PREMiERdrum Posted July 20, 2012 Author Share Posted July 20, 2012 Yeah, let's wait to see if the '13 has a dozen recalls in its first model year... PWND. :reading: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svtenthusiast Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 The funniest line they use is "you are all ford guys who only see ford through rose coloured glasses"...it's a ford site...YA THINK?? Yea, I am really a troll. I have been here for 5 years and have owned nothing but Ford's all my life. Take a look at my signature and get a clue. Just because this is a Ford site doesn't mean we all have to be apologists. Grow up. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Yea, I am really a troll. I have been here for 5 years and have owned nothing but Ford's all my life. Take a look at my signature and get a clue. Just because this is a Ford site doesn't mean we all have to be apologists. Grow up. We're not apologists - we're realists who don't blow real but relatively minor issues out of proportion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transitman Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Wait... what...? Not everyone... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted July 20, 2012 Author Share Posted July 20, 2012 We're not apologists - we're realists who don't blow real but relatively minor issues out of proportion. BORG notwithstanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 BORG notwithstanding. Yes - sorry. I should have clarified that. Most of us are realists, Borg, Fordbuyer and a couple of others obviously excluded...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 (edited) To play devil's advocate.....we do jump all over other automakers when stuff like this happens. I can't say we are exactly "realists" when the shoe is on the other foot. Granted it's a Ford site, but let's not pretend that there's no bias when it comes to doling out the spin when it comes to Ford issues. Edited July 20, 2012 by Intrepidatious 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FPVFalcom Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 (edited) Yeah, let's wait to see if the '13 has a dozen recalls in its first model year... He was referencing the "last generation" Escape (2008-2012)...which had 4 recalls from 2008 to 2012. The 2013 Escape...which is "The smarter way to get there" according to Ford's web site, has had two already....in a single week. And justifying these two recalls by referencing the fact that other manufactures have recalls (ie: Escapes starting on fire is ok because Honda has recalls too) or by saying that these recalls are ok because when the Escape first came out, it had more recalls isn't really accomplishing anything...unless you want Ford to be exactly like Honda. A recall is a recall...and real consumers..both who own the vehicle and are interested in one have expressed concerns...in this very thread. Now isn't really the time to try and justify and mimimize the recalls...but maybe kick around some solutions as RJ has. It will be interesting to see if the Fusion has a better launch (and even the tech laden MKZ). Hopefully Ford learns from the Escape and ensures a flawless launch for those two vitally important products. Edited July 20, 2012 by FPVFalcom 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 And justifying these two recalls by referencing the fact that other manufactures have recalls (ie: Escapes starting on fire is ok because Honda has recalls too) or by saying that these recalls are ok because when the Escape first came out, it had more recalls isn't really accomplishing anything...unless you want Ford to be exactly like Honda. A recall is a recall...and real consumers..both who own the vehicle and are interested in one have expressed concerns...in this very thread. Now isn't really the time to try and justify and mimimize the recalls...but maybe kick around some solutions as RJ has. It will be interesting to see if the Fusion has a better launch (and even the tech laden MKZ). Hopefully Ford learns from the Escape and ensures a flawless launch for those two vitally important products. Nobody is justifying the recalls or saying that they are OK. Recalls are bad and can give the manufacturer a black eye, yes. But, you also have to realize that cars are mechanical devices made by man, and therefore are not perfect. Things have been a lot worse, hence the reference to the previous Escape. That doesn't make this recall OK, but it does go a long way towards pointing out the sky isn't falling. And really, what can Ford learn from this recall? They received a bad batch of parts from the supplier? Should they check every single part they receive? That's not possible. You can have all the consistency checks and processes in place, and sometimes, things still slip through the cracks. Now, had this been a couple months down the road and it affected a bunch more Escapes, I would be a little more worries. The fact is, it was found pretty quickly (by chance maybe because one caught on fire), and the issue has been addressed. To me, there are two different things that can make a recall seem extremely bad: 1) The total number of vehicles affected - this tells me either that a big QC issue exists or the problem happens a long ways down the line and it wasn't noticed before many bad parts made it out (which leads back to a QC issue for letting that many bad parts out). You could lump Ford's cruise control issue here, but the problem was so minuscule (what, like 0.0001% or something like that) that you really just can't prevent that. Sure, it was a bad design, but how do you catch the problem when it happens 1 out of every 1 million times? 2) A potential serious condition resulting from the issue that the vehicle is being recalled for (such as a fire). If the numbers are low, that tells me it was caught early in the QC process and that QC was doing it's job (or it happens so frequently you can't miss it, in which case, maybe they just got lucky). Either way, news media is going to jump on both because it makes for a good story. Bottom line, the sky is not falling. Yet. If this continues, then we can worry. It's just a coincidence that there were 2 recalls in a week. And the first most likely wouldn't have necessitated a recall, Ford was just being proactive in an attempt to make the vehicle as perfect as possible to prevent further issues down the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted July 20, 2012 Author Share Posted July 20, 2012 To play devil's advocate.....we do jump all over other automakers when stuff like this happens. I can't say we are exactly "realists" when the show is on the other foot. Granted it's a Ford site, but let's not pretend that there's no bias when it comes to doling out the spin when it comes to Ford issues. Have we really jumped all over another make for a 10k unit recall? 