Lincoln's Renaissance Needs a Jump?

[RichardJensen]

The first year Focus was recalled more than the Chevy Citation. The MKZ launch is hardly the worst in Ford history.

 

Also, today's newspaper is tomorrow's birdcage liner.

 

How many people today remember the significant delays in the launch of the Edge?

Edited April 2, 2013 by RichardJensen

[akirby]

I think the MKZ launch may be the worst in terms of delays especially with customer orders. Some folks pre-ordered way back in September or earlier and they're just now getting their vehicles.

 

However - even after all of the negativity once they get the vehicles all is forgotten and they're smitten.

 

Provided they don't continue to have quality issues this launch fiasco will be long forgotten in 6 months.

[RichardJensen]

There were similar lengthy delays with the '05 Mustang, due not to launch glitches but the volume of demand. People have vague memories of that, but it's not really stopping anyone from buying a Mustang now.

[jpd80]

With 2.300 sales last month, it's fairly safe to assume that all pre-orders have now been filled

and that next month's sales with full inventory and delivery will be even more impressive..

 

the big snag at the moment is attractive leasing...

 

Let's also not forget how much Cadillac has spent o Alpha to get its 3 and 5 series copies

Last month, ATS sold 3,587 copies while the CTS sold 2,791 but these are the discounted

outgoing Sigma version and GM has advised that the new CTS will be more expensive...

 

So even if Cadillac manages to sell something like 8,000 ATS and CTS combined per month,

it's going to take them longer to pay back their investment money than say, MKZ at 3,000/mth

Edited April 3, 2013 by jpd80

[TBirdStangSkyliner]

"Again. Is there any 'there' there?"

...asked any customers brought to dealers by months of advertising for absent vehicles.

The piece is relatively informative for people that are less likely to follow car news, but there will be no surprises for us.

No telling how things go from here. Even counting the goofs on launches including and since the original Escape, this was the single biggest bed-****ing I've seen regarding a Ford vehicle's intro. Yes, obviously unforseen. Yes, it's sucked to watch this mess for the last 5 months.

I'll say this much: the MKZ already had immense pressure to change perceptions of Lincoln. Now, with its own launch a craptacular disaster in wasted ad money and even more doom/gloom headlines...if the car DOES revitalize the brand, it'll rank among the most impressive vehicles in Ford's history.

Well, probably the second worst launch in Ford history, but no one alive today is concerned about the Edsel debacle.

 

1. This car needed to generate at least a moderate magnitude of positive publicity - the crowd source Super Bowl commercial was roundly mocked across the spectrum of media outlets.

 

2. Regardless of emancipation, Gettysburg and the movie, the first word most people likely think of when they see an actor dressed as Abe is "assassination". When your product provided the setting for the other most famous American assassination, this isn't good. Abe was a man of constant sorrows and nothing about his life and image says personal luxury.

 

3. Mexican Lincoln use to mean the epitome of American automotive achievement against international competition. Now this means USA union avoidance and quality issues that had to be shipped back to UAW land to be inspected.

 

4. Lincoln dealers put serious money into preparing for this car and orders and marketing started while product was continually delayed and customers were left to also flounder.

 

5. The new front fascia appeared on an escape looking otherwise like a Hyundai before these cars could hit the marketplace and establish the new look as something special.

Edited April 3, 2013 by TBirdStangSkyliner

[2b2]

The Lincoln "new model" timeline (in the PPT linked in the "Did Ford show the new Edge" thread) showed the MKS a having had a "major MCE" for 2013, so I'd expect it to be tail-end Charlie on the new vehicle roll-out.

 

just imho, new MKS on sale sometime after May 1st in 2014

[hbalek]

just imho, new MKS on sale sometime after May 1st in 2014

 

I think that is OVERLY optimistic. I can almost guarantee the MKC, MKX and Navigator are due in showrooms in the first half of 2014, probably in that order, well before the MKS. I think the MKS in late 2014 is more realistic, if not later. Ford is on a 7-year cycle and the 2009 MKS arrived in summer of 2008, remember? I bet the MKX debuts in L.A. and MKC via social media sooner. That would leave a Lincoln concept for Detroit and possibly production MKS for New York.

