akirby Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Similar 8 speed transmissions have been in use for quite some time. This is not cutting edge technology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 You are correcct, but I think this tranny is supposed to form the basis of the 10R200 (I made that name up) that will go in the Super Duty. I think it will be a 14R300 to handle the new ecoboosted V-16........ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coopny Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Similar 8 speed transmissions have been in use for quite some time. This is not cutting edge technology. Similar and the same are different things, and it's also application dependent. The transverse V6 in certain Accords, TLs, MDXs, and Honda SUVs went really bad, especially in the MDX where the same powertrain was paried with a more poweful engine (subjecting the transmission to further strain). Same thing happened in the 90s with the Subaru SVX. It's hard to predict every possible failure that may happen. In the case of the Acura MDX, a lot of people failed just outside of the 50,000 mile warranty. In the case of someone I know, the entire transmission gave out at 51,000. The repair was done for goodwill before Honda formally extended the repairs on the transmission to 8yr/80K. Even if the technology of adding more gears in and of itself is not new, I'd rather wait so Ford can see how it does and learn from their mistakes. No matter how much you try to test it before you sell it, there's no way to discover all the problems before you start selling it. Same thing happens with TSBs for cars when they're redesigned for a year (tons of issues the first year, less the second and so on), except if it's a smaller problem you can repair the part if an issue occurs. If an entire transmission has an unforseen design flaw (e.g. it turning out that it was too small for the MDX, but even generally it ended up leaking over time worse and worse in vehicles that had it), it's not something you can just fix with a TSB. You can extend the warranty and fix it when it breaks, but it's a problem that will plague the car for the rest of its life, including when you end your coverage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 I recall reading about problems with the 5R55W transmissions in the Explorer/Mountaineer/Aviator between '02 and '05, but not in subsequent models. Regarding adding gears, I don't remember hearing anything about the 6R60 introduced in the same vehicles above in '06. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 I don't disagree. Just look at the problems they had with the 6F35. I just don't think this is as big of a technology jump as the early CVTs or DCTs so they are less likely to have major problems because of the new technology. But any new product can have teething issues or major flaws (like the early 2.0 and 1.6 EB engines with head cooling). If you plan to keep the vehicle for a long time than I would agree you might want to wait. But if this is going into the F150 you can be sure Ford will scrutinize it and test it to death. It's too risky to screw it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 Lets not forget about the AXOD and its variants over the years...what a POS that thing was....they used to grenade every 60K miles or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 I think 'oldwizard' is right, this thing doesn't have much more of a gear spread over current 6 speeds. I am sure it is intended for light duty applications only. I hope it really adds to drivability, and is not just a scheme to maximize EPA MPG ratings. If the software isn't right it's going to be busy. Really busy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 If you assume that 1st and 6th gear are already optimized for takeoff and cruising, what good would it do to make them lower or higher? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 (edited) One comment that does disturb me was that the increase in gear ratio did not appear to increase the gear spread, which is the most common reason or adding gears. Software/calibration are going to be key to customer acceptance of this transmission. While I admit to not having driven anything with more than 6 speed, I would think 8 - 10 speed transmissions would "feel" "busy". with lots of shifting on tip-in/tip-out. Clearly this transmission is designed to operate for long periods in 8th, 9th or 10th gear as opposed to most automatics that want to get you to the "top" gear as quickly as possible. Not necessarily. When transmission made the leap from 5 or 6 speed to 8 speeds, the gear ratio spread didn't increase significantly, if at all. A properly programed 8 speed (and I suppose 9 or 10 speed) won't feel "busy" at all. If you assume that 1st and 6th gear are already optimized for takeoff and cruising, what good would it do to make them lower or higher? Correct... more gears doesn't usually result in significantly higher or lower 1st or last ratios. It just add more steps in between to optimize fuel consumption and performance. Edited