zipnzap Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Is it feasible? Could it work? This could be a solution for better fuel economy compared to gas V10's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 (edited) Currently, Ford is the only truck maker providing Medium Duty Trucks with a gasoline engine option (CNG prep). The big change in next years MDs is the replacement of the Cummins diesel with Ford's own 6.7 V8 diesel..LINK While gasoline truck is incremental sales, the diesel engine is where the real market is. Ecoboost is intended for mainly part time power applications where the engine can economize when not running hard, the likelihood of that is far less in HD trucks and using an already amortized large capacity V10 probably makes sense. No doubt, Ford gets feed back from customers and their changing needs but they don't seem to be in a hurry to change. Edited May 11, 2014 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 (edited) Ecoboost is not the answer to Medium truck lines....stone cold reliable V10 power that works day in, day out with no fuss and no muss.....hit the key and go.....turbos add cost and complexity and the shining example that Ford has in medium is that V10 that is reliable as the day is long....and it is cheap to buy and cheap to maintain. While I would love to see Ecoboost in the E-Series chassis line...I doubt it will happen with Transit cut-a-way already having that market... Edited May 11, 2014 by twintornados Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arizona Mike Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 "I doubt it will happen with Transit cut-a-way already having that market..." The Transit cutaway and chassis cab are gettin the V6 non-turbo gasser or the diesel. No Ecoboost 3.5 for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 "I doubt it will happen with Transit cut-a-way already having that market..." The Transit cutaway and chassis cab are gettin the V6 non-turbo gasser or the diesel. No Ecoboost 3.5 for it. Ok....so, there is your answer, Ford wont put Ecoboost in medium trucks then... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 (edited) Transit Cutaway is not a Medium duty Truck. E350/450 Cutaway is not a Medium duty Truck. Medium Duty trucks are F650 and F750 ... Big Suckers. Edited May 12, 2014 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Transit Cutaway is not a Medium duty Truck. E350/450 Cutaway is not a Medium duty Truck. Medium Duty trucks are F650 and F750 ... Big Suckers. Well, again...there is your answer....if Ford figures Ecoboost is not the answer in those "top end" of the light duty line trucks...what leads you to believe they would install it in the next higher class vehicle? To amortize out the costs...an Ecoboost V8 has to be made in larger numbers than that of what is currently sold visa vie the current F-650/750 sales numbers....and right now, there would be nothing else in the Ford line that could benefit from an Ecoboost V8.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Ecoboost is intended for mainly part time power applications where the engine can economize when not running hard, ... Ecoboost is not the answer to Medium truck lines....stone cold reliable V10 power that works day in, day out with no fuss and no muss.....hit the key and go..... turbos add cost and complexity ... Well said by both, but I think cost is really the biggest issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zipnzap Posted May 12, 2014 Author Share Posted May 12, 2014 Currently, Ford is the only truck maker providing Medium Duty Trucks with a gasoline engine option (CNG prep). The big change in next years MDs is the replacement of the Cummins diesel with Ford's own 6.7 V8 diesel..LINK While gasoline truck is incremental sales, the diesel engine is where the real market is. Ecoboost is intended for mainly part time power applications where the engine can economize when not running hard, the likelihood of that is far less in HD trucks and using an already amortized large capacity V10 probably makes sense. No doubt, Ford gets feed back from customers and their changing needs but they don't seem to be in a hurry to change. Ecoboost is not the answer to Medium truck lines....stone cold reliable V10 power that works day in, day out with no fuss and no muss.....hit the key and go.....turbos add cost and complexity and the shining example that Ford has in medium is that V10 that is reliable as the day is long....and it is cheap to buy and cheap to maintain. While I would love to see Ecoboost in the E-Series chassis line...I doubt it will happen with Transit cut-a-way already having that market... Ok....so, there is your answer, Ford wont put Ecoboost in medium trucks then... Well, again...there is your answer....if Ford figures Ecoboost is not the answer in those "top end" of the light duty line trucks...what leads you to believe they would install it in the next higher class vehicle? To amortize out the costs...an Ecoboost V8 has to be made in larger numbers than that of what is currently sold visa vie the current F-650/750 sales numbers....and right now, there would be nothing else in the Ford line that could benefit from an Ecoboost V8.... So what about the replacements for the E-350/450? What's going to replace the V10 in those? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mackintire Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 So what about the replacements for the E-350/450? What's going to replace the V10 in those? The 6.2 liter or a slightly longer stroked variant (up to 6.6 liter) after DI has been introduced along with a transmissions with 8+ gears to back it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 (edited) So what about the replacements for the E-350/450? What's going to replace the V10 in those? E-350 replacement is already here. Transit 350 cutaway with I5 diesel has more torque than the E-350 cutaway with 5.4 V8. E-450 replacement is probably still on the drawing board. Personally, I don't really see much point to it if it ends up looking like a junior F-650... Ford would be better off just moving everyone over to F-450. Same form factor. Edited May 12, 2014 by bzcat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Same form factor. Why are you still saying this? The F450 is 6" longer than the F650/750, much less a smaller E450 replacement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lfeg Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Agreed on the E350 cutaway someday being replaced by a Transit version. When that happens, the E450 may just fade away, as the costs to come up with a replacement may not be justified by