matthewq4b Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 As has been pointed out earlier, Ford has invested approximately $0 in new I-6 (passenger car) engines. That number matches--roughly--the amount of money invested by Toyota, Honda, Hyundai/KIA, Nissan/Renault, Volkswagen, GM and Fiat. Combined, those companies represent something like 90% of the global auto market (including Chinese JVs). So, no, I don't think the I-6 is on the verge of a comeback. Does the I-6 have advantages over a V6? Yes. Does the V6 have advantages over the I6? Yes. And those advantages are a lot more valuable to manufacturers than the advantages of I6s are to consumers. Well Richard by that logic every one but GM invested $0 dollars in dual circuit brake systems, every one except Chyco spent $0 on computerized auto anti lock braking systems. So what's your point ? And sorry to burst your bubble but Mercedes BMW, Fiat ,PSA Peugeot Citroen, VW (for Audi/ Bentley) Jaguar/Landrover/Tata and of course Volvo are looking at Inline 6's or are developing their next generations of I6's. So not any where near cut and dried as you like to make it out to be. Sorry say Richard but you are behind the curve on this one, the I6 offers several advantages to manufacturers over the V6 to achieve the same equivalence or better than a V6 in a given chassis. In short you can get an engine with better NVH, more low end torque, higher efficacy ,with fewer parts in engine and exhaust for less overall cost than a V6. That is why we are starting to see a resurgence in the interest in I6's within several of the auto manufacturing groups. Not just Jag and Mercedes Currently the V6 offers no technical or cost advantage over an I6 the only advantage is packaging and that is becoming a non issue as 6's are more and more just found in large mid and full size platforms. Here is an R&T article from earlier in the year that sort of touches on it. http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/videos/a8645/the-enginerdy-dept-straight-six-revival/ So regardless of your personal feelings on the matter I6's are once again on the radar for a variety of reasons most significantly lower over all cost. And in the auto industry cost takes precedent over nearly everything. Matthew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Mercedes or BMW are not worried about putting the I6 in FWD cars so they go with what makes the most sense for them. I highly doubt VW will go down the I6 route. Audi MLB platform cars are optimized for the Audi V6 family and they are pretty committed to the Audi's 4.0V8 family for Bentley. There is not enough volume for I6 for low budget Bentley or Porsche. PSA is not looking at I6 architecture. They don't even have any car that will need a V6. FCA will be lucky to engineer themselves out of a paper bag with their Alfa mess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthewq4b Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 (edited) Mercedes or BMW are not worried about putting the I6 in FWD cars so they go with what makes the most sense for them. I highly doubt VW will go down the I6 route. Audi MLB platform cars are optimized for the Audi V6 family and they are pretty committed to the Audi's 4.0V8 family for Bentley. There is not enough volume for I6 for low budget Bentley or Porsche. PSA is not looking at I6 architecture. They don't even have any car that will need a V6. FCA will be lucky to engineer themselves out of a paper bag with their Alfa mess. As for VW that are looking to it as they are sharing some engineering with a supplier Bentley does not use the 4.0L V8 but uses the ancient 6.75 Liter V8 and the VW W12. PSA has the full size PF3 platform which needs a new 6cyl power plant and an 3.0L I6 is being considered to replace the current boat anchor V6 for future model it may find it's way in to some other AWD applications also. PSA is still thinking about re-launch back in to NA Possibly Canada first, (Quebec specifically) and their meager crop of 4 bangers wont cut it in most this market but would be passible in Quebec. Alfa is Alfa always has been, beautiful cars with zero reliability any one that has owned one will know what I mean, FCA has several all new vehicles planned for Alfa over the next few years. As crappy as Alfa is on the reliability front they are far far better then they used to be as they are getting better with every passing year. Also don't forget Fiat farms out a large portion of their engine development. Matthew Edited August 3, 2015 by matthewq4b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 less overall cost than a V6 Citation needed. Also, if you're going to talk about an I-6 resurgence being led by a company that is on French government funded life support..................................... http://news.yahoo.com/dongfeng-french-government-invest-peugeot-052330007--finance.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackinaw Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Currently the V6 offers no technical or cost advantage over an I6 the only advantage is packaging and that is becoming a non issue as 6's are more and more just found in large mid and full size platforms. I personally know several engineers who work at Ford Powertrain in Dearborn. Some are in the 6-cylinder group. I can tell you that when Ford decided to re-do their engine lineup a few years back, several different engine configurations were considered (not just straight and V). The engineers know the pro’s and con’s of each design configuration and the winner, for many of the reasons already listed, was the V-design. And that’s really all there is to say on this subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthewq4b Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Citation needed. Also, if you're going to talk about an I-6 resurgence being led by a company that is on French government funded life support..................................... http://news.yahoo.com/dongfeng-french-government-invest-peugeot-052330007--finance.html Uh Mercedes is going back first. And really that is the best you could come up with? An article that an article that is 18 moths old. Because PSA experienced financial issues that some how negates their choice of exploring I6's Especially when they are NOT the only ones going down this road, Come on Richard this is straw grasp even for you. And really it is just common sense. No citation is needed here. I know the mechanical end of things is not your strong suit. So lets simplyfiy it. So lets compare the 2.7 Eco and the BMW 3.0L Inline 6 Simplified casting (Mold cores are much simpler for Inline engines) Easier block surface machining only needs to be done on 2 planes X and Y axis. One less turbo ( that's a couple hundred bucks right there) One less cylinder head. 2 less camshafts. 3 less cam gears One less timing chain One less head gasket. Only one cyl head to machine One less engine deck to machine. less turbo plumbing 2 fewer cats. One less valve cover and gasket. Motor mounts do need complicated construction to abate uneven firing NVH assessory mounting greatly simplified Easier to work on (reduces warranty related Labour costs) 2 fewer Idler pullies. etc...... I can go on and on but you get the point. I personally know several engineers who work at Ford Powertrain in Dearborn. Some are in the 6-cylinder group. I can tell you that when Ford decided to re-do their engine lineup a few years back, several different engine configurations were considered (not just straight and V). The engineers know the pro’s and con’s of each design configuration and the winner, for many of the reasons already listed, was the V-design. And that’s really all there is to say on this subject. And really Ford ICE engineers are not exactly the most progressive bunch by any stretch so that is sort like touting the intelligence merits of the special Ed class. So not exactly a glowing resume on that front. Ford is lagging badly in ICE development, when was the last time they had something cutting edge or for that matter new. They are not the only ones but they certainly are not who you would go to for cutting edge ICE tech. So really to say they looked at all sixes and came up a V6 is not surprising nor anything less should be expected from that bunch. Ford I hate to say has not been first to market first with ICE tech for decades all they do now is follow the pack... eventually, when they get around to it. Matthew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 And really Ford ICE engineers are not exactly the most progressive bunch by any stretch so that is sort like touting the intelligence merits of the special Ed class. So not exactly a glowing resume on that front. Ford is lagging badly in ICE development, when was the last time they had something cutting edge or for that matter new. They are not the only ones but they certainly are not who you would go to for cutting edge ICE tech. So really to say they looked at all sixes and came up a V6 is not surprising nor anything less should be expected from that bunch. Ford I hate to say has not been first to market first with ICE tech for decades all they do now is follow the pack... eventually, when they get around to it. Matthew Would being the first to really mass-produce and put GTDI engines in a wide array of vehicles not qualify for a first? Sure, they didn't come up with GTDI, but they were the first to bring it to a broad spectrum of vehicles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 (edited) Which suggests that they are adept at figuring out *profitable* engine tech. Or, in other words, if it were significantly cheaper to build I-6s.................................................. Edited August 3, 2015 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 (edited) that is the best you could come up with? Seeing how it's a link to something that actually happened, as opposed to idle speculation and insults, I'd say it's better than anything you've provided so far. Edited August 3, 2015 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 (edited) As for VW that are looking to it as they are sharing some engineering with a supplier Bentley does not use the 4.0L V8 but uses the ancient 6.75 Liter V8 and the VW W12. PSA has the full size PF3 platform which needs a new 6cyl power plant and an 3.0L I6 is being considered to replace the current boat anchor V6 for future model it may find it's way in to some other AWD applications also. PSA is still thinking about re-launch back in to NA Possibly Canada first, (Quebec specifically) and their meager crop of 4 bangers wont cut it in most this market but would be passible in Quebec. Alfa is Alfa always has been, beautiful cars with zero reliability any one that has owned one will know what I mean, FCA has several all new vehicles planned for Alfa over the next few years. As crappy as Alfa is on the reliability front they are far far better then they used to be as they are getting better with every passing year. Also don't forget Fiat farms out a large portion of their engine development. Matthew Bentley Continental uses Audi's 4.0T V8. It's the best selling Bentley model by far. PSA's PF3 platform is engineered for transverse engine. I6 is not really going to work. PS3 is midsize car platform, not fullsize and I4 turbo power is plenty. And if PSA comes back to North America, they won't be selling RWD luxury cars with I6 engine - it will be compact and midsize cars with I4 turbo. FCA has no resources to start new I6 engine development. If they did, Maserati Ghibli will not be using a V6. Edited August 3, 2015 by bzcat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Isn't the 5.2L V8 the largest FPC engine out there? How is that not high tech and groundbreaking? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackinaw Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 .....And really Ford ICE engineers are not exactly the most progressive bunch by any stretch so that is sort like touting the intelligence merits of the special Ed class........ For such a backwards company, Ford must being doing something right. They’ve landed an engine (or two) on the Ward’s “Ten Best Engine” list for the past several years. Also interesting to note that there are no straight-six cylinder engines on the Ward’s 2015 list. But there is one V6. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Isn't the 5.2L V8 the largest FPC engine out there? How is that not high tech and groundbreaking? Because, duh, the flat plane V8 has been around longer than the cross-plane V8. It's nowhere near as ground breaking as 6 cylinders in a row. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 @matthewq4b....? some pretty brazen comments there about Fords ICE chops....how bout this 1.0 eco, engine of the year and the size a piece of stationary, the 5.0 in the lowly Mustang is basically jaguars V8 and is a gem, Flat Plane 5.2..its the largest displacement flat plane in production...even Ferrari has gone that large , the 2.0 eco is utilized in Land Rovers Evoque, Fords eco engines ( ignoring the fact Audi been small dis-placement boosted for years ) are now being mimicked by GM and now Toyota to name but two. Their 6.7 Diesel is a standout, the 3.5 eco is a diamond and will soon be racing Le Mans at 600 plus horsepower and re-tuned in a Raptor....hell, I would go so far as to say Fords ICE dept is right up there amongst the best AND they don't seem to rest on their laurels.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Kat Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Heck a good case could be made that Ford has THE most "avant garde" engine engineering department of any major volume manufacturer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Yeah, but they haven't launched a token passenger car diesel offering in the US, so................................ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 It's pretty simple. Every 6 cylinder Ford engine (3.5L, 3.7L, 2.7L EB and 3.5L EB) is used in both transverse/FWD and longitudinal/RWD applications. You can't do that with an I-6. Companies that only have RWD platforms that already use I-6s can justify the improvements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aneekr Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 I should have added smooth and quiet to my requirements list. Personally, I think the 3.5 V6 in our Flex is rather smooth. Ford really did a great job with NVH suppression with Flex. The Ford 3.5L V6 that's coarse and unrefined in other applications (e.g., Taurus, first-gen Edge, Explorer, etc.) is relatively muted and unoffensive in the Flex. Come to think of it, the 3.0L turbo Volvo/Ford SI6 engine stuffed in Flex's engine bay would be sweet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Ford really did a great job with NVH suppression with Flex. The Ford 3.5L V6 that's coarse and unrefined in other applications (e.g., Taurus, first-gen Edge, Explorer, etc.) is relatively muted and unoffensive in the Flex. Come to think of it, the 3.0L turbo Volvo/Ford SI6 engine stuffed in Flex's engine bay would be sweet. I think the only vehicles that I have been in with the 3.5 are our Flex and the EB version in my father's F150. The engine is quiet and silky smooth in both vehicles. I didn't realize the 3.5L was coarse in other applications. The old 3.0L V6, I could see, but not the 3.5L. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donaldo Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Ford was also pretty innovative with HEV, BEV, and even PHEV drivetrains, but Ford's customers seem to have largely ignored this engineering effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 I find that hard to believe about the 3.5L being rough...all the review (for what they worth) I've seen never mentioned any issues with NVH with that engine in any of the products. The EB 3.5L is fine and never had any issues with it in my parents Sable when they had it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 personally I would keep an eye on the 2.7.....my gut tells me its going to be utilized...a LOT.....St Fusion?.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 2.7 EB is probably going to be the biggest volume Ford V6 engine in a few years. Once the 3.5/3.7 non-EB V6 is phased out of Ford's FWD platform cars and CUVs and replaced with 2.3 EB. I see 2.7 EB being the volume engine in F-150 in a few years too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 I find that hard to believe about the 3.5L being rough. Consider the source (Annekr drives an AMG MB). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerLS Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 (edited) And really Ford ICE engineers are not exactly the most progressive bunch by any stretch so that is sort like touting the intelligence merits of the special Ed class. Wow--you managed to be ignorant, insulting, and offensive all in one sentence. Edited August 4, 2015 by SoonerLS 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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