akirby Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 While your statement is true, I can't see how it could be in any way applicable in this circumstance. Turning off QC measures must be assumed to lead to worse quality. And worse quality has a tendency to affect the company for the mid-term, in the form of ongoing costs to fix these issues, as well as negative press. Assuming that worse quality was an expected outcome of this, what short term gains could possibly offset that? A few thousand additional units sold? Unnecessary. Ford's operating margins are already among the best in the business. They don't need to goose their topline numbers at the expense of reputation and ongoing headaches. Not saying that was definitely the case in that scenario - maybe in that case the proper risk assessment wasn't done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Not saying that was definitely the case in that scenario - maybe in that case the proper risk assessment wasn't done. Someone, at some level, certainly gambled and lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Someone, at some level, certainly gambled and lost. And depending on what level the gamble was made - somebody might be looking for a new job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKII Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 One other bone of contention is the hit and miss Powershift. I can see why Ford is having a difficult time sorting this one out. As it seems some owners experience is excellent while some are having a dreadful time with noisy, grinding, over heating, slipping,leaking and multiple trips to the service department. Some of the video`s posted by owners in North America showing some really nasty behaviour they are experiencing with their Powershift is troubling. But then there are others that are ecstatic with the Powershift, with zero issues. Hard to understand how there can be so much inconsistency. And these issues have nothing to do with owners not knowing or accepting that a dual clutch transmission has different characteristics to a normal automatic. The videos from these owners show flat out bad stuff going on and the service people are at a loss at what to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 The process is fine. But at some level unjustifiable deviations from the process were approved. OR IGNORED TO MEET REQUIRED DEADLINES....eeeek.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 I think like some other things (like the MFT APIMs) there are some legitimate hardware problems with certain vehicles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 You will be able to get Powershift in the Mondeo. You cannot get it in the Fusion. You cannot get it in the Escape. That tells you all you need to know about that little experiment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 One other bone of contention is the hit and miss Powershift. I can see why Ford is having a difficult time sorting this one out. As it seems some owners experience is excellent while some are having a dreadful time with noisy, grinding, over heating, slipping,leaking and multiple trips to the service department. Some of the video`s posted by owners in North America showing some really nasty behaviour they are experiencing with their Powershift is troubling. But then there are others that are ecstatic with the Powershift, with zero issues. Hard to understand how there can be so much inconsistency. And these issues have nothing to do with owners not knowing or accepting that a dual clutch transmission has different characteristics to a normal automatic. The videos from these owners show flat out bad stuff going on and the service people are at a loss at what to do. I still find it hard to believe that Ford didn't make the DCT an option instead of standard. They must have known that many are used to regular autos only and would have hard time adjusting to DCT no matter what. Whoever made that decision to make DCT standard and do away with normal auto trans made a big error, and hard to believe Mulally let that decision slip by at his weekly meeting with heads. I could see the DCT being standard on a sports car where most are used to manuals anyway and their characteristics, but the Focus is for that most part want affordable, defect free transportation with decent fuel mileage. For those that want ZOOM, ZOOM, ZOOM, give them DCT as an option with paddle shifters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 but the Focus is for that most part want affordable, defect free transportation with decent fuel mileage. For those that want ZOOM, ZOOM, ZOOM, give them DCT as an option with paddle shifters. It was done for better fuel economy, not performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 (edited) It was done because the Project leaders, Ford Europe convinced management that no changes in power trains were required for USA buyers, I have no problem with Ford using the tried an proven "wet clutch" version of the DCT in diesel and Ecoboost applications but the dry clutch version behaves differently and using the USA as first edition guinea pigs was a stupid move in hindsight. Edited October 30, 2012 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 That was another gamble that turned out poorly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 That was another gamble that turned out poorly. me , I like em, as my stepdaughter describes the Fiesta...its an Auto that thinks its a manual.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 (edited) I'm sure the negative quality ratings will halt quite a few potential sales, but how many sales are gained by people drawn to the features causing the decline? I doubt people walking into the dealership are turned off by MFT, I know I was drawn to it despite the mess it turned into for me. If Ford didn't have something special, there is less reason to choose Ford over the competition. I know I would almost certainly be an Audi owner at this point if it wasn't for the features baked into the 2011 Lincoln MKX. quality+boredom doesn't entice me either. And I remain because again Ford/Lincoln offers a unique case for tech and features, although they need to make their next move pretty soon to replace MFT with something significantly better because they are falling behind and they haven't even worked out the bugs. Edited October 30, 2012 by BORG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 I'm sure the negative quality ratings will halt quite a few potential sales, but how many sales are gained by people drawn to the features causing the decline? I doubt people walking into the dealership are turned off by MFT, I know I was drawn to it despite the mess it turned into for me. If Ford didn't have something special, there is less reason to choose Ford over the competition. I know I would almost certainly be an Audi owner at this point if it wasn't for the features baked into the 2011 Lincoln MKX. quality+boredom doesn't entice me either. And I remain because again Ford/Lincoln offers a unique case for tech and features, although they need to make their next move pretty soon to replace MFT with something significantly better because they are falling behind and they haven't even worked out the bugs. I've read a few reviews of Cadillac's CUE system and it doesn't seem to be faring much better than MLT so far at least. Descriptions were like not real intuitive, and overly complex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 (edited) I've read a few reviews of Cadillac's CUE system and it doesn't seem to be faring much better than MLT so far at least. Descriptions were like not real intuitive, and overly complex. Both manufacturers are over complicating systems that have been expressly designed to make things easier for the drivers to operate, The techno geeks have dropped the ball big time in pursuing a WOW system instead of delivering what was asked for. Edited October 30, 2012 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Not really. Some complexity cannot be eliminated. The old EATC systems that had multiple passenger and driver adjustments were not simple. Neither were stereo systems that had CD, AM/FM, satellite, and auxiliary inputs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Not really. Some complexity cannot be eliminated. The old EATC systems that had multiple passenger and driver adjustments were not simple. Neither were stereo systems that had CD, AM/FM, satellite, and auxiliary inputs. Makes you wonder whether all these options are now becoming more of a driver distraction.