400k Cruzes, sure thing. Several million Toyotas, yep. 10k of anything? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Have we really jumped all over another make for a 10k unit recall? 400k Cruzes, sure thing. Several million Toyotas, yep. 10k of anything? I only recall people pointing out other mfr recalls to prove that all mfrs (even Honda and Toyota) have recalls and failed parts. In today's environment, there are going to be things that slip by. The key is how it's handled. Catching something early and acting swiftly to fix it and limiting it to a small number of vehicles is key. Ignoring a problem or not reacting swiftly or trying to hide the problem is NOT acceptable and I will call that out when I think I see it. And that's not the case here. Continuing to have problems one after the other would point to a systemic process problem that should be fixed and would lead me to worry about the brand in general - again, that's not the case here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Continuing to have problems one after the other would point to a systemic process problem that should be fixed and would lead me to worry about the brand in general - again, that's not the case here. Oh but it is! This is twice in the same week! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbyd Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Today's Free Press indicates that the problem is caused by the supplier who "scored" the fuel lines on their conveyor prior to shipping the fuel lines to the Assembly Plant. As usual, Ford will NOT mention the name of the supplier at fault....thus, the perception is Ford CAUSED THE PROBLEM! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Today's Free Press indicates that the problem is caused by the supplier who "scored" the fuel lines on their conveyor prior to shipping the fuel lines to the Assembly Plant. As usual, Ford will NOT mention the name of the supplier at fault....thus, the perception is Ford CAUSED THE PROBLEM! The reality is, it IS Ford's problem. Ford is responsible for every part it gets from it's suppliers. Ford has nothing to gain by naming the supplier. In effect, it could cause more issues as other manufacturers may choose not to use that supplier, that supplier goes under, Ford doesn't have parts, etc. Ford will handle it internally with the supplier...no need to go public and make them look bad. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Today's Free Press indicates that the problem is caused by the supplier who "scored" the fuel lines on their conveyor prior to shipping the fuel lines to the Assembly Plant. As usual, Ford will NOT mention the name of the supplier at fault....thus, the perception is Ford CAUSED THE PROBLEM! It's Ford's responsibility regardless of the source. My guess is the supplier has been asked to document what went wrong and why and to provide a plan of action to make sure it doesn't happen again. I would also expect Ford to inspect and/or test parts from this supplier much more often or to modify their inspection/test methods if this was missed. It's just a PIO - Process Improvement Opportunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goinbroke2 Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Yea, I am really a troll. I have been here for 5 years and have owned nothing but Ford's all my life. Take a look at my signature and get a clue. Just because this is a Ford site doesn't mean we all have to be apologists. Grow up. Meh, you used a troll line and I called you on it. Are you a troll? No I don't think so, but that line stuck in my head after reading response after response about how terrible ford is and I used it. I will admit I side with ford for the most part but I'm not blind either. There are a couple on here that continually bash ford either outright or with backhanded compliments, don't understand why they are even here. So, I'll try to "get a clue" and not hurt your feelings if you'll refrain from using common troll lines, ok? LOL Don't hold your breath on my "growing up" either, wife says men don't, so I stopped trying LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Have we really jumped all over another make for a 10k unit recall? 400k Cruzes, sure thing. Several million Toyotas, yep. 10k of anything? Haha....yeah are a bunch of angels <snicker snicker >. Just outta the first initial search for "recall" (this one being only 8k units) ....we have driveshaft loops and Jellymoulds going off about the Taliban driving in a Toyota. lol http://www.blueovalforums.com/forums/index.php?/topic/38013-recall-alert-2010-toyota-tacoma/ Mind you, it's all in fun, ....but let's not try and hide behind the spin. Every manufacturer screws up. If the enthusiasts can't take a little ribbing for these things, then they are in for many sleepless nights. Ford folks included. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted July 20, 2012 Author Share Posted July 20, 2012 (edited) Without further adieu... Edited July 20, 2012 by PREMiERdrum 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Today's Free Press indicates that the problem is caused by the supplier who "scored" the fuel lines on their conveyor prior to shipping the fuel lines to the Assembly Plant. As usual, Ford will NOT mention the name of the supplier at fault....thus, the perception is Ford CAUSED THE PROBLEM! What bothers me a little is that when you had thousands of these units sitting in holding areas waiting for OK stickers, and during batch and hold, SOMEONE would have noticed some oil leaks and/or some fuel leaks especially the smell of fuel. I hope it's not true, but you get the feeling the workers at LAP either don't care and look away, or just don't pay attention at all to let defective units ship to dealers. It would only take one employee to spot something amiss and catch it in time before shipping. ONE worker. For that matter, I've never gotten good vibes from MAP either. Trash all over parking lots and so many employee cars in lots non Ford products. I'm sorry, but looks like Hermosillo is Ford's showcase plant. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 What bothers me a little is that when you had thousands of these units sitting in holding areas waiting for OK stickers, and during batch and hold, SOMEONE would have noticed some oil leaks and/or some fuel leaks especially the smell of fuel. I hope it's not true, but you get the feeling the workers at LAP either don't care and look away, or just don't pay attention at all to let defective units ship to dealers. It would only take one employee to spot something amiss and catch it in time before shipping. ONE worker. For that matter, I've never gotten good vibes from MAP either. Trash all over parking lots and so many employee cars in lots non Ford products. I'm sorry, but looks like Hermosillo is Ford's showcase plant. It's quite possible that this is something that only happens when the vehicle is running and the line is under pressure...and possibly until it's already an unrecoverable issue as well. I wouldn't expect to be able to smell the fuel until it is already too late or the owner is very lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 What bothers me a little is that when you had thousands of these units sitting in holding areas waiting for OK stickers, and during batch and hold, SOMEONE would have noticed some oil leaks and/or some fuel leaks especially the smell of fuel. I hope it's not true, but you get the feeling the workers at LAP either don't care and look away, or just don't pay attention at all to let defective units ship to dealers. It would only take one employee to spot something amiss and catch it in time before shipping. ONE worker. For that matter, I've never gotten good vibes from MAP either. Trash all over parking lots and so many employee cars in lots non Ford products. I'm sorry, but looks like Hermosillo is Ford's showcase plant. Did you forget a line worker found the issue with the carpet? Plus, since we don't know all of the details, we don't know that this fuel line would leak just sitting on the lot. You're jumping to conclusions again. Remember, this engine is DI, so it may only leak when under high pressure, and only if conditions are perfect. As far as MAP workers not driving Ford's, that just crap! They are free to drive what they want! Would I drive Ford if I were employed by them? Sure, but I already do. Would I drive a Dodge if I were employed by them? I don't know. I would put my money where I find the best product. Sure, it's a good idea to support your employer, but it is a huge chunk of change you plunk down for a vehicle, so you should pick what you like best. You own a Porsche, so you should be kicked out of the US for not buying an American car! Again, you don't know the details, so don't judge. Maybe they were used vehicles. Maybe there were minivans. Is a Microsoft employee allowed to own a Mac? An iPod? An Android phone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 but you get the feeling the workers at LAP either don't care and look away, or just don't pay attention at all to let defective units ship to dealers. That's a little presumptuous, don't you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Did you forget a line worker found the issue with the carpet? Plus, since we don't know all of the details, we don't know that this fuel line would leak just sitting on the lot. You're jumping to conclusions again. Remember, this engine is DI, so it may only leak when under high pressure, and only if conditions are perfect. As far as MAP workers not driving Ford's, that just crap! They are free to drive what they want! Would I drive Ford if I were employed by them? Sure, but I already do. Would I drive a Dodge if I were employed by them? I don't know. I would put my money where I find the best product. Sure, it's a good idea to support your employer, but it is a huge chunk of change you plunk down for a vehicle, so you should pick what you like best. You own a Porsche, so you should be kicked out of the US for not buying an American car! Again, you don't know the details, so don't judge. Maybe they were used vehicles. Maybe there were minivans. Is a Microsoft employee allowed to own a Mac? An iPod? An Android phone? I said batch and hold. And plants get reputations over time also. MTP never had a good reputation around here and some of the stories over the years are unbelievable. I would bet there are lots of bad actors still at the retooled MTP now called MAP that Ford hasn't been able to root out for various reasons. I go by that plant all the time and have seen video of lots of the workers in there, and it doesn't impress much. So I wasn't surprised to see early fit and finish problems on the Focus, although I will say it looks like fit and finish has improved and build quality is better. I hope the MAP gets a good reputation over time, but it still would surprise me if they did. Maybe when all the bad actors are out of there and replaced with better employees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 That's a little presumptuous, don't you think? When dealerships and drivers of the new Escape discover the problem, and employees doing batch and hold supposedly can't, it does make you wonder. I remember back when original Focus came out and built at WAP, there were convoys of new Focuses going up I-275 for weeks on end, and yet shortly after being shipped all kinds of problems and gripes from dealerships and customers. Yeah, you lose confidence in their quality control system when that stuff happens. I do wonder if they just say ship and give problem to dealer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transitman Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 This is clearly the fault of the supplier and their QC procedures and if Ford isn't going to call them out, they should look for another supplier. Could it be due to inferior Chinese copper and a flawed manufacturing process?? These engines are not put together like at the Lotus factory where one person builds it start to finish, inspects each part and carefully and methodically completes the build. I don't have firsthand knowledge, but my guess is by this stage of the build, its mass production, the part is taken from a bin and installed before the next unit comes along. With speed and efficiency a priority, how can the line worker be expected to spot such a small defect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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