RichardJensen Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 (edited) My comment is based from what I have repeatedly read What difference does any of that make? You don't make billion dollar decisions off what anonymous yahoos say on the internet. And you don't make them based on the musings and rantings of uninvested journalists either. Edited June 4, 2012 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 The problem with that is, though, is that the vast majority of those "OTHERS" you refer to aren't going to buy a Lincoln no matter what they do to the brand anyway. So why "take one for the team" if is isn't going to result in any benefits of any great significance? Lincoln is [/i]already[/i] establishing a steady customer base that should see growth with revised models already in the pipeline. Lincoln needs to stick with the plan and to those "OTHERS" who thumb their nose at the brand they should just say "phooey." Precisely. Gushing reviews in magazines and online blogs don't sell vehicles and bad reviews don't normally hurt sales. I don't think many car buyers actually read car magazines or look at online reviews outside of consumer reports. People buy what they've had before and liked or what their friends drive that they like or whatever catches their eye on the road or browsing the showroom. A high end dealer experience, longer warranty, free maintenance, knockout styling inside and out and all of the requisite luxury amenities and they'll sell just fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Precisely. Gushing reviews in magazines and online blogs don't sell vehicles and bad reviews don't normally hurt sales. I don't think many car buyers actually read car magazines or look at online reviews outside of consumer reports. but conversely, Good reviews help more often then bad ones do... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Conversely, if customer service is a greater influence on purchasing decisions than positive reviews from car mags, what should Ford focus on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Conversely, if customer service is a greater influence on purchasing decisions than positive reviews from car mags, what should Ford focus on? Sort of a chicken or egg approach...you first have to get your consumer to buy the car so they can experience the customer service.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OHV 16V Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 ...The Lexus RX (FWD/AWD) sells 10K units a month on average...thats the sales numbers of multiple RWD sedans from multiple manufactures... Not BMW, which is counter to the FWD/AWD argument. With RWD & AWD vehicles, they're the number one-selling luxury make in the U.S., trumping Lexus last year. Their lead appears to be widening over Lexus as well last time I looked. And if I'm not mistaken, unless things changed last year, the 3-Series is still the best-selling luxury vehicle in the U.S. yet again. Also, where did you see that figure for RX? They've only crested 10k 3 times from Jan. 2010 til now. A LOT of months they're NOWHERE near that, sometimes almost half. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Curb appeal of the car & dealership, standard and optional luxury items, etc. A certain amount of performance is expected, the question is how much, not whether said performance will make Angus MacKenzie, for the briefest period of time, stop being a jackass. Bottom line, a management team that built Ford's market share off borrowed and outdated ('08 Escape, Focus) platforms, I think, can be trusted to properly gauge customer sentiment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Not BMW BMW is sui generis. There business model is predicated on being BMW, which--last I checked--is not an option available to Lincoln. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Not BMW, which is counter to the FWD/AWD argument. With RWD & AWD vehicles, they're the number one-selling luxury make in the U.S., trumping Lexus last year. Yet even BMW knows its limits. Isn't the next 1-series (well, kinda -- the current 1-series I hear will become the 2-series) going to be FWD? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 (edited) I wonder, just how many people who believe Lincoln should make a RWD sports car would be willing to buy one themselves. or is it a perception of what those people think that Lincoln should offer? Guessing the market these days is a slippery slope to ruin, only good market research will give auto companies the data they need to get best bang for investment buck spent on new products. Edited June 4, 2012 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Also, where did you see that figure for RX? They've only crested 10k 3 times from Jan. 2010 til now. A LOT of months they're NOWHERE near that, sometimes almost half. Guess you never heard about the tsunami they had last year either huh? Anyways, for example, BMW (of all types) sold 22,168 units last month...the RX sold 10,647 units alone from one platform. The point still stands...in most cases it would take at least 2-3 RWD cars (depending on price point) to equal the Monthly sales of one nameplate, the RX. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 I wonder, just how many people who believe Lincoln should make a RWD sports car would be willing to buy one themselves. I'm not sure what to call the phenomena on the Internet, but I see it all the time. I saw it on Focus message boards with the ST..people wanted it etc etc...then saw the pricing then said it was too much money. I even see it with plastic models! Its crazy....I guess people want things they can't afford... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 I'm not sure what to call the phenomena on the Internet, but I see it all the time. I saw it on Focus message boards with the ST..people wanted it etc etc...then saw the pricing then said it was too much money. I even see it with plastic models! Its crazy....I guess people want things they can't afford... That, and even if Lincoln launched a new RWD sedan and someone complaining about them not offering one could afford one, they'd probably still just end up buying a BMW instead because they'd find something else about the Lincoln that they don't consider "world class" enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 I'm not sure what to call the phenomena on the Internet, but I see it all the time. I saw it on Focus message boards with the ST..people wanted it etc etc...then saw the pricing then said it was too much money. I even see it with plastic models! Its crazy....I guess people want things they can't afford... It's normalcy syndrome: I like (Insert Item), since I am a normal person, a lot of other people probably like the same things I do. Therefore (insert manufacturer) should be building (insert product) This is the problem of looking outwards and assuming that one's own preferences are typical of everyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 they'd find something else about the Lincoln that they don't consider "world class" enough. Exactly. Man is not a rational animal. Man is a rationalizing animal. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmm55 Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 (edited) Precisely. Gushing reviews in magazines and online blogs don't sell vehicles and bad reviews don't normally hurt sales. I don't think many car buyers actually read car magazines or look at online reviews outside of consumer reports. People buy what they've had before and liked or what their friends drive that they like or whatever catches their eye on the road or browsing the showroom. A high end dealer experience, longer warranty, free maintenance, knockout styling inside and out and all of the requisite luxury amenities and they'll sell just fine. I disagree with most of that, except for the premium service part.....that is important. Lincoln needs a hit right now. Their base has eroded, and it will take something dramatic to get the luxury buyers interested again. Something the Buff Mags and Zines really like. Great reviews don't guarantee sales (Suzuki!) but it garners approval for some, in a segment that is very conscience of image. It only takes a few "in the know" kinda people to start the ball rolling. Nobody in the luxury market wants a mediocre car. The styling and technology of the MKZ is there, if the performance is mid-pack or better (vs Lexus ES350, et al) it should do well. BAD Reviews are bad! Acura hasn't had a good review in awhile. And Bad styling reviews, obvious to most, is a major part of that. Name a good selling Luxury car that has bad reviews? Consumer Reports does matter, I agree. But less so than for value oriented consumers like Honda, Ford or Toyota. IMHO luxury buyers are less loyal to a brand, but are more likely to be impressed by whatever is the status quo "luxury" car. Audi, BMW and Mercedes are not the most problem free, yet people luxury owners have made them favorites. Japanese luxury cars do well in CR, but Infiniti is not a great seller either. Most people who have high performance cars use them harder, some luxury cars included. And those owners will take performance over absolute reliability. So if Lincoln does make a performance coupe it will have to compare well to others in it's segment, like the Audi S5. And an MKZ coupe wouldn't cut it. Edited June 4, 2012 by timmm55 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmm55 Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 I'm not sure what to call the phenomena on the Internet, but I see it all the time. I saw it on Focus message boards with the ST..people wanted it etc etc...then saw the pricing then said it was too much money. I even see it with plastic models! Its crazy....I guess people want things they can't afford... It's like planning a party. You invite 30 guests, and 20 show up. You don't expect everyone to come. It isn't a new phenomena, just a different milieu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Lincoln needs a hit right now. Their base has eroded, and it will take something dramatic to get the luxury buyers interested again. Something the Buff Mags and Zines really like. Great reviews don't guarantee sales (Suzuki!) but it garners approval for some, in a segment that is very conscience of image. It only takes a few "in the know" kinda people to start the ball rolling. Nobody in the luxury market wants a mediocre car. The styling and technology of the MKZ is there, if the performance is mid-pack or better (vs Lexus ES350, et al) it should do well. Depends on what you consider a "hit". If the MKZ increases sales by 50% I'd call that a hit. What Lincoln needs is better service and a stable of competitive luxury vehicles of many different shapes and sizes. They'll get a lot more out of 7 really good vehicles than they will out of one great one. The CTS hasn't done much for Cadillac - especially when you consider how many billions they pumped into it. BAD Reviews are bad! Acura hasn't had a good review in awhile. And Bad styling reviews, obvious to most, is a major part of that. Name a good selling Luxury car that has bad reviews? I would submit that Acuras aren't selling because the styling is bad and that is also reflected in the reviews. If someone sees an Acura and they like it then an article that pans the styling will not change their minds. It's also very unlikely that the AVERAGE car buyer even reads such a review. They may research options and pricing or check reliability but that's about it. I don't recall seeing any really bad reviews for luxury cars - they're usually just different degrees of good. So if Lincoln does make a performance coupe it will have to compare well to others in it's segment, like the Audi S5. And an MKZ coupe wouldn't cut it. A MKZ coupe with AWD and a 365 hp 3.5L EB and electronically controlled suspension would compete nicely with a S5 for less money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 it will take something dramatic to get the luxury buyers interested again What was the 'something dramatic' that Lexus did, again? (if your memory serves, Toyota was widely lambasted for being very, very late to the Japanese Lux game, and for having a very small lineup when they eventually arrived) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANTAUS Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 I'm hearing wwaaayyy too many excuses and no concrete solutions though. The brand is damaged and will be for some while, and it will take quality products that appeal to consumers to gain it back into most consumers shopping list. Right now, its barely a bleep. And the only excuses I'm reading are "Wait till the MKZ" comes out, hmm then what? Two years later then another vehicle...and 2 years after that, another. The sentiment seems to be that Lincoln doesn't really seem to have a cohesive plan, or at least some of us have hopes there is one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 The plan starts with revamped dealership experiences (already underway), then the new MKZ followed by 2 C segment vehicles (presumably a sedan and a utility). The design team has only been in place about a year and Ford doesn't have the resources to build 7 new Lincolns simultaneously. They can rush something out quickly and fail again or they can take their time and do it right. Just because they don't give away product plans 2 years in advance like GM does doesn't mean they aren't working on it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 (edited) I'm hearing wwaaayyy too many excuses and no concrete solutions though. The brand is damaged and will be for some while, and it will take quality products that appeal to consumers to gain it back into most consumers shopping list. Right now, its barely a bleep. And the only excuses I'm reading are "Wait till the MKZ" comes out, hmm then what? Two years later then another vehicle...and 2 years after that, another. The sentiment seems to be that Lincoln doesn't really seem to have a cohesive plan, or at least some of us have hopes there is one. Excuses? Lincolns lives in the grace of Ford and it is Ford who will decide how much investment versus return they give Lincoln. There are lots of vehicle types Ford and Lincoln could build, but that doesn't mean they should build every one of them. I am slightly disappointed that Ford hasn't capitalized on it's great SUVs and given Lincoln a "Mariner" , a new Aviator and a fresh Navigator.. Those three vehicles make far more sense than throwing money at a sports coupe in the hopes of luring luxury buyers away from BMW, MB ect.. Edited June 5, 2012 by jpd80 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OHV 16V Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 Guess you never heard about the tsunami they had last year either huh?... Yep, I did. That's why I looked back at 2010 as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 What was the 'something dramatic' that Lexus did, again? (if your memory serves, Toyota was widely lambasted for being very, very late to the Japanese Lux game, and for having a very small lineup when they eventually arrived) I dunno about dramatic, but the LS450 at the time was priced pretty cheaply for what it was..now its the flagship sedan of the Lexus line up....it seemed like it was setup as a loss leader to generate interest in the brand and the price was punched up as lesser models where able to elevate it to its current levels. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 I'm hearing wwaaayyy too many excuses and no concrete solutions though. The brand is damaged and will be for some while, and it will take quality products that appeal to consumers to gain it back into most consumers shopping list. Right now, its barely a bleep. And the only excuses I'm reading are "Wait till the MKZ" comes out, hmm then what? Two years later then another vehicle...and 2 years after that, another. The sentiment seems to be that Lincoln doesn't really seem to have a cohesive plan, or at least some of us have hopes there is one. Bashing your drums won't change this either. Its not going to fix Lincoln overnight either. Slow and steady win the race... Just look at Ford where it was in 2006 (even more so in 2008 when it was deep in the shit) to where they are now 6 years later... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.