tbone Posted October 8, 2016 Share Posted October 8, 2016 I agree. Mitsubishi hasn't been relevant for a long time. I have always wondered how they have made it this long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted October 8, 2016 Share Posted October 8, 2016 To be fair, who the hell has ever heard of the Kizachi, and Galant has been totally irrelevant for years already. I'm surprised it's lasted this long, as well as Mitsu in general. Wait, are you saying they still make the Galant? I thought they dropped it years ago? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted October 8, 2016 Share Posted October 8, 2016 Midsize has peaked and Ford is probably the first to scale back production to anticipate contracting demand. The problem at Ford right now is that they don't have any product or capacity to absorb the loss in car sales and is instead increasing its dependency on F-Series. Ford is never a company that moves with allot of urgency, they don't really care about marketshare for marketshare sake because they are looking at long term costs and sustainability. Their biggest issue should be mostly resolved by 2020 by realigning production capacity and facilities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 9, 2016 Author Share Posted October 9, 2016 (edited) Wait, are you saying they still make the Galant? I thought they dropped it years ago? heck try finding a Mitsubishi dealership! My Brother in Law owned a Outlander and couldn't find any place to get it worked on in Northern VA! The Galant died in NA back in 2012 Edited October 9, 2016 by silvrsvt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 Ford is moving slowly Is Ford moving slowly? Have we established a baseline for comparison here? Almost all, if not all, of Biker's arguments are based on extremely subjective positions and barely defined terminology. Fiat is 'smart' for leaving the small car market entirely, I guess. Because they can spend all that extra money on a novelty segment. Apparently? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 They are moving slowly by comparison when it comes to small SUVs, Focus/Fiesta transmission replacement, Fiesta/Focus/Fusion/Taurus styling updates and electric vehicles. Not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, especially the latter one. But the small SUV gap (below Escape) is hurting sales although not a huge impact on profits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 They are moving slowly by comparison when it comes to small SUVs, Focus/Fiesta transmission replacement, Fiesta/Focus/Fusion/Taurus styling updates and electric vehicles. Not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, especially the latter one. But the small SUV gap (below Escape) is hurting sales although not a huge impact on profits. But are they really? What's the baseline here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 But are they really? What's the baseline here? How long will the 2012 Focