woodrowwilson Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 DItto the Taurus/MKS. Might want to double check this statement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 (edited) Edge and MKX are not differentiated enough. They share the same doors and roofline. That is not the case with the Fusion and MKZ or the Taurus/MKS. They look totally different. Edited August 23, 2013 by akirby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 Are you saying the MKX isn't a tarted-up Edge...obviously? Same hardware, almost identical profile, and so obviously related that posters as well as journalists all remarked on it...still do. DItto the Taurus/MKS. I don't think anyone has argued the MKX and Edge are differentiated enough as-is. Why do you pick a model that is about to be replaced (you know, the one the originally debuted back in 2007 and has yet to have a full redesign) and clearly shares too much with its Ford counterpart as the basis for your argument? Same argument stands with the Taurus/MKS - it too is about to be replaced, and I'd argue they are fairly well differentiated anyway. Plus Taurus came after MKS, so you can argue it copied the MKS if you think they're too similar. I don't think any of us are arguing whether or not much of the current crop of Lincoln vehicles need upgrades - they do, but we're not choosing to look at the current/old vehicles like MKX, and instead are looking at vehicles like the MKZ (which was largely completed before the new design teams were set in place), and the coming MKC as evidence as to where the brand will be going. That said, Lincoln obviously has earned the reputation of having rebadged products. For vehicles such as the MKX or last-gen MKZ, it is much more understandable - not necessarily right, but understandable - as to why a journalist may go into a product review with a biased "tarted up Ford" view. But when you park the new Fusion and MKZ next to each other and see they look nothing alike, you can tell much more of an effort went into differentiating the two than before, IMO, rendering a predetermined/biased viewpoint inexcusable despite them riding on the same platform. As others have said, many other companies use the same exact approach but do not get the same treatment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZanatWork Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 The Taurus/MKS are mainly differentiated by the fact that the Taurus can move some metal while the MKS struggles to average 1000 sales per month. Edge and MKX are not differentiated enough. They share the same doors and roofline. That is not the case with the Fusion and MKZ or the Taurus/MKS. They look totally different. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZanatWork Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 Yes, other companies use the same approach, and (contrary to paranoids here wailing about agendas), other companies get their shared components mentioned, too. But Lincoln isn't doing the job they need to as far as differentiation. Like I've said a dozen or more times on here, I know it can't all change "at once"...but some of us have heard different excuses for this exact problem for many years. Is the MKZ a step in the right direction? A step, yes. The MKS, MKX, and Navi? No. The MKT? Let's face it, aside from a few with strange affection for it (myself included), it's a swing and a miss. I don't think anyone has argued the MKX and Edge are differentiated enough as-is. Why do you pick a model that is about to be replaced (you know, the one the originally debuted back in 2007 and has yet to have a full redesign) and clearly shares too much with its Ford counterpart as the basis for your argument? Same argument stands with the Taurus/MKS - it too is about to be replaced, and I'd argue they are fairly well differentiated anyway. Plus Taurus came after MKS, so you can argue it copied the MKS if you think they're too similar. I don't think any of us are arguing whether or not much of the current crop of Lincoln vehicles need upgrades - they do, but we're not choosing to look at the current/old vehicles like MKX, and instead are looking at vehicles like the MKZ (which was largely completed before the new design teams were set in place), and the coming MKC as evidence as to where the brand will be going. That said, Lincoln obviously has earned the reputation of having rebadged products. For vehicles such as the MKX or last-gen MKZ, it is much more understandable - not necessarily right, but understandable - as to why a journalist may go into a product review with a biased "tarted up Ford" view. But when you park the new Fusion and MKZ next to each other and see they look nothing alike, you can tell much more of an effort went into differentiating the two than before, IMO, rendering a predetermined/biased viewpoint inexcusable despite them riding on the same platform. As others have said, many other companies use the same exact approach but do not get the same treatment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 Just as I'm pretty certain my extensive studies in Communications (a shared major) could make that an interesting conversation. If you knew as much as you claim to know about linguistics, you would know that linguistics is not the same thing as CS. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 obvious rebadges Ah yes, the 'no true Scotsman' approach to debate. An old standby for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 Yes, other companies use the same approach, and (contrary to paranoids here wailing about agendas), other companies get their shared components mentioned, too. But Lincoln isn't doing the job they need to as far as differentiation. Like I've said a dozen or more times on here, I know it can't all change "at once"...but some of us have heard different excuses for this exact problem for many years. Is the MKZ a step in the right direction? A step, yes. The MKS, MKX, and Navi? No. The MKT? Let's face it, aside from a few with strange affection for it (myself included), it's a swing and a miss. not sure I agree with you there Zan, I see more resemblence between a couple of Toyotas and Lexi than I do the Fusion and the Z....starting to see a few more Z's on the road as of late...very polarizing, and IMO more so than the Fusion...remember, the Z is basically the first MAJOR step, prior to this the Lincolns were stepping stones, differentiation will slowly become more apparent... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 Yes, other companies use the same approach, and (contrary to paranoids here wailing about agendas), other companies get their shared components mentioned, too. But Lincoln isn't doing the job they need to as far as differentiation. Like I've said a dozen or more times on here, I know it can't all change "at once"...but some of us have heard different excuses for this exact problem for many years. Is the MKZ a step in the right direction? A step, yes. The MKS, MKX, and Navi? No. The MKT? Let's face it, aside from a few with strange affection for it (myself included), it's a swing and a miss. In other words you're going to bury your head in the sand and ignore all of the new designs that are totally differentiated and pull out the old designs to prove your point? How convenient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZanatWork Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 Ah, yes, the "inferred condescension" coupled with familiarity, the RJ special. Ah yes, the 'no true Scotsman' approach to debate. An old standby for you. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZanatWork Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 New designs? The MKS and MKT are just refreshes, the Navi has been a sad joke for this entire generation, the MKC isn't anywhere near showrooms yet, and the MKZ is a "new design" whose Fusion relationship has gotten a huge amount of ink/bandwidth.You really aren't good at this. In other words you're going to bury your head in the sand and ignore all of the new designs that are totally differentiated and pull out the old designs to prove your point? How convenient. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZanatWork Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 Toyota gets called out plenty, particularly for the ES. The difference is, though, Lexus has vehicles in their showroom that don't have Toyota equivalents...GS, LS, and IS in this market. A blanket statement can be made for Lincoln's lineup being all "tarted up Fords" to an extent...but Lexus, Audi, Infiniti? They all have vehicles not found re-worked in Toyota, VW, and Nissan dealerships.It's an important difference, yet utterly lost on some around here. not sure I agree with you there Zan, I see more resemblence between a couple of Toyotas and Lexi than I do the Fusion and the Z....starting to see a few more Z's on the road as of late...very polarizing, and IMO more so than the Fusion...remember, the Z is basically the first MAJOR step, prior to this the Lincolns were stepping stones, differentiation will slowly become more apparent... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 New designs? The MKS and MKT are just refreshes, the Navi has been a sad joke for this entire generation, the MKC isn't anywhere near showrooms yet, and the MKZ is a "new design" whose Fusion relationship has gotten a huge amount of ink/bandwidth. You really aren't good at this. Which of those vehicles was designed completely by the new Lincoln design staff? You really aren't good at this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 Ah, yes, the "inferred condescension" coupled with familiarity, the RJ special. You are one of this forum's masters at moving the goalposts, or the 'no true Scotsman' informal fallacy. You also bow before no one when it comes to *implied* condescension on this forum, viz. the very next thing you wrote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 In short, I'm growing tired of your ad hominems, and am thinking about discussing your status here with the other mods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZanatWork Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 Be sure to mention that your interest is purely financial, as that's what it's "all about", so they are aware of the mentality so very determined to critique mine for the past year.I'd also ask the admin to note how many "...liked the post you made..." notifications I get whenever I commit the unforgivable in of being honest about Lincoln. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 so they are aware of the mentality so very determined to critique mine for the past year. They know who I am. They know who you are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZanatWork Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 Golly, if I'm half the rogue you try to paint me to be, they should. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 I know I don't have a horse in this race, but it's kinda fun... I'd also ask the admin to note how many "...liked the post you made..." notifications I get whenever I commit the unforgivable in of being honest about Lincoln. And also ask them to note how many of those likes come from other posters who have the same mentality of bashing for the sake of bashing. I could probably name less than a handful of posters who account for 95%+ of those likes, and I would guess many are on similarly thin ice... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 Golly, if I'm half the rogue you try to paint me to be, they should. Remember that time I pointed out how often you insulted people on the board, as compared to how often you were insulted? I'm not going to do that again. That your conduct has been pointed out to you is sufficient notice for taking any further action if we continue to find your conduct objectionable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 (edited) New designs? The MKS and MKT are just refreshes, the Navi has been a sad joke for this entire generation, the MKC isn't anywhere near showrooms yet, and the MKZ is a "new design" whose Fusion relationship has gotten a huge amount of ink/bandwidth. You really aren't good at this. as far as the relationship gos with the fusion getting press, I would say Ive yet to see one that holds water, its just scribes nature to complain rather than gush, unless unless its a BMW of course...they get hall passes....the Escape knockoff is coming, and I will re-state, the T, S, and X were/ are and have never been anything else but stopgaps...product is coming, its slow, but expect differentiation to become more apparent. And dare I say it, witout being informed, 99 % of consumers would NOT know the Z and Fusion are even remotely related...its just been overplayed by self professed Automotive experts.... Edited August 23, 2013 by Deanh 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted August 23, 2013 Author Share Posted August 23, 2013 The Taurus/MKS are mainly differentiated by the fact that the Taurus can move some metal while the MKS struggles to average 1000 sales per month. Straw man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 The Taurus/MKS are mainly differentiated by the fact that the Taurus can move some metal while the MKS struggles to average 1000 sales per month. different perspective from my standpoint, I dont REMEMBER the last taurus I sold to anything other than a Fleet company or a municipality, which , dare I say it, leads me to say it wouldnt surprize me if the MKS sold more cars RETAIL than its Taurus sibling.....hmmmm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 I actually see quite a few Taruses (Taurii?) around here. These are actual retail sales...there are no fleet cars here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 I actually see quite a few Taruses (Taurii?) around here. These are actual retail sales...there are no fleet cars here. pre-madonna Californians..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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