Lincoln sporty coupe?

[jpd80]

So what are we saying, 2-door version of MKZ with V6 Ecoboost and AWD?

 

Does that sound like a plan?

[TBirdStangSkyliner]

Thanks Ed for bringing the discussion back on point: Sporty Lincoln Coupe. Audi is arguably the best model for Lincoln right now. Including a coupe if/when Lincoln can do it. And the A5/S6 coupe is AWD, not RWD. So it could be a good model for a Lincoln not based off a Mustang.

 

 

Not so fast, at least not with JPD's clarification answer about V6 ecoboost.

 

There is miles of difference between Audi's AWD and intelligent-AWD. The Audi is a rear biased AWD which can handle much more HP than can the "only when slipping or maybe ready to slip (how do the sensors know when a wheel might soon slip?)" electronic clutch system found in Lincoln AWD's. Transverse with a clutch pack replacing viscous coupling doesn't equal longitudinal with a sophisticated differential and torque distribution system.

[jpd80]

Not so fast, at least not with JPD's clarification answer about V6 ecoboost.

 

There is miles of difference between Audi's AWD and intelligent-AWD. The Audi is a rear biased AWD which can handle much more HP than can the "only when slipping or maybe ready to slip (how do the sensors know when a wheel might soon slip?)" electronic clutch system found in Lincoln AWD's. Transverse with a clutch pack replacing viscous coupling doesn't equal longitudinal with a sophisticated differential and torque distribution system.

The Ford AWD system as applied to D3 sends up to 90% of torque rearwards on launch,

I would call that intelligent AWD - even if the weight bias in the nose is not as good as RWD/AWD.

 

The Ford AWD system monitors the ABS tone wheel sensors on all four wheels for slippage

and adjusts the torque biasing accordingly, it can even apply some brake force as a quasi LSD

Edited June 10, 2012 by jpd80

[Edstock]

The Ford AWD system as applied to D3 sends up to 90% of torque rearwards on launch,

I would call that intelligent AWD - even if the weight bias in the nose is not as good as RWD/AWD.

 

The Ford AWD system monitors the ABS tone wheel sensors on all four wheels for slippage

and adjusts the torque biasing accordingly, it can even apply some brake force as a quasi LSD

 

Been driving an AWD SEL 2011 Taurus, and the AWD launch on wet roads is amazing. The FWD Toyota/Nissan torque-steers, then the traction control kicks in and takes the power away — this being seen in the rear-view mirror of the Taurus as it pulls away.

[akirby]

how do the sensors know when a wheel might soon slip?

 

The sensors don't know, the computer does. It predicts the potential for slippage based on throttle input and steering wheel angle among other things (accelerating while turning e.g.).

[papilgee4evaeva]

The bloody A4 looks like (and under the skin, is) a VW Jetta

 

:nonono: :nonono:

 

Is not and never has been.

 

The forthcoming A3 sedan will be, however.

[timmm55]

:nonono: :nonono:

 

Is not and never has been.

 

The forthcoming A3 sedan will be, however.

 

I believe it was, bur now isn't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group_B_platform

B5 / PL45

• Audi A4 (Typ 8D, 1994–2002)
  
• Audi S4 (Typ 8D, 1997–2002)
  
• Volkswagen Passat B5 (Typ 3B, 1996–2001)
  
• Audi RS4 Avant (Typ 8D, 2000–2001)
  
• Volkswagen Passat B5.5 (Typ 3BG, 2001–2005)
  

[jpd80]

The sensors don't know, the computer does. It predicts the potential for slippage based on throttle input and steering wheel angle among other things (accelerating while turning e.g.).

The computer also uses inputs from the ABS tone sensors on each wheel, it can detect up to 10% slip.

[jpd80]

:nonono: :nonono:

 

Is not and never has been.

 

The forthcoming A3 sedan will be, however.

Even though the floorpan and suspension may be shared with jetta,

the top hat and framing is completely unique to Audi

[TBirdStangSkyliner]

The Ford AWD system as applied to D3 sends up to 90% of torque rearwards on launch,

I would call that intelligent AWD - even if the weight bias in the nose is not as good as RWD/AWD.

 

The Ford AWD system monitors the ABS tone wheel sensors on all four wheels for slippage

and adjusts the torque biasing accordingly, it can even apply some brake force as a quasi LSD

 

Is there a way to really know that 90% of the torque is sent to the rear wheels. I'm not trying to be a smartarss. I have seen no official claims, and I've looked fairly hard. I've seen third party claims ranging from 50% to 100%. I've also seen the Subaru YouTube tests where similar, non-Ford systems can't climb a grade when front wheels are on free-spinning rollers. Then there is the test where the Explorer didn't fare well in a climb where torque transfer was apparently important. I'd really like to find a credible independent test and comparison of the system. I've driven quite a few of the AWD systems on mountain pass, winter conditions. Several are far from adequate, which the various Subaru and Audi tests seem to display.

[akirby]

The computer also uses inputs from the ABS tone sensors on each wheel, it can detect up to 10% slip.

 

True, but the question was how it anticipated slip before it happens.

[jpd80]

True, but the question was how it anticipated slip before it happens.

