fuzzymoomoo Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 Here's a cool little article from CNet on how GM constructed the powertrain for the 2017 Chevy Bolt http://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/deep-dive-2017-chevrolet-bolt-electric-powertrain/#ftag=YHF7b05e9f 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 nice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 Wow - a big honking battery pack running an electric motor attached to a transmission. Amazing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92merc Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 Wow - a big honking battery pack running an electric motor attached to a transmission. Amazing. I'd say it is innovative and "game changing". Now where is my "roll eyes" emoji?? #eyeroll Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted April 7, 2016 Author Share Posted April 7, 2016 Wow - a big honking battery pack running an electric motor attached to a transmission. Amazing. I thought it was simply an interesting breakdown on how it all goes together. Nowhere did anyone on this site say it was groundbreaking or revolutionary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 (edited) Wow - a big honking battery pack running an electric motor attached to a transmission. Amazing. A battery and a motor has never been a challenging concept. What is challenging is making it lighter, safer, reliable, efficient, affordable and sustainable at a higher production volume. Chevy's achievement is significant and to me it's amazing that a Detroit company has made the most progress in electrification. Of course, GM is very good at making great cars, selling them has always been another matter. Ford is a company that can afford to take its time and doesn't have to scramble to be first in order to find enough customers, Chevy feels otherwise and has a far more aggressive budget and timeline. Edited April 8, 2016 by BORG 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 I don't think there is anything special about the batteries, is there? Lithium ion just like the others. Bolt - 60 kwh, 200 mile range Focus - 23 kWh 105 mile range Leaf - 105 mile range, 30 kWh battery Packaging? Let's line them up under the floor and the rear seat. 200 mile range from a 30 KWH battery would be revolutionary. How is it different than a leaf with a bigger battery? Give them credit for being first to market but I'm not seeing anything that other mfrs can't do of they really wanted to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92merc Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 BTW, I don't expect Ford to do anything earth-shattering with their new platform either. I expect it to be packaged like the Bolt and have roughly the same range based on the battery size. I think 200 mile range is the sweet spot but 300 might be feasible by the time model E debuts. A cheaper 100 mile range version is also possible. It will be designed for higher volumes, not a niche vehicle, and will be priced to turn a profit. The revolutions will come with new battery technology, higher density and faster recharging. I would also say it's an order of magnitude harder to build an ICE PHEV than to just build a dedicated EV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang_sallad Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 Nobody's ever going to get 200 miles out of 30kWh in a car this size - that would be a breakthrough (an incredible one) in aerodynamics and drag reduction. Battery advances will mean cramming 60kWh into a smaller volume. In this case, GM fit a battery that's 2.5 times bigger than the one in the Focus EV, in a smaller car, and the Focus is the one with a ridiculous hump in the trunk. Breakthrough? maybe not, but at least they're moving the ball forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 Nobody's ever going to get 200 miles out of 30kWh in a car this size - that would be a breakthrough (an incredible one) in aerodynamics and drag reduction. Battery advances will mean cramming 60kWh into a smaller volume. In this case, GM fit a battery that's 2.5 times bigger than the one in the Focus EV, in a smaller car, and the Focus is the one with a ridiculous hump in the trunk. Breakthrough? maybe not, but at least they're moving the ball forward. But that was a conscious choice by Ford not to design a special chassis. Not because they don't know how to do it. Nissan did it. Ford will do it with Model E. My point is it's not rocket science just a clean sheet design. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 (edited) But that was a conscious choice by Ford not to design a special chassis. Not because they don't know how to do it. Nissan did it. Ford will do it with Model E. My point is it's not rocket science just a clean sheet design. Unfortunately I do believe their is a knowledge gap between GM and Ford's EV programs and Ford has some degree of catching up to do. But ultimately, I'm pretty sure Ford will be there when they absolutely need to be with the right products. At this time I think Ford sees EVs as a low priority compared to more efficient engines throughout their lineup. Their EV efforts will follow the same path toward a company wide effort and will probably make a bigger impact for more customers. Ford has allot of customers standing by for whatever they do whenever they do it. Edited April 8, 2016 by BORG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 ...they clearly see this as a very low priority compared to more efficient engines throughout their lineup. Probably wise since more efficient engines will add much more to the bottom line than an EV, especially since that knowledge can more easily spread across the entire model range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 Unfortunately I do believe their is a knowledge gap between GM and Ford's EV programs and Ford has some degree of catching up to do. But ultimately, I'm pretty sure Ford will be there when they absolutely need to be with the right products. At this time I think Ford sees EVs as a low priority compared to more efficient engines throughout their lineup. Their EV efforts will follow the same path toward a company wide effort and will probably make a bigger impact for more customers. Ford has allot of customers standing by for whatever they do whenever they do it. I agree with your assessment of Ford's direction. I also agree that GM is ahead of Ford when it comes to actually building EVs since Ford hasn't done a dedicated chassis yet (although one has to assume they're already doing it in their labs). But if you take a CMAX PHEV and replace the ICE with an electric motor and a larger battery pack, how is that any different than Bolt other than the batteries being integrated into the chassis (which isn't that difficult to do)? The PHEVs already have full battery operation, regenerative braking, charging and all the software controls. And Ford has way more experience with that than GM. So I don't think Ford is behind the curve at all I just think they decided to wait for the technology to mature and to have a company wide program rather than producing a one-off for bragging rights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 (edited) I agree with your assessment of Ford's direction. I also agree that GM is ahead of Ford when it comes to actually building EVs since Ford hasn't done a dedicated chassis yet (although one has to assume they're already doing it in their labs). But if you take a CMAX PHEV and replace the ICE with an electric motor and a larger battery pack, how is that any different than Bolt other than the batteries being integrated into the chassis (which isn't that difficult to do)? The PHEVs already have full battery operation, regenerative braking, charging and all the software controls. And Ford has way more experience with that than GM. So I don't think Ford is behind the curve at all I just think they decided to wait for the technology to mature and to have a company wide program rather than producing a one-off for bragging rights. Then the obvious question is, if it's so simple then why doesn't that happen? My guess is that it's simply not feasible to affordably or adequately repurpose an entire vehicle in such a way and Ford's power pack is ultimately designed for multiple applications and not just a single EV. Ford's focus is not on making the best EV but making it work with what they got with a sustainable investment. I do think the C-Max was a huge mistake and should never have been produced, but it's good to learn from it and they didn't spend allot on it. More successful are their hybrid conversions like the Fusion and MKZ which really was the focus of their effort to begin with. The Focus EV is a notably poor effort however and illustrates just how big the differences are between Ford and everybody else at this moment. It's a regulatory product, not something they really want to sell and their lack of effort or investment is obvious. Ford also needs to recover from the FE scandal surrounding their EV products. Edited April 8, 2016 by BORG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 Then the obvious question is, if it's so simple then why doesn't that happen? My guess is that it's simply not feasible to affordably repurpose an platform in such a way and Ford's power pack is ultimately designed for multiple applications and not just a single EV. Ford's focus is not on making the best EV but making it work with what they got with sustainable investment. It's simple (for Ford) but it's very expensive, especially if you're creating a one off platform for just one or two vehicles. If you can't make money from it now why bother? Focus EV cost almost nothing and they get some free R&D out of it for the new platform. Obviously Ford chose to bundle the new platform in with the new C platform to save money. And they see more overall value electrifying regular vehicles across the lineup. It's a business decision, not a technical gap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 It's simple (for Ford) but it's very expensive, especially if you're creating a one off platform for just one or two vehicles. If you can't make money from it now why bother? Focus EV cost almost nothing and they get some free R&D out of it for the new platform. Obviously Ford chose to bundle the new platform in with the new C platform to save money. And they see more overall value electrifying regular vehicles across the lineup. It's a business decision, not a technical gap. I would say is more of an experience gap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 I would say is more of an experience gap. Integrating a PHEV is much more complex than a simple BEV due to the way the ICE interacts with the electric motor and other issues that have to be resolved. If Ford has the experience with that, there's not much that they can't tackle for a BEV. The only issue is where to put the batteries, and that's not so much experience as it is having a platform to utilize. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 Integrating a PHEV is much more complex than a simple BEV due to the way the ICE interacts with the electric motor and other issues that have to be resolved. If Ford has the experience with that, there's not much that they can't tackle for a BEV. The only issue is where to put the batteries, and that's not so much experience as it is having a platform to utilize. My point exactly. Ford can build an EV but I guarantee you Tesla can't build a PHEV with an ICE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 It's simple (for Ford) but it's very expensive This, basically. If you've got a choice between eking out a small profit on your HEV product range or losing money on an EV... Furthermore, assuming that Ford is doing no research into EVs based on the lack of a dedicated EV product is somewhat unjustified. There's going to be an F150 diesel in a year or two (apparently), does that mean that Ford hasn't done anything to develop light truck diesels over the past decade? That they just got a wild hare last year and threw a whole bunch of money at something that they hadn't spent any money on before? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 (edited) From what I've read lately, Ford was surprised at how quickly battery prices have come down and I suspect that until recently, Ford thought it had more time to develop EV responses. I have no doubt that in the next three or four years, most of the major manufacturers will have a 200-250 mile EV on sale for $30K-$35K. The biggest hurdle is to do that on a grand scale with mass production through an effective dealer network while making enough profit to justify making even more models. Next gen battery tech is what Ford is now working on and needs to bring to market, trying to compete with those established EVs on their terms would be financial suicide. So it's clear to me the big advances are still with next gen improved battery density and size reduction, team that with aggressive vehicle light weighting and we could see Ford using a completely different mix of peak power and vehicle weight to get similar max range at lower cost. Edited April 8, 2016 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 (edited) It's also beneficial to allow the industry to develop and iterate and watch the consumers respond (or not), especially if the path toward success isn't clear or even essential to their business. Once others have a successful formula, Ford can dissect and improve upon it without spending so much R&D on a consumer experiment. That's one of the benefits of being late instead of first, being first never guarantees an insurmountable lead. The only thing it may harm is perceived industry relevance (not necessarily consumer relevance). Edited April 8, 2016 by BORG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4d4evr-1 Posted April 9, 2016 Share Posted April 9, 2016 Then the obvious question is, if it's so simple then why doesn't that happen? My guess is that it's simply not feasible to affordably or adequately repurpose an entire vehicle in such a way and Ford's power pack is ultimately designed for multiple applications and not just a single EV. Ford's focus is not on making the best EV but making it work with what they got with a sustainable investment. I do think the C-Max was a huge mistake and should never have been produced, but it's good to learn from it and they didn't spend allot on it. More successful are their hybrid conversions like the Fusion and MKZ which really was the focus of their effort to begin with. The Focus EV is a notably poor effort however and illustrates just how big the differences are between Ford and everybody else at this moment. It's a regulatory product, not something they really want to sell and their lack of effort or investment is obvious. Ford also needs to recover from the FE scandal surrounding their EV products. anecdotal evidence here, my wife and I love our 2013 C-Max SEL Hybrid and thankful it was built. We are now averaging better than 48 MPG since purchase with almost 45K miles. So 1 very satisfied customer here...... You just became my least favorite poster here, well since chevy left.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted April 9, 2016 Share Posted April 9, 2016 anecdotal evidence here, my wife and I love our 2013 C-Max SEL Hybrid and thankful it was built. We are now averaging better than 48 MPG since purchase with almost 45K miles. So 1 very satisfied customer here...... You just became my least favorite poster here, well since chevy left.... To be fair, I actually agree with him. While I'm sure C-Max owners like yourself enjoy the product, I think Ford would've been better off continuing Escape Hybrid production - a vehicle where they were known and a leader in the segment - rather than dropping it in lieu of an attempt at a unique (though not optimized, as it was a modified Euro model) Prius fighter. Now we see competitors entering the exact market (C-segment crossover) Ford had to their own but left. Hindsight is 20/20 though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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