Edited April 3, 2013 by hbalek

[jpd80]

CD4 Taurus/MKS was begun late 2011, it might be ready by Q4 2014 but I doubt that.

It's more likely to be late Q1 or early Q2 2015 as a '16 model

Edited April 3, 2013 by jpd80

[BORG]

I'm thinking the MKC will be in production by Q4 this year, with a rumored reveal date in July. The MKX is probably a Q4 2014 launch. The MKS/Taurus are probably 2016 MY cars so expect a Q2 2015 or later launch.

 

The next MKX may not launch alongside the Ford, as we saw with the MKZ and MKC. Lincoln will need the MKC to absorb some of the lag-time due to a possible production shutdown and they don't want to overlap too closely to the ramp up of the MKC. If you want to see me really angry, botch the 2015 MKX launch around the time I'm due to take delivery of my next MKX. I'm two years away from a new car and I'm already worried about this prospect, easy to feel a little shell-shocked after the MKZ launch. I figure I can go back to the Edge if it comes down to that, not sure I'm interested in the MKC yet based on the concept.

 

I don't think the Navigator is terribly relevant to Lincoln, unless they wish to make it a halo product, but it seems to be an antithesis to where the brand has been heading for years so I'm not sure what roll this vehicles plays in Lincoln's master plan, beyond filling a profitable hole. Essentially, this is a brand within a brand, allot like a Town Car, it doesn't attract customers that would buy the other Lincolns. The Navigator is the only Lincoln I would not (and have never) considered buying.

Edited April 3, 2013 by BORG

[RichardJensen]

I'm thinking the MKC will be in production by Q4 this year, with a rumored reveal date in July.

 

I agree.

 

And I think that new Lincoln launches will follow closer on the heels of companion Ford products, based on the notion that the MKC & MKZ were held up because of significant post Max Wolff alterations and not for any other meaningful reason...

[jpd80]

Look the moment, the MKZ bashes out an unrestricted month an level with something like ATS's 3,500

maybe, just maybe the critics will ease up a bit. There seems to be a lot of bad will towards Lincoln ATM.

People need to get over themselves and move on.

Edited April 3, 2013 by jpd80

[2b2]

I think that is OVERLY optimistic. I can almost guarantee the MKC, MKX and Navigator are due in showrooms in the first half of 2014, probably in that order, well before the MKS. I think the MKS in late 2014 is more realistic, if not later. Ford is on a 7-year cycle and the 2009 MKS arrived in summer of 2008, remember? I bet the MKX debuts in L.A. and MKC via social media sooner. That would leave a Lincoln concept for Detroit and possibly production MKS for New York.

 

since "late 2014" is after May 1st, I'd say I was deliberately imprecise rather than optimistic

ie I'm expecting Q3-4 for the MKS in dealers

 

...thinking production MKC at LAIAS &

MKX debut at NAIAS but also think Detroit could get everything else coming before the following NAIAS ...sorta...

 

half expecting, IF the MKS is really different, that Lincoln will do the Concept/Production NAIAS/NYC split again

&

if I'm right about an early Navigator refresh (THIS year!) followed by the all-new one not long after the nextgen F-150 comes out, we might get a conceptual Navi during the 2014 autoshow season too

[TBirdStangSkyliner]

I'm thinking the MKC will be in production by Q4 this year, with a rumored reveal date in July. The MKX is probably a Q4 2014 launch. The MKS/Taurus are probably 2016 MY cars so expect a Q2 2015 or later launch. ..............

 

I don't think the Navigator is terribly relevant to Lincoln, unless they wish to make it a halo product, but it seems to be an antithesis to where the brand has been heading for years so I'm not sure what roll this vehicles plays in Lincoln's master plan, beyond filling a profitable hole.

 

That would seem to make the MKX a can't miss model. I don't see the MKC being desirable enough to bring in many new Lincoln customers. I don't see it appealing to what is left of the rank and file. The MKS is a big flop in a market that all but Lexus have been flops. I wouldn't buy one share in that investment.

