Bob Rosadini Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Automotive News / June 22, 2015 Fiat Chrysler Automobiles’ Ram (aka. Dodge) division is firing the opening salvo in the 2016 model pickup wars by boosting the torque rating of its high-output, 6.7-liter diesel engine to 900 pounds-feet -- highest in the industry. The increased power comes standard on all versions of the heavy-duty Ram equipped with an optional beefed up Aisin six-speed automatic transmission. The high-output Ram 3500 also has an industry best maximum towing rating of 31,210 pounds, an increase of 1,210 pounds from a similarly equipped 2015 Ram 3500 with an Aisin six-speed transmission, FCA said today. Heavy-duty Ram trucks with FCA’s regular six-speed automatic transmissions remain unchanged at 800 pounds-feet of torque. Ford’s recently revamped PowerStroke diesel V-8, which is optional in its Super Duty pickups, is rated at 860 pounds-feet of torque, while General Motors’ Duramax V-8 diesel engine in its heavy-duty Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra pickups carries a torque rating of 765 pounds-feet. GM and Ford are not expected to make major changes to their pickup diesel engines for 2016. Nissan plans to introduce an optional 5.0-liter Cummins diesel V-8 this fall in its redesigned Titan pickup. That engine develops 555 pounds-feet of torque, Nissan says. Ford, GM and Nissan offer their diesel engines with only one power rating. Torque -- not horsepower -- is the more important measure for heavy-duty trucks because it is directly related to the vehicle’s towing and hauling capability. Just hope they also increased the U-joints, driveshafts and rear difs. Just think of what an incompetent driver can do with all that torque when he gets his foot into it at the wrong time! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 I've been next to an HD truck when the driver mashed the throttle at a stoplight and blew the U-joints apart surprised none of it wound up embedded in my car Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 They can manage torque with software now, just like they do with the D4 3.5EB vehicles (Taurus, MKS, Flex, MKT, Explorer). I wonder if Ford has another 40 lb/ft waiting to be unlocked with a software bit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted June 22, 2015 Author Share Posted June 22, 2015 They can manage torque with software now, just like they do with the D4 3.5EB vehicles (Taurus, MKS, Flex, MKT, Explorer). I wonder if Ford has another 40 lb/ft waiting to be unlocked with a software bit? AK-good point, but I have to believe at some point that incredible torque shows up in that drive line. As for my SHO, I am not a cowboy, but I will say this, without going crazy the torque steer can catch you off guard when you have the wheels even at not too great an angle-and again, without going crazy. Those kinds of torque number were high 25years ago with a class 8 at 80,000 lbs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blwnsmoke Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 (edited) I know they have 6.7 mules running over 500hp and over 1,000 ft lbs but what they decide to do for an actual upgrade is to be seen. I know they are working on it from my SD contact... I know it will be via reflash as well but the real question is whether Ford waits for the 2017 SD for the bump up in power or if they flash the 16s as well. Edited June 22, 2015 by blwnsmoke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 2017 should put the nail in the coffin with the aluminum body. The numbers will probably be unobtainable to Dodge, er Ram, until a full redesign. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 This is just getting ludicrous! When does it stop? I know they have 6.7 mules running over 500hp and over 1,000 ft lbs but what they decide to do for an actual upgrade is to be seen. I know they are working on it from my SD contact... I know it will be via reflash as well but the real question is whether Ford waits for the 2017 SD for the bump up in power or if they flash the 16s as well. I bet Ford waits for the '17 to up the power on the SD so they can really raise the bar with the redesign. Can't wait to see that truck. I do hope there is either an EcoBoost or a smaller diesel available. I don't need 450+/900+ in my truck. 400/500 or 350/600 would be perfectly fine for me. Blwnsmoke, you have any details on the '17 Super Duty you want to share? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 No no No, SD must have 700 hp and 1500 lb ft so it can equal CTS-V's 0-60 mph whilst towing 15,000 lbs. Let the war games begin... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 This is all for bragging rights because the Powerstroke is tuned "lower" for F650/F750 applications.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blwnsmoke Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 This is just getting ludicrous! When does it stop? I bet Ford waits for the '17 to up the power on the SD so they can really raise the bar with the redesign. Can't wait to see that truck. I do hope there is either an EcoBoost or a smaller diesel available. I don't need 450+/900+ in my truck. 400/500 or 350/600 would be perfectly fine for me. Blwnsmoke, you have any details on the '17 Super Duty you want to share? I wish I did have more info.. they are being extremely tight lipped with the new SD. I know one of the tunes they were running about 515hp in the 6.7.. It is obviously taking much of the styling ques of the F150 which is nothing new. I know my contact has driven a few of them and had taken a buddy I know for a ride in one of them and the 10 speed in them are quite impressive. Wish I could offer more but I can't get anything else out of him yet. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 (edited) I wish I did have more info.. they are being extremely tight lipped with the new SD. I know one of the tunes they were running about 515hp in the 6.7.. It is obviously taking much of the styling ques of the F150 which is nothing new. I know my contact has driven a few of them and had taken a buddy I know for a ride in one of them and the 10 speed in them are quite impressive. Wish I could offer more but I can't get anything else out of him yet. I can't wait to see more info on these beasts. 515 HP is just crazy! That 10 speed should make a huge difference too. I think we will see an EcoBoost make an appearance as well. Edited June 24, 2015 by fordmantpw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I like how Dodg....errr, I mean, RAM touts how they cranked out more power....they did NOTHING....Cummins built the motor, Cummins approved the tune increase....RAM did nothing at all...except brag..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blwnsmoke Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I like how Dodg....errr, I mean, FIAT touts how they cranked out more power....they did NOTHING....Cummins built the motor, Cummins approved the tune increase....RAM did nothing at all...except brag..... FTFY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blwnsmoke Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I can't wait to see more info on these beasts. 515 HP is just crazy! That 10 speed should make a huge difference too. I think we will see an EcoBoost make an appearance as well. With a 10 speed and hopefully a 700lb reduction like the F150, there should be no reason they can't get 20mpg unloaded. If they can't do that, Ford is doing something wrong. I have a 2015 F350 with the 440/860 and that alone is amazing. It's crazy the 40-80mph acceleration in this thing on the highway. I know he said he was spinning the tires through 3rd gear lol.. My only thoughts are how much hunting the truck is going to do when towing a heavy load. I tow a 13,500lb 5th wheel with mine and it doesn't matter where I travel (thus far) it maintains 65mph in 6th gear.. I've pulled 5-6% grades and still never has to downshift to maintain speed. I question how much shifting the 10 speed will be doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 (edited) With a 10 speed and hopefully a 700lb reduction like the F150, there should be no reason they can't get 20mpg unloaded. If they can't do that, Ford is doing something wrong. I have a 2015 F350 with the 440/860 and that alone is amazing. It's crazy the 40-80mph acceleration in this thing on the highway. I know he said he was spinning the tires through 3rd gear lol.. My only thoughts are how much hunting the truck is going to do when towing a heavy load. I tow a 13,500lb 5th wheel with mine and it doesn't matter where I travel (thus far) it maintains 65mph in 6th gear.. I've pulled 5-6% grades and still never has to downshift to maintain speed. I question how much shifting the 10 speed will be doing. Consider though, some people were thinking the same thing when we went fron 3 to 4 and 5 speed and then 6-speed.. What we'll see is the engine selecting the best gears for loading and with electronics monitoring, less chance of hunting gears. It's now all about keeping the converter locked as much as possible, so a lot less converter stall when you surge the gas pedal. Edited June 25, 2015 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 With a 10 speed and hopefully a 700lb reduction like the F150, there should be no reason they can't get 20mpg unloaded. If they can't do that, Ford is doing something wrong. I have a 2015 F350 with the 440/860 and that alone is amazing. It's crazy the 40-80mph acceleration in this thing on the highway. I know he said he was spinning the tires through 3rd gear lol.. My only thoughts are how much hunting the truck is going to do when towing a heavy load. I tow a 13,500lb 5th wheel with mine and it doesn't matter where I travel (thus far) it maintains 65mph in 6th gear.. I've pulled 5-6% grades and still never has to downshift to maintain speed. I question how much shifting the 10 speed will be doing. That's a nice looking combo! I'm interested in the gear spacing on the 10 speed. Is it going to have a higher OD? Multiples? Same spread just smaller jumps between gears? With the advancement in programming, I don't think we will see much hunting. I bet the transmission will just magically 'know' which gear to be in at nearly every instance. Also, with a 700 lb weight reduction, the SD is going to weigh in close to the weight of the '14 F150. That's really pretty impressive! My '08 (with the 5 speed) does well with our 9.5k fiver. It will kick down a gear on some of the larger grades, but it pulls like a tug all day long in 5th and keeps 65 MPH no problem. I'm running 210 ft-lbs and 90 HP less than you, but still, the acceleration is pretty incredible in the passing range. Even with the fiver in tow, to accelerate to pass is really effortless. These are some things I LOVE about towing with a diesel compared to a gasser. If an EcoBoost can match that for $7k less than a diesel, though, I don't know that I will go diesel next time around. For the weight I tow, I don't need 900 ft-lbs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blwnsmoke Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 (edited) My '08 (with the 5 speed) does well with our 9.5k fiver. It will kick down a gear on some of the larger grades, but it pulls like a tug all day long in 5th and keeps 65 MPH no problem. I'm running 210 ft-lbs and 90 HP less than you, but still, the acceleration is pretty incredible in the passing range. Even with the fiver in tow, to accelerate to pass is really effortless. These are some things I LOVE about towing with a diesel compared to a gasser. If an EcoBoost can match that for $7k less than a diesel, though, I don't know that I will go diesel next time around. For the weight I tow, I don't need 900 ft-lbs. That is true, they could program differently and they can program differently when in tow/haul mode possibly using 8 of the gears in a particular combo one way, and the other 2 plus the same 6 in another combo.. That brings me back to the 5R tranny in the 03-07 (continued in 08??) where it technically is a 6 speed transmission. The 5R skips 4th gear unless it is in extreme cold conditions.. so although a 6 speed, normal driving was 1, 2, 3, 5 and 6th gear. Extreme cold was 1, 2, 3, 4, 6 gear until the truck/tranny warmed up (talking below 0 temps). And keep in mind that although a $7k upgrade, you get a good portion of that back upon resale so it really isn't a true $7k hit through the life of ownership unless you drive it into the ground and it goes to the scrap yard. Edited June 25, 2015 by blwnsmoke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 That is true, they could program differently and they can program differently when in tow/haul mode possibly using 8 of the gears in a particular combo one way, and the other 2 plus the same 6 in another combo.. That brings me back to the 5R tranny in the 03-07 (continued in 08??) where it technically is a 6 speed transmission. The 5R skips 4th gear unless it is in extreme cold conditions.. so although a 6 speed, normal driving was 1, 2, 3, 5 and 6th gear. Extreme cold was 1, 2, 3, 4, 6 gear until the truck/tranny warmed up (talking below 0 temps). Hmmm, didn't realize that about the 5R tranny. Yes, the '08-'10 has the same tranny (beefed up though I believe) as the '03.5-'07. And keep in mind that although a $7k upgrade, you get a good portion of that back upon resale so it really isn't a true $7k hit through the life of ownership unless you drive it into the ground and it goes to the scrap yard. Yeah, that is true, but it's still a big hit upfront. Not to mention what I could do with that extra $7k in the meantime, money I could 'make' off of that, or not needing to pay interest on that extra, etc. Since I tend to keep my vehicles for a while, that's a while to have that money tied up. I don't put many miles on my truck, so fuel economy isn't really an issue, but my short trips are really not conducive to driving a diesel, especially one with a DPF that I often have to make a special 20 minute trip just to let a regen complete. That doesn't count the fact that diesel fuel is more expensive than gas, as much as 30% over the past year (only about 8-10% right now). Now, if I were towing 13k+ like you, it would be a no-brainer. For under 10k lbs, especially with the truck dropping 700-1000 lbs, I just can't justify it. Now, if there were a smaller diesel at a $4k premium as opposed to the $8k premium for the 6.7L, that would be easier to justify. I don't know, it's going to be interesting to see what the '17 has in store. I'm already saving my pennies for a '19. We will see what the options are then to see which engine I choose. Definitely going to be exciting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blwnsmoke Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 (edited) Hmmm, didn't realize that about the 5R tranny. Yes, the '08-'10 has the same tranny (beefed up though I believe) as the '03.5-'07. Yeah, that is true, but it's still a big hit upfront. Not to mention what I could do with that extra $7k in the meantime, money I could 'make' off of that, or not needing to pay interest on that extra, etc. Since I tend to keep my vehicles for a while, that's a while to have that money tied up. I don't put many miles on my truck, so fuel economy isn't really an issue, but my short trips are really not conducive to driving a diesel, especially one with a DPF that I often have to make a special 20 minute trip just to let a regen complete. That doesn't count the fact that diesel fuel is more expensive than gas, as much as 30% over the past year (only about 8-10% right now). Now, if I were towing 13k+ like you, it would be a no-brainer. For under 10k lbs, especially with the truck dropping 700-1000 lbs, I just can't justify it. Now, if there were a smaller diesel at a $4k premium as opposed to the $8k premium for the 6.7L, that would be easier to justify. I don't know, it's going to be interesting to see what the '17 has in store. I'm already saving my pennies for a '19. We will see what the options are then to see which engine I choose. Definitely going to be exciting. Going completely off topic now lol but since we mentioned the 5R tranny, here is a description from an Ex Ford Tranny engineer. I think I misspoke.. there is a high/low that creates 6 speeds rather then it being a 6 speed.. I'm no tranny expert so I don't know if that makes sense lol. Ignore the red words, I did a quick search for it using the keywords to find the post explaining it. This transmission is really two transmissions in one case. There is a two speed in the front and a three speed in the rear.First gear is both trans in low 3.11:1 Second the two speed shifts to 0.71 ratio, rear stays in low 2.2:1 Third the front goes back to low (1:1) and the rear shifts to second 1.54:1 Fourth the front is in high (0.71) and the rear is in second 1.09:1 Fifth the front is in 1:1 and the rear shifts to high (1:1) overall ratio is 1:1 Sixth the front shifts to high and the rear stays in high 0.71:1 Fourth and fifth are NEVER used together. It's always one or the other. In very cold weather (TFT less than 0°F) the trans shifts 1-2-3-4-6. Above that it shifts 1-2-3-5-6. We did that because the 3-4 shift was MUCH easier to control in cold weather than the 3-5. Once the trans warmed above 0°F we could do the 3-5 again. At any temperature if the truck is in sixth gear going too fast to shift back to third when the go pedal is on the floor it can shift to fourth instead of fifth. From fourth it can upshift back to sixth or downshift to third, but NEVER from fourth to fifth. Credit - http://www.thedieselstop.com/forums/f23/question-trans-06-07-a-357666/ Edited June 25, 2015 by blwnsmoke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 SoonerLS and I know Mark Kovalsky very well. He also worked on the 5R55 in the Lincoln LS as well as the Torqshift and the Abrams tank prior to Ford. He's a great guy and knows a lot about Ford trannies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blwnsmoke Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 That's awesome that you know Mark, small world in a way.... he has helped out many on the TDS community in the 6.0 forum. His knowledge is quite incredible and always enjoy reading his posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I actually met him way back in 1997 on the alt.autos.ford newsgroup. He was commenting on the Explorer 5R55 tranny. And yes, it is a small world. But I wouldn't want to paint it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 That's a great explanation of how the tranny works! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I actually met him way back in 1997 on the alt.autos.ford newsgroup. He was commenting on the Explorer 5R55 tranny. And yes, it is a small world. But I wouldn't want to paint it. Is he still with Ford? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blwnsmoke Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 His signature says "Former Automatic Transmission Engineer 1988-2007" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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