January 6, 2015 by bzcat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 I think 'oldwizard' is right, this thing doesn't have much more of a gear spread over current 6 speeds. I am sure it is intended for light duty applications only. I hope it really adds to drivability, and is not just a scheme to maximize EPA MPG ratings. If the software isn't right it's going to be busy. Really busy. I have ZF 8HP in my car and it is like magic... the car is always in the right gear under any circumstance. It's not "busy" at all. Under normal driving conditions, it never races from 1st to 8th gear anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YT90SC Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 The 5R55W/S/N had issues due to the use of bands (not used in any Ford trans anymore) side loading the apply servos in addition to an OD gearset that liked to puke brass due to the design of the planet thrust washers. The solenoid pack failures that came were usually misdiagnosed as just solenoids, not the brass contamination that they really were. Akirby, the 6F35's single biggest issue was the valvebody and its tendency to wear out the solenoid pressure control valve. There are other issues, yes, like self removing snap rings on the center support, but there have been several revisions to that as well. Many of the programming changes to that particular trans were to try and work around the solenoid pressure control valve. Silversvt, My 93 Taurus has 353k miles on it. It just broke for the first time. Lost reverse. My 02 Taurus has 221k. Never had the pan off of it except for filters. On the AXOD-E/AX4S/AX4N/4F50N its surprising the amount of torque convertor based pump drive failures that are misdiagnosed as "the trans is totaled" when all it needed was a $150 torque convertor. Its also fairly common for people to ignore engine coolant leaks that allow the trans cooler to overheat but won't overheat the engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 How does the gear spread of the new 10 speed compare to the 6R140? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) How does the gear spread of the new 10 speed compare to the 6R140? Has Ford released the ratios for the 10 speed? ZF 8HP ratios: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZF_8HP_transmission Ford 6R ratios: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_6R_transmission Edited January 7, 2015 by bzcat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 planet thrust washers Is that anything like Planet Hollywood. Or Planet Fitness? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lfeg Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 No no no, it is a new planet found in the Oort Cloud. The planet Thrust Washer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Silversvt, My 93 Taurus has 353k miles on it. It just broke for the first time. Lost reverse. My 02 Taurus has 221k. Never had the pan off of it except for filters. On the AXOD-E/AX4S/AX4N/4F50N its surprising the amount of torque convertor based pump drive failures that are misdiagnosed as "the trans is totaled" when all it needed was a $150 torque convertor. Its also fairly common for people to ignore engine coolant leaks that allow the trans cooler to overheat but won't overheat the engine. My parents had a 89 Taurus wagon that shit the bed at 63K and my dad sold it to a friend and it needed transmission work at 120K again. Not sure what exactly what the issue was with it when it did go. My parents where also unlucky with their 2002 Explorer having transmission and rear diff problems too that those SUV's where notorious for having. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Oldwizard, how about a splitter incorporated as a final stage in the transmission instead of a two speed axle? Think of the old 8 speed RoadRangers, a four speed transmission with a 2 speed splitter mounted on the back. Although it was a stick, it was simpler to shift than a 4 speed with a 2 speed axle. (ever miss a shift with a 2 speed axle? it can be panic inducing.) First, understand my comments were relative to medium duty applications. But, yes, anything that widens the overall ratio spread. The mechanical design of an automatic that could have the tailhousing replaced with a splitter as the application required would not be all that difficult, but software and calibration would be a bear. Things could be simplified if use of the splitter was restricted to say the first two ratios and the top ratio Again, in the medium duty market, I think even a manual shift would be acceptable, especially if it could be done while the vehicle was rolling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Why are we talking about the 6R140? Isn't that just in the Superduty, not F150? I think the 10 speed is going to be F150 only so a 6R80 is plenty beefy enough. My fault. Or maybe I should say faulty memory ! This is one of the latest GM/Ford joint design exercises. My memory was that the goal was a >= 8 speed transmission aimed at replacing the 6R140. This one clearly is not aimed at that