[Extreme4x4]

JPD, I think you are being generous. I would venture to say it will be a very long time before ATS and CTS see a profit. Of course, that depends on how much of the development costs GM slips into other brands. Much like with Zeta, where the vast majority of the costs were charged to Holden.

 

I guess that is why they like multiple brands.

 

I look forward to seeing the production MKC, and seeing it on sale. A completely new product to the brand will be exciting.

[Extreme4x4]

That would seem to make the MKX a can't miss model. I don't see the MKC being desirable enough to bring in many new Lincoln customers. I don't see it appealing to what is left of the rank and file. The MKS is a big flop in a market that all but Lexus have been flops. I wouldn't buy one share in that investment.

 

Did you bother to look anywhere on the internet during the concept MKC period?? I would guess not, based on your comments. The vehicle was universally loved, everywhere.................... even by those who hate Ford and or Lincoln.

 

However, based on your other comments, I don't think you would care what anyone else thinks. You have decided that current and future Lincoln products will fail................... short of the upcoming MKX................ for some odd reason.

[TBirdStangSkyliner]

Did you bother to look anywhere on the internet during the concept MKC period?? I would guess not, based on your comments. The vehicle was universally loved, everywhere.................... even by those who hate Ford and or Lincoln.

 

However, based on your other comments, I don't think you would care what anyone else thinks. You have decided that current and future Lincoln products will fail................... short of the upcoming MKX................ for some odd reason.

 

I don't want to see Lincoln fail. I honestly don't see a product plan that indicates much of a change from what clearly isn't working, though. The MKC is entering a crowded market segment, where customers already have some loyalty, and it is carrying some real brand image baggage. I noticed the reviews becoming more tepid after the first couple of days. I honestly don't think that whatever splash it makes will be sustained for long. I hope I am wrong. The Asians and the Germans aren't going to concede this perceived growth segment easily. There is a difference between initially liking a concept and actually ponying up for the production version.

[BORG]

The 2015 MKX might actually be a Q2/Q3 2014 product since we've been on a Q2 changeover cycle since the 2011 debuted. But Ford and Lincoln typically have a 1-year debut cycle, meaning we'll see the car about 1-year before production. Right now it's hard to imagine an Edge and MKX debut happening at the end of this year and production happening within 6 months. And we haven't seen evidence of mules running around, and certainly no concepts to preview it, not even the Edge at any of the Autoshows so far. So unless Ford is changing strategies, I think the pattern suggests the Edge/MKX are still about 1.5 years away.

 

The MKC is the most important new Lincoln in decades, it will almost certainly be their bestselling vehicle and will do wonders for the health of their image and presence on American roads. Everything hinges on that car, if it's not a success then somebody gets fired. Right now I have hard time believing it won't be. The next MKX is now a bit less critical since it isn't the only popular crossover at Lincoln to pick from.

 

I think the MKZ will be a success in the end, although a very moderate one. I think they made too many compromises and mistakes to accommodate design in a segment that attracts practical people. But I strongly believe Lincoln's future is in the Crossover and I hope they make it their mission to standout there.

Edited April 3, 2013 by BORG

[RichardJensen]

The MKC is the most important new Lincoln in decades, it will almost certainly be their bestselling vehicle and will do wonders for the health of their image and presence on American roads. Everything hinges on that car, if it's not a success then somebody gets fired. Right now I have hard time believing it won't be.

 

I agree with this.

 

The Murano (for one) was already in the Edge sector, and the Kia Sorrento and Hyundai Santa Fe were nosing around in that neighborhood as well (I don't think they were as big as the Edge/Murano then--maybe they had just grown to that size?). The Edge, however, was just about perfect for that segment.

 

Here, the SRX and RDX are already kind of in that space, but I expect the MKC will be as much of a spot-on match for the segment as the Edge.

 

It is a segment that (IMO) is well matched to what Lincoln is aiming for, and it's built on a much better platform than the Lexus model that's also coming out.

Edited April 3, 2013 by RichardJensen

[BORG]

I agree with this.

 

The Murano (for one) was already in the Edge sector, and the Kia Sorrento and Hyundai Santa Fe were nosing around in that neighborhood as well (I don't think they were as big as the Edge/Murano then--maybe they had just grown to that size?). The Edge, however, was just about perfect for that segment.

 

Here, the SRX and RDX are already kind of in that space, but I expect the MKC will be as much of a spot-on match for the segment as the Edge.

 

It is a segment that (IMO) is well matched to what Lincoln is aiming for, and it's built on a much better platform than the Lexus model that's also coming out.

 

The MKC will be the first vehicle from Detroit to execute this segment, which is still important. There is a tremendous opportunity to make Lincoln standout here, although Lexus will probably sell quite a bit more. I'm worried that the timing wont' be favorable for the Lincoln should the Baby-RX debut well ahead of it (which is looking to be the case right now). But I think Lincoln is setting itself up to be the figurehead for the genre, kinda like the Kleenex of compact luxury crossovers. I'm hoping they have a good marketing team to make that a story. Caddy is also working on their answer to the MKC/X3/Q5 etc. which is probably around the corner.

 

Essentially, the MKZ has set the stage nicely for people to pay attention to the MKC. At least I hope it has.

Edited April 3, 2013 by BORG

[jpd80]

I see the MKC as a better choice for a Lincoln compact, being based on the very popular Escape platform will do wonders in

reassuring buyers that this little gem is reliable and low cost when it comes to service.

 

Unlike ATS, the MKC offers much more utility to its buyers and will no doubt result in drawing a much wider audience

who are most likely graduating to their first luxury vehicle and will probably do the trick in changing perception of Lincoln.

[akirby]

The SRX was Caddy's best selling vehicle. The MkC will probably do the same for Lincoln.

[rmc523]

That would seem to make the MKX a can't miss model. I don't see the MKC being desirable enough to bring in many new Lincoln customers. I don't see it appealing to what is left of the rank and file. The MKS is a big flop in a market that all but Lexus have been flops. I wouldn't buy one share in that investment.

I don't want to see Lincoln fail. I honestly don't see a product plan that indicates much of a change from what clearly isn't working, though. The MKC is entering a crowded market segment, where customers already have some loyalty, and it is carrying some real brand image baggage. I noticed the reviews becoming more tepid after the first couple of days. I honestly don't think that whatever splash it makes will be sustained for long. I hope I am wrong. The Asians and the Germans aren't going to concede this perceived growth segment easily. There is a difference between initially liking a concept and actually ponying up for the production version.

 

Quite the opposite opinion from me - I think the MKC is critical to Lincoln's success. Not only that, the MKC is not entering a crowded segment - the compact luxury crossover segment is still relatively new - yes, there are several new or coming entries, but none are really established yet (at least I don't think?)

[2b2]

The 2015 MKX might actually be a Q2/Q3 2014 product since we've been on a Q2 changeover cycle since the 2011 debuted. But Ford and Lincoln typically have a 1-year debut cycle, meaning we'll see the car about 1-year before production. Right now it's hard to imagine an Edge and MKX debut happening at the end of this year and production happening within 6 months. And we haven't seen evidence of mules running around, and certainly no concepts to preview it, not even the Edge at any of the Autoshows so far. So unless Ford is changing strategies, I think the pattern suggests the Edge/MKX are still about 1.5 years away...

 

I'm not at all sure if the next X is a CD4.2 nextgen or a heavy refresh on the current platform.

From what I've seen it comes out May-June 2014

[RichardJensen]

The MKC will be the first vehicle from Detroit to execute this segment, which is still important.

 

Lexus will probably sell quite a bit more.

 

? SRX. It's basically the same vehicle

 

I doubt the Lexus version sells more.

 

Going in the opposite direction, compare sales of the 3-Series & C-Class with the 5-Series & E-Class.

[jpd80]

I'm not at all sure if the next X is a CD4.2 nextgen or a heavy refresh on the current platform.

From what I've seen it comes out May-June 2014

It's on CD4, mules have been running around for a while but not in your location....