RangerM Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 (edited) If you think I'm trying to argue that Tesla drivers can't afford electricity, you're missing the point. If you think that's what I'M arguing you're doing the same. The government has no business forcing the average citizen who can't afford a $40k+ runabout to subsidize rich(er) peoples' transportation costs. THAT's what I'm arguing. Edited April 12, 2013 by RangerM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang_sallad Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 If you think that's what I'M arguing you're doing the same. The government has no business forcing the average citizen who can't afford a $40k+ runabout to subsidize rich(er) peoples' transportation costs. THAT's what I'm arguing. Okay, that's fair, but I'm pretty sure the government would argue that it's doing this in the hopes that it will lead to more affordable and cleaner transportation for everyone in the future, and that subsidizing the development of this new technology will bring these benefits to everyone sooner. Sure you could leave it up to the free market, but some times if you give something a little nudge over the next hill, it'll help it take off under its own power sooner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted April 13, 2013 Author Share Posted April 13, 2013 Remember, right now Tesla is a luxury car company. And will remain so with Model X. Think MB, BMW, and Porsche when discussing Tesla. In fact, Tesla is doing an EV or parts of one for MB. A Model S is a Panamera with electric motors. So far in 2013 Tesla has sold more EV's than anyone else and more LARGE luxury cars than anyone, even MB and BMW. So Tesla is targeting a high end customer who probably decided to buy a Model S rather than an MB or Panamera. And some charging stations in sunny, warm area are solar powered. Tesla is also revolutionary when it comes to dealership franchise rules in that Tesla sells directly thru its own stores. And aggressively going to court in some states to overturn franchise rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 Remember, right now Tesla is a luxury car company. And will remain so with Model X. Think MB, BMW, and Porsche when discussing Tesla. In fact, Tesla is doing an EV or parts of one for MB. A Model S is a Panamera with electric motors. So far in 2013 Tesla has sold more EV's than anyone else and more LARGE luxury cars than anyone, even MB and BMW. So Tesla is targeting a high end customer who probably decided to buy a Model S rather than an MB or Panamera. And some charging stations in sunny, warm area are solar powered. Tesla is also revolutionary when it comes to dealership franchise rules in that Tesla sells directly thru its own stores. And aggressively going to court in some states to overturn franchise rules. They're also revolutionary at lying to report fake profits. And you think we drink the kool-aid? You're swimming in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 Has the Model S outsold the XTS? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomcat68 Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 (edited) Has the Model S outsold the XTS? No, but it probably outsells the MKS. Edited April 13, 2013 by atomcat68 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 Has the Model S outsold the XTS? XTS to date - 7130 Model-S to date - "more than 4750" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted April 13, 2013 Author Share Posted April 13, 2013 No, but it probably outsells the MKS. The Model S probably outsells the MKS, MKT, and Navigator altogether. Not bad for a vehicle that is mostly sold so far this year with most expensive, longest range batteries and goes for North of $100,000 with a few options. While Tesla is a very risky investment, those shorting Tesla stock have so far lost their shirts. Again, nice to see a start up American auto company do well and maybe have a future. In auto business who knows though as even established players have brushes with death every generation it seems. With EV's, I hope to see some more start ups and maybe a couple will be around for awhile. Tesla's beauty so far is that they are EV's from ground up and not ICE vehicles stuffed with batteries in trunk. And before one starts with tax subsidy crap, Ford got more DOE loans than anyone, and Senator Debbie Stabenow of MI is trying to get more DOE loans for Ford and other domestics. MAP and LAP all retooled with government loans. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 (edited) The Model S probably outsells the MKS, MKT, and Navigator altogether. MKS + MKT + Navigator = 6075 to date. So either Tesla put out one heck of a hedge earlier with their "more than 4750 sales" remark... or once again you're completely wrong with your antipathy toward Lincoln. Edited April 13, 2013 by papilgee4evaeva Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted April 13, 2013 Author Share Posted April 13, 2013 MKS + MKT + Navigator = 6075 to date. So either Tesla put out one heck of a hedge earlier with their "more than 4750 sales" remark... or once again you're completely wrong. First, I said "probably." Second, believe last month 800 MKS were sold, about 600 MKT, and 600 Navigators. And rest of luxury market was up double digits. I don't believe February was any better month for those three unless Lincoln was throwing lots of money on hood to get rid of those three dogs. Tesla is selling about 500/week equalling above. Tesla's quarter is different so I don't know if Tesla was up to 500/week all of last quarter. Anyway, for a $100,000 LUXURY EV, Tesla selling at about 500/week is pretty damn good and not that far off over half of Lincoln's current lineup sales rate. Tesla will not even start filling rest of world orders until later in year. As of now anyway, every Tesla made has a buyer and last I heard about 500/week which equates to over 2,000/month this quarter anyway. And MKS, MKT, Navigator sales are not going up, but trending down every month unless Lincoln really starts pushing them with ever more incentives. Again, not bad for a start up company selling one vehicle only right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 There's that 2000/month figure again. Anyway, you're gonna have to find something definite that says that Tesla sold X models within any one month. All I've found is that they moved "more than 4750" during Q1, but they've never released discrete numbers like everyone else has Furthermore, since Tesla released their estimate for Q1, I compared it to Lincoln's numbers for Q1. In the name of being consistent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted April 13, 2013 Author Share Posted April 13, 2013 From Motley Fool. To me, an EV makes lots of sense in a warm climate state, but in a cold climate state not so much. I can see why Californians love their EV's and hybrid/plug-ins. Ditto for other warm weather states and states where the average price of a house is high six figures and gas is much more expensive than average. "As a maker of electric cars and only electric cars, Tesla is not just waiting for fast charging stations to appear. In a partnership with SolarCity (NASDAQ: SCTY), Tesla is working to build out a network of Tesla Supercharging stations. The stations are designed to be powered by SolarCity’s solar panels and will provide free energy to Tesla owners. Since Tesla CEO Elon Musk is also the chairman of SolarCity the partnership is a natural fit for integration among the Musk companies. Right now, the stations are rolling out in California and the East Coast, where the partnership is working on developing an electric car corridor. Together, the companies hope to have 100 supercharging stations operational by 2015, in locations across all of North America. The partnership benefits both Tesla and SolarCity in ways beyond short-term finances. SolarCity’s system of installing solar panels and selling the electricity to the building owner needs clients to continue expanding its business. With each client it gets, SolarCity gets another stream of revenue that could last for decades, thereby providing the company with additional funds for growth. On Tesla’s side, the automaker gets a powerful tool to fight range anxiety and the ability to advertise its name without buying into standard forms of advertising media. But while 100 Supercharging stations is a great start, it's nowhere near the number of gas stations across North America. Ultimately, it will take far longer for charging stations to grow in numbers sufficient to compete with gas stations. This owes largely to a vicious cycle: Few electric cars means little demand for charging stations, and a lack of such stations steers people away from electric cars. That cycle's being broken now, as governments encourage the building of charging stations, and private companies such as Tesla and SolarCity build their own Superchargers.' I know here in MI I'm impressed with all the new charging stations I see popping up like weeds all over. Almost every big public parking lot in downtown Detroit and Ann Arbor has many charging stations scattered around. Good to see even if cold temps and batteries are not welcome friends, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 blah...blah....blah....Porsche.....blah....blah.....blah.....Tesla.....blah....blah....blah....Metro Detroit....blah....blah.....blah.....Porsche.......blah....blah....blah.....Tesla....blah...blah.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted April 14, 2013 Share Posted April 14, 2013 (edited) From Motley Fool. To me, an EV makes lots of sense in a warm climate state, but in a cold climate state not so much. I can see why Californians love their EV's and hybrid/plug-ins. Ditto for other warm weather states and states where the average price of a house is high six figures and gas is much more expensive than average. Which is probably why diesels make a lot of sense in Europe where the weather in the North s can get quite cool in the winter months.. Edited April 14, 2013 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted April 14, 2013 Share Posted April 14, 2013 No more posts, FB. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang_sallad Posted April 16, 2013 Share Posted April 16, 2013 No more posts, FB. What the HELL was wrong with his last two posts? Do you know how to have a conversation? Let alone host one? Obviously I don't need to come here, but this is just too ridiculous to not say anything. Not a SOUL in the industry would claim that Lincoln is looking better than Tesla right now. I agree that Ford is right in investing in its core products first and foremost, but that doesn't negate the fact that Lincoln as a standalone brand has less promise than a startup selling exclusively electric vehicles with all the inherent compromises. And yet for some reason, this guy says anything at all and you freak out and put a halt to the conversation. Sure tell me to go start my own forum. This is a very nice play pen you've built for yourself here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted April 16, 2013 Share Posted April 16, 2013 (edited) What the HELL was wrong with his last two posts? He hit his maximum of five posts per thread. FB has certain hobbyhorses that he likes to ride. They include skepticism about Lincoln, accusing the rest of the board of cheering for GM's failure, claiming that he is the voice of reason on all subjects, referring to "Metro Detroit", talking about club racing and his Porsche, and talking up Elon Musk and Tesla. Few if any of his posts touch on anything else. To be quite honest, his repeated characterizations of the rest of the forum would probably get him banned from most places (look at the title of the thread, for crying out loud!!). We restrict his post count instead. He gets five posts per thread. Edited April 16, 2013 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted April 16, 2013 Share Posted April 16, 2013 (edited) Do you know how to have a conversation? this is just too ridiculous to not say anything One does not have conversations with FB. And, FWIW, you may want to hold off accusing people of squashing dialogue. Nick and I have banned one person (apart from spammers) over the past three years. One person who has managed to get himself banned from just about every other automotive forum on the internet. Rather than berate us for disciplining members in public, perhaps you should take a moment and appreciate the fact that we do not make them vanish in private actions. Edited April 16, 2013 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted April 16, 2013 Share Posted April 16, 2013 Nick and I have banned one person (apart from spammers) over the past three years. Two as of today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted April 16, 2013 Share Posted April 16, 2013 I didn't count anyone from the employee section because that place is a circus. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonM Posted April 19, 2013 Share Posted April 19, 2013 Tesla Loses Court Battle With Former Exec, Faces Further Class Action http://green.autoblog.com/2013/04/17/tesla-loses-court-battle-former-exec-faces-further-class-action/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aneekr Posted April 19, 2013 Share Posted April 19, 2013 And, FWIW, you may want to hold off accusing people of squashing dialogue. Rather than berate us for disciplining members in public, perhaps you should take a moment and appreciate the fact that we do not make them vanish in private actions. The Blue Oval Forums team is very generous and gracious in this regard. The fact that yours truly, crabby old dood aneekr, is still a member of the Blue Oval Forums community is testament. Anyway, back to the topic of Tesla Motors: The Society of Automotive Engineers recently held an interview with Tesla CTO JB Straubel. It included an excellent discussion of battery chemistries and form factors, DC fast charging standards (or lack thereof), and collaboration with traditional automotive OEMs. A transcript can be viewed here: http://www.sae.org/mags/aei/indan/11923 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted April 19, 2013 Share Posted April 19, 2013 My thought on Tesla is kind of this: Elon Musk basically stumbled into PayPal. It was a little subunit of a much broader, much more grandiose financial services vision. There may be a similar dynamic at play here: Tesla the car company may be a non-starter, but Tesla the battery & motor developer may be a valuable thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted April 19, 2013 Share Posted April 19, 2013 The fact that yours truly, crabby old dood aneekr, is still a member of the Blue Oval Forums community is testament. Let it also be known that I appreciate that crabby old dood aneekr puts up with my hectoring and lecturing and occasional pedantry. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted April 20, 2013 Share Posted April 20, 2013 Let it also be known that I appreciate that crabby old dood aneekr puts up with my hectoring and lecturing and occasional pedantry. I along with others here can appreciate and respect aneekr's point of view because it is presented with perspective in a logical and constructive way. That's not to say I don't appreciate Zan's posts or Ford buyers, no doubt they have passion for certain subjects but perspective is also important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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