the volumes of that niche market. I am just going to wait around and see what happens. There also look to be big changes coming to the class 5 and up market over the next 10 years. Just saw a design study by one of the big players in class 8 saying that COE might be coming back due to potential for wheelbase reduction and weight savings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lfeg Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 And on Ecoboost V8s for mediums, due to the duty cycle that mediums see, engines typically have conservative bearing loadings (rod and crank) for durability and long life. A V8 with pressure charging at the levels used in Ecoboost, the bearings would have to be larger diameter and/or wider to have comparable ratings when on boost. Not easy to do unless you are starting with a clean sheet design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 I disagree on the E450. I think that a significant percentage of E-Series volume is the E450, given that it doesn't have an analogue from any other manufacturer. You can't get 20k GCWR in a more compact configuration. And I'm going to guess that the E450 has the lowest load floor of any 20k GCWR vehicle as well--given that its load floor is considerably lower than the F450. I expect there's enough potential for commonality between the E450 and F650/750 to justify a unique cab/greenhouse shared by all three based on the high volume of the E450. I don't think you can adapt the Transit greenhouse to the E450/F650/750. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 And on Ecoboost V8s for mediums, due to the duty cycle that mediums see, engines typically have conservative bearing loadings (rod and crank) for durability and long life. A V8 with pressure charging at the levels used in Ecoboost, the bearings would have to be larger diameter and/or wider to have comparable ratings when on boost. Not easy to do unless you are starting with a clean sheet design. considering that the 5.0 is already plumbed for two hairdryers, and in the Mustangs case , there are blown iterations using stock components pegging 550hp plus, i dont think the durability of the bottom end would exhibit any weakness's.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 considering that the 5.0 is already plumbed for two hairdryers, and in the Mustangs case , there are blown iterations using stock components pegging 550hp plus, i dont think the durability of the bottom end would exhibit any weakness's.... And OHC V8's from Ford have a history of having a VERY robust bottom end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 (edited) At the moment, Ford still uses the older 2V version of the V10 and 5-speed auto in E Series, it would be logical to assume a switch to the 6.8 3V and 6-speed auto that's being used in medium Duty. 6.8 2V - 305@4,250 RPM 420 lb-ft@3,250 RPM 6.8 3V - 362 @ 4750 RPM 457 lb-ft @ 3250 RPM Keep in mind that SD and MD power and torque figures are rated more conservatively. It's less costly to just simply use an existing engine line than to develop something new.. Edited May 12, 2014 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 At the moment, Ford still uses the older 2V version of the V10 and 5-speed auto in E Series, it would be logical to assume a switch to the 6.8 3V and 6-speed auto that's being used in medium Duty. 6.8 2V - 305@4,250 RPM 420 lb-ft@3,250 RPM 6.8 3V - 362 @ 4750 RPM 457 lb-ft @ 3250 RPM Keep in mind that SD and MD power and torque figures are rated more conservatively. It's less costly to just simply use an existing engine line than to develop something new.. except that the 6.8 is on borrowed time so something new HAS to be developed....and Im betting its in the books... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 (edited) except that the 6.8 is on borrowed time so something new HAS to be developed....and Im betting its in the books... Yeah i hear that but in the mean time it's an easy grab that costs them peanuts. The acid test will be if the new MDs are engineered with the V10, if that's done I doubt Ford will be in any hurry.. Diesel is the bulk of the 2000/mth business but the gasoline V10 (CNG) is also good incremental production. Edited May 12, 2014 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 At the moment, Ford still uses the older 2V version of the V10 and 5-speed auto in E Series, it would be logical to assume a switch to the 6.8 3V and 6-speed auto that's being used in medium Duty. Based on 2+ year old data (and totally illogical IMHO) the future E350/450 will NOT get the 3V engine ! It will get the 6R transmission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 except that the 6.8 is on borrowed time so something new HAS to be developed....and Im betting its in the books...As of 2 years ago, there was nothing ! I need to take a trip to Dearborn after 5PM and offer up some brew pop ! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 I need to take a trip to Dearborn after 5PM and offer up some brew pop ! Yes, yes you do. And bring the dirty details back here! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lfeg Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 I do not see Ford (or GM for that matter) designing a new engine exclusively for medium truck service. What may happen is that someone will work with an engine builder (joint venture or some other arrangement) to develop a medium truck gasoline/natural gas engine. This may result in a "private branded" engine or exclusive use agreement for a certain period. For one of the automakers to go it alone I do not see the potential sales justifying the developement cost. And did anyone else see the latest "future truck" study by a group consisting of Walmart, Peterbilt, Roush, Great Dane, and Capstone? It resulted in a class 8 prototype powered by a series hybrid with a microturbine and batteries Turbine engines can be sized for the dutycycle and run at a constant speed for highest efficiency and use a wide range of fuels (fuel neutral). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 I think an Ecoboost type engine would be inappropriate for a medium truck duty cycle. Such an engine would have to relay on a high level of boost constantly, which would likely cause economy and durability issues. Not the right tool for the job. There is a true medium duty dedicated gaseous fuel engine currently under development. It is based on the old GM 7.4/8.1 family. Iron block and heads, capable of 10L+ displacement. Freightliner is marketing a propane 8.0L version in a medium duty. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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