an OHV engine? Really? Never knew that. IIRC, the transmission was from GM initially. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 You win this round, Jensen. :surrender: Oh please. I had no idea that those Bentleys tooled around with gigantic OHV engines under their 'bonnets'. At the very least it's 1-1, if not 1-0 in your favor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 IIRC, the transmission was from GM initially. Yes! Like the various Jaguars, the Bentleys used the 3-speed Hydramatic. In fact, that's why the 350-in-a-Jag conversion is so popular. It bolts right up to the transmission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Oh please. I had no idea that those Bentleys tooled around with gigantic OHV engines under their 'bonnets'. At the very least it's 1-1, if not 1-0 in your favor. I'll take it. For good measure, they had the nerve to twin-turbocharge those "six-and-three-quarter" engines too. Fun times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZanatWork Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 There was a jag XJ-S in Classic Car Trader some years back that had a 4.6 and tranny swapped into it. I remember it because it was supposedly done by a Ford dealership mechanic, and I admit pining a little because that Jag is one I always found attractive...but I would never miss the nightmarish wiring and what-not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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