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geronimo183 Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Why don't Ford follow the foot steps of the Germans regarding build and material quality? Volkswagen are making immense profits in a world recession and maintaining if not exceeding build quality standards. The Germans are very good at perception quality. E.g. open a VW door and note how it is hinged thus making the door heavy to lever, which subsequently gives the perception of a better build quality. They are very good at minimising gaps on the dash board and exterior panels making surfaces smooth to touch. On their plastics they surface coat them with a vinyl veneer to boost the perception of quality in commonly touched areas of the cabin. Why don't they look to produce a more versatile/common platform as per VW? The Golf, Golf Plus, Touran, Scirocco, all use the same platform including other models in the Skoda, Audi and Seat stable. For Ford to survive in Europe they have to compete with the German marques head on to stand any chance of survival, especially VW who are looking to become the biggest and best by 2018. Good Luck Ford! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 I'm sure the negative quality ratings will halt quite a few potential sales, but how many sales are gained by people drawn to the features causing the decline? I doubt people walking into the dealership are turned off by MFT, I know I was drawn to it despite the mess it turned into for me. If Ford didn't have something special, there is less reason to choose Ford over the competition. I know I would almost certainly be an Audi owner at this point if it wasn't for the features baked into the 2011 Lincoln MKX. quality+boredom doesn't entice me either. And I remain because again Ford/Lincoln offers a unique case for tech and features, although they need to make their next move pretty soon to replace MFT with something significantly better because they are falling behind and they haven't even worked out the bugs. maybe , but I doubt it...I would be REALLY interested in the age demographic that actually takes CR seriously, my guess would be they are a little older in age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Volkswagen are making immense profits in a world recession Roughly a third of their profits last fiscal year came from currency hedges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Why don't Ford follow the foot steps of the Germans regarding build and material quality? Volkswagen are making immense profits in a world recession and maintaining if not exceeding build quality standards. The Germans are very good at perception quality. E.g. open a VW door and note how it is hinged thus making the door heavy to lever, which subsequently gives the perception of a better build quality. They are very good at minimising gaps on the dash board and exterior panels making surfaces smooth to touch. On their plastics they surface coat them with a vinyl veneer to boost the perception of quality in commonly touched areas of the cabin. Why don't they look to produce a more versatile/common platform as per VW? The Golf, Golf Plus, Touran, Scirocco, all use the same platform including other models in the Skoda, Audi and Seat stable. For Ford to survive in Europe they have to compete with the German marques head on to stand any chance of survival, especially VW who are looking to become the biggest and best by 2018. Good Luck Ford! sorry, but the german cars are HIGHLY over-rated..VW cant keep a lightbulb from burning out, BMWs maintenence is legendary after the free maintenence and reflected in the 90% lease rate, and Mercedes are regularly frowned upon in regards to long term dependability...Audis...you may be a oncer after witnessing depreciation.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aneekr Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 I still find it hard to believe that Ford didn't make the DCT an option instead of standard. To give Ford Motor Company credit where credit is due: for MY 2013, both USA market Ford vehicles that offer the DCT - Fiesta and Focus - offer a traditional manual transmission on all trim levels from base to highline and everything in between. That's great news. Some competitive B and C segment cars in the U.S. don't offer a manual transmission at all except on the base model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aneekr Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 sorry, but the german cars are HIGHLY over-rated..VW cant keep a lightbulb from burning out, BMWs maintenence is legendary after the free maintenence and reflected in the 90% lease rate, and Mercedes are regularly frowned upon in regards to long term dependability...Audis...you may be a oncer after witnessing depreciation.... I'll have to respectfully disagree with you on that one, Deanh. My W220 S55 AMG, which I bought used last year, has understandably required quite a bit more care and feeding than my Ford Fusion which I purchased new. However, very few 2013 MY cars offer the combination of comfort, performance, and refinement that my seven year old S55 does. Despite its flaws (and the W220 S-Class has its fair share), it is overall a remarkable product of German engineering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Despite its flaws (and the W220 S-Class has its fair share), it is overall a remarkable product of German engineering. Trying to justify your purchase even though it has problems....for what you paid for that car, it better be flawless....If I'm gonna spend that much on a car, it better be flawless and not the price to experience German Engineering, which at its best, is complicated to be complicated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 I'll have to respectfully disagree with you on that one, Deanh. My W220 S55 AMG, which I bought used last year, has understandably required quite a bit more care and feeding than my Ford Fusion which I purchased new. However, very few 2013 MY cars offer the combination of comfort, performance, and refinement that my seven year old S55 does. Despite its flaws (and the W220 S-Class has its fair share), it is overall a remarkable product of German engineering. take away the initials AMG and you just have another Mercedes Benz....sorry, Ive had my share of the German "superiority" and will not touch another, my pockets arent deep enough for the maintenence alone let alone cost of ownership....so based on my own personal experience I will stick with OVER-RATED....and that comes from a california resident...home of Image is Everything.....pfffffft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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