segment ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 I'm curious to see how well this works from an efficiency, driving feel, and reliability perspective. Efficiency: In an auto transmission, more gears = more efficient shifts, in theory. Though wouldn't that depend on the ability of the transmission to change quickly/properly calculate the optimal time to shift. From what I can remember from my informal education from the Ford engineers in Livonia, "efficient" shifts have to happen "quickly". Quick shift tend to be labeled as "harsh" in most customer surveys. Moving 2 friction elements at the same time is difficult (GM had a transmission that had multiple one-way clutches so that only one friction element was manipulated to get to the next gear). I hope it really adds to drivability, and is not just a scheme to maximize EPA MPG ratings. If the software isn't right it's going to be busy. Really busy. The inverse of what I just said is that customers perceive long shift time between gears (lots of slippage) to be "better". Not good for fuel economy, A properly programed 8 speed (and I suppose 9 or 10 speed) won't feel "busy" at all. "The proof of the pudding is in the eating !" ... more gears doesn't usually result in significantly higher or lower 1st or last ratios. It just add more steps in between to optimize fuel consumption and performance. The goal of any transmission is to keep the engine operating in a more optimal RPM range. Limiting the ratio range clearly achieve that goal. However, for vehicles that have the ability of carrying/towing a wide range of loads (pickup, medium/full sized SUVs), a wider ratio range is desirable. You can think of EcoBoost as sort of a "wide ratio" engine. Light load, get minimal boost. Heavy loads get maximum boost. You can call these "CAFE beater" if you want, but customers really do want good fuel economy (at light load and light acceleration) and power when they want/need it ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Moving 2 friction elements at the same time is difficult In the 5R55 the 2-3 (I think) shift required moving 2 elements - the main gear and the OD gear. It was the most problematic. I know the supervisor for the tranny software and that was their biggest nightmare trying to keep those in sync. Of course that was almost 20 years ago so you hope it's a lot easier nowadays. I think it was 1st gear - 1 2nd gear - 1 + OD 3rd gear - 2 4th gear - 3 5th gear - 3 + OD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lfeg Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Oldwizard, my comments were for the mediums. I do not think that a splitter on the back of a transmission would be cost effective for pickups. And from what I see, the medium market is moving to more automatics, one reason being that it increases the available driver pool. Two speed axles (at least the electric spring loaded shift ones I am familiar with) do not seem to go well with automatics. Even with manuals it takes a bit of experience to get the hang of it. Splitter technology is well developed, but only seems to exist on the heavies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe771476 Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 I fail to see the need for this. My wife leased a 96 Nissan Sentra which I wasn't crazy about being a Ford guy, but anyway it had a manual 5 speed tranny that went into overdrive mode and I could get 48 MPG with it! Ten speed trannies..........hybrids? Who needs em? I could eke out 32 MPG averaging 45 MPH on a secondary road with a 1985 Cadillac 4.1L V8 that I inherited (I never would have paid money for one!). By the way, I had to rent a car for a day and it turned out to be a Nissan and where the dashboard info displays the miles per gallon, it said MPH!! H? Did they goof!? Another tidbit......the reason for the rental was my 2001 Taurus needed a fuel pump and my buddy who owns the garage and to whom I sold auto parts for 30 years, suggested a new Motorcraft fuel pump over an Airtek. He said the Airteks were not reliable. I've been out of the biz for 15 years, so I caved......price.......$600! Are they made out of gold or platinum!? The car owes me nothing, I bought it with 86K miles and now I have 160K and I paid $1500 for the car just about 2 years ago, from him as a matter of fact. The only other thing I had to put in was an alternator and I did it myself and it was the easiest one I've ever done! Even easier than my 67 Mustang! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YT90SC Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Akirby, You are right, the 1-2 up/dn and 4-5 up/dn are the only non-synchronous (single element) shifts. All others are. It is basically C4 behind the center support with an OD section in front of it. Second is just overdriven first, fifth is overdriven fourth so the only changing element is the OD band. The 6R140 is almost exactly a scaled up 6R80, so doing the same for the new trans should be fairly easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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