It can't , not without knowing the amount of adhesion available,

that can only be determined by feedback from the wheel sensors.

[Edstock]

The sensor rate (KHz? maybe higher?) of operation probably makes it operate continuously as the vehicle moves, especially with stability computer(s) taking the feed and giving orders to clutch packs and brakes, if I understand the Ford AWD system correctly.

 

Anyway, it sure works invisibly in the Taurus.

[akirby]

It can't , not without knowing the amount of adhesion available,

that can only be determined by feedback from the wheel sensors.

 

It doesn't know for sure, but it can tell when slip is likely to occur and it will transfer torque to prevent it before it senses any actual slippage based on throttle input and steering wheel angle. This has been discussed a lot.

[papilgee4evaeva]

I believe it was, bur now isn't.

http://en.wikipedia....roup_B_platform

B5 / PL45

• Audi A4 (Typ 8D, 1994–2002)
  
• Audi S4 (Typ 8D, 1997–2002)
  
• Volkswagen Passat B5 (Typ 3B, 1996–2001)
  
• Audi RS4 Avant (Typ 8D, 2000–2001)
  
• Volkswagen Passat B5.5 (Typ 3BG, 2001–2005)
  

 

Well, you did say Jetta (Group A platform) originally. Had you said Passat, I'd have agreed with you.

 

The Jetta itself has always been basically a Golf/Rabbit sedan.

[jpd80]

It doesn't know for sure, but it can tell when slip is likely to occur and it will transfer torque to prevent it before it senses any actual slippage based on throttle input and steering wheel angle. This has been discussed a lot.

OK, I'll met you half way, there are probably factory set dry adhesion limits set but the wheel sensors allow for correction in less than ideal traction.

In ideal traction situation, a whole set of parameters and cornering attitude can be factored in to allow for operation up to the traction limits

but when grip goes out the window the wheel sensors report slip to the ECU which responds with adjusted lower limits.

Edited June 11, 2012 by jpd80

[akirby]

OK, I'll met you half way, there are probably factory set dry adhesion limits set but the wheel sensors allow for correction in less than ideal traction.

In ideal traction situation, a whole set of parameters and cornering attitude can be factored in to allow for traction limits

but when grip goes out the window the wheel sensors respond with adjusted lower limits.

 

Oh it absolutely will transfer torque if wheel slip is detected - that's a given. But it will also transfer torque before wheel slip occurs based on inputs from several sensors.

[RichardJensen]

similar, non-Ford systems

There are no similar non-Ford systems. Ford's system is patented.

 

And that Ford Explorer 'climb' was a run through the dunes on the Lake Michigan shore that was poorly supervised and poorly documented. It also involved a pre-production/hashed out press fleet vehicle.

 

Also:

 

http://media.ford.co...section_id=2871

Working in harmony with available traction assist and brake assist, available intelligent AWD transfers torque front to rear, dependent on need, with the precise amount of torque automatically delivered to the rear wheels in increments up to 100 percent.

 

It was the first search result returned by Google under:

"ford intelligent AWD transfer increment"

 

So I don't know what to make of: "I have seen no official claims, and I've looked fairly hard."

Edited June 11, 2012 by RichardJensen

[jpd80]

It's too easy for a skeptic to say "I've seen nothing, prove it"

 

and then you have to do all the running around..

[timmm55]

Well, you did say Jetta (Group A platform) originally. Had you said Passat, I'd have agreed with you.

 

The Jetta itself has always been basically a Golf/Rabbit sedan.

 

Mea culpa I get them confused LOL

[jpd80]

Oh it absolutely will transfer torque if wheel slip is detected - that's a given. But it will also transfer torque before wheel slip occurs based on inputs from several sensors.

That's what I meant in my reply, there's a whole lot of settings added into the program so the ECU knows preset limits of grip

and also preferred front-rear torque split under all circumstances, loss of traction being the only main modifier to the program.

 

The more I think about the system, the more sophisticated it appears - I think Ford have done a brilliant job with it.

Edited June 11, 2012 by jpd80

[akirby]

The more I think about the system, the more sophisticated it appears - I think Ford have done a brilliant job with it.

 

Exactly. The only weak links are the PTU which would need to be beefed up and cooled for continual use and open diffs. It's also a simpler system with no center differential.

[papilgee4evaeva]

Mea culpa I get them confused LOL

 

With the current gen, it happens. :lol:

 

There are no similar non-Ford systems. Ford's system is patented.

 

SH-AWD seems the closest, I think.

[RichardJensen]

SH-AWD seems the closest, I think.

Possibly, but it is still very different from Ford's iAWD system.

 

It is far more complex, in that it uses clutch packs on the rear axles to control left to right torque distribution. It is also more limited in that it cannot send 100% of the engine output to just one axle.

 

But, like iAWD, it uses clutches instead of a center diff.

[RichardJensen]

the more sophisticated it appears

I am impressed by Ford & Borg-Warner's foresight in eliminating all vestiges of mechanical AWD activation as far back as 1994. The future is electronic engagement and management of AWD torque transfer, and Ford/Borg-Warner have built a simple, compact, sturdy and sophisticated system.