rmc523 Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 OTOH a lot of hybrid buyers want a regular vehicle like a Fusion, not a bespoke model like a Volt. Don't think there is much room for batteries elsewhere unless you completely re-engineer the platform itself. Maybe that's where Ford's hybrid line could fit in? Vehicles that aren't necessarily "uglified" to be unique, but designed from the beginning to incorporate battery packs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonj80 Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 OTOH a lot of hybrid buyers want a regular vehicle like a Fusion, not a bespoke model like a Volt. Don't think there is much room for batteries elsewhere unless you completely re-engineer the platform itself. I would hope the new B/C/D platforms coming in a few years are engineered with Plug-in and Hybird's models in mind not to take up the space. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 I would hope the new B/C/D platforms coming in a few years are engineered with Plug-in and Hybird's models in mind not to take up the space. Where do you put the batteries though? I can see it in a dedicated hybrid: you build the platform around the batteries. But in a standard platform, even built with batteries in mind, they still have to go somewhere. It's not like there are vast areas of open space in cars where you can just place batteries. They have to take up some empty space that's likely used for storage in a non-hybrid version. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Maybe that's where Ford's hybrid line could fit in? Vehicles that aren't necessarily "uglified" to be unique, but designed from the beginning to incorporate battery packs? Perhaps they could be doing that same thing with the next generation C platform, or CD6 as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 (edited) Where do you put the batteries though? I can see it in a dedicated hybrid: you build the platform around the batteries. But in a standard platform, even built with batteries in mind, they still have to go somewhere. It's not like there are vast areas of open space in cars where you can just place batteries. They have to take up some empty space that's likely used for storage in a non-hybrid version. If you are starting with a ground up design, you can account for better space management so the batteries don't kill cargo space like they do in the current C-max or Fusion. Or especially the electric Focus. Edited October 28, 2015 by fuzzymoomoo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Maybe that's where Ford's hybrid line could fit in? Vehicles that aren't necessarily "uglified" to be unique, but designed from the beginning to incorporate battery packs? Hard to say. C-max was an attempt at a bespoke hybrid vehicle line (in NA) and that didn't work so great. Fusion and MKZ hybrids seem to be selling well (at one time 50% of MKZs were hybrid). I don't think the new line is hybrid per se - I think it's electrified vehicles in general including full electrics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 If you are starting with a ground up design, you can account for better space management so the batteries don't kill cargo space like they do in the current C-max or Fusion. Only to a certain point. After that you start compromising the non-hybrid versions and you end up with compromises all the way around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 If you are starting with a ground up design, you can account for better space management so the batteries don't kill cargo space like they do in the current C-max or Fusion. Or especially the electric Focus. Only to a certain point. After that you start compromising the non-hybrid versions and you end up with compromises all the way around. ^^^^ This What's best? Compromise the hybrid model that accounts for a small percentage of sales or compromise ALL models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Only to a certain point. After that you start compromising the non-hybrid versions and you end up with compromises all the way around. But we know there's a dedicated hybrid line coming, rendering your point moot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 But we know there's a dedicated hybrid line coming, rendering your point moot. We were talking about non-dedicated hybrids. At least, I was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 We were talking about non-dedicated hybrids. At least, I was. Exactly. No brainer in a dedicated hybrid/BEV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang_sallad Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 ^^^^ This What's best? Compromise the hybrid model that accounts for a small percentage of sales or compromise ALL models. VW did pretty well for themselves with the latest Golf - they've got pure gas, plug-in hybrid and pure EV variants of the same model, and none of them have an awkward hump in the back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 VW did pretty well for themselves with the latest Golf - they've got pure gas, plug-in hybrid and pure EV variants of the same model, and none of them have an awkward hump in the back. I would not use VW as an example for anything TO DO right now... Seriously, though, it maybe not be awkward, but I'm sure there is a hump that takes up some space. It either is opened up in the gas version, or it's wasted space in the gas version. That's all I'm saying. You have to put the batteries somewhere... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transitman Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 (edited) Ford needs to adopt an entirely new platform design if they want to have body and platform design flexibility and restore cargo space, which means placing the batteries under the vehicle like this Tesla design. A baterry for a 30-50 mile range PHEV would be less than half that size. Not only would it free up cargo space, it would give better weight distribution to the vehicle. Edited October 31, 2015 by transitman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang_sallad Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 Given the progress that's been made in plug-in vehicles since Ford put out the Focus and the two Energi models, and given the PEV pipelines that other automakers have either announced are previewed with "production-intent" concepts, I'm assuming Ford will have something to show off at NAIAS in January. I really hope so anyways, because my next car absolutely must have a plug on it, and at this stage, I could not justify any of the Fords. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transitman Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 Given the progress that's been made in plug-in vehicles since Ford put out the Focus and the two Energi models, and given the PEV pipelines that other automakers have either announced are previewed with "production-intent" concepts, I'm assuming Ford will have something to show off at NAIAS in January. I really hope so anyways, because my next car absolutely must have a plug on it, and at this stage, I could not justify any of the Fords. After having a PHEV for the past 19 months and saving nearly 450 gallons of gas, I will never go back. I believe Ford will soon unveil some pretty dramatic changes for the 2018 MY. I won't go full EV because I want the ability to drive as far as I want, when I want, and not have to be dependant on a charging infrastructure that doesn't exist and won't for many years. Plus, despite the claims, a vehicle with a 250 mile range will not get 250 miles on a charge. I would like to replace my C-Max and purchase a redesigned Fusion (or Mondeo wagon style) 40-50 range PHEV in 2018/19. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang_sallad Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 I would not use VW as an example for anything TO DO right now... Seriously, though, it maybe not be awkward, but I'm sure there is a hump that takes up some space. It either is opened up in the gas version, or it's wasted space in the gas version. That's all I'm saying. You have to put the batteries somewhere... You do have to put the batteries somewhere, and all I'm saying is that there is at least one example of a c-segment vehicle that accommodates these batteries without any obvious compromise. What you're saying is that, even though no reviews of any of the Golf variants have pointed out any compromises in the luggage area, the batteries must be somewhere, so there must be a compromise somewhere, even if nobody's really noticed it. Comparing that to the first time I popped open the trunk on a Fusion Energi - that's what's got my hopes up real high for something new in this segment from Ford at NAIAS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 The golf GTE loses 25% of its trunk space and has a smaller gas tank. The gas tank is also under the trunk floor behind the rear axle. That is the definition of compromise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 You do have to put the batteries somewhere, and all I'm saying is that there is at least one example of a c-segment vehicle that accommodates these batteries without any obvious compromise. What you're saying is that, even though no reviews of any of the Golf variants have pointed out any compromises in the luggage area, the batteries must be somewhere, so there must be a compromise somewhere, even if nobody's really noticed it. Comparing that to the first time I popped open the trunk on a Fusion Energi - that's what's got my hopes up real high for something new in this segment from Ford at NAIAS. akirby pretty much refuted the claim that there is no compromise with the Golf GTE, but basically, my point is that if you don't notice a big difference between a non-hybrid and a hybrid as far as storage (or gas tank space), then they are likely bringing the compromises of the hybrid to the standard non-hybrid version. Until they start putting batteries inside door and quarter panels, the truth is that there will be comprises to accommodate the batteries. There just isn't a lot of open space to put batteries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Smaller batteries will help but anything over 20 miles either requires a purpose built chassis or the loss of interior or storage space (or fuel tank capacity) to accomodate the batteries. TANSTAAFL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transitman Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Under the current paradigm, yes, cargo space will be compromised. If Ford and others want to move forward with this technology and sell vehicles at a profitable level, the paradigm needs to shift. So far, the approach has been to shoehorn a battery pack in to an existing body style. There must be dedicated platforms, better designed battery placement (see photo above), increased battery range and a marketing campaign to make EV and PHEV vehicles appeal to a broader market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 It's not a paradigm shift. You can't create a single platform that is best in class for regular ICE, hybrids, PHEVs and full electric vehicles. The sheer physical space required for the batteries right now makes that impossible. You can do regular ICE/hybrids really well (minimal battery size) or you can do PHEVs/BEVs really well (battery friendly platform) or you can do one that does both with lots of compromises. TANSTAAFL ( in case you didn't hear it the first time) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transitman Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 There you have it, I guess. Time for lunch. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 There you have it, I guess. Time for lunch. Sorry - I guess I misread your post based on what mustang_sallad had been saying. I think Ford is doing what you're suggesting by creating a platform just for electrified vehicles with a purpose built chassis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted November 2, 2015 Author Share Posted November 2, 2015 Smaller batteries will help but anything over 20 miles either requires a purpose built chassis or the loss of interior or storage space (or fuel tank capacity) to accomodate the batteries. TANSTAAFL (BTW there will be some who say what I am suggesting is imposible ) There is a way to do it with off the Shelf componentry. Using the modular architecture like C2. You use the CUV (Escape) IRS and IFS modules and a Car body (Focus), for a vehicle that's body now sits 3 inches higher than the lower riding Car, this would allow for a wide flat power pack of pair of battery packs to be placed below the floor of the Vehicle. lets Follow my logic. the C-max and the Escape are very close cousins. the differences between them are the front and rear suspensions, which the C-max shares with the Focus. All vehicles share common hard points with the Escape's long Wheelbase a result of the need to handle larger wheels and tires. Heights of Each variant Escape 66.3 C-max 63.9 Focus 57.8 The goal would be to use the excess ground clearance from the Escape's Suspension while keeping Frontal area low. A 3 x 100 x 60in battery pack would be possible to install beneath the floor-pan. Roughly 125Cu/Ft of battery. That's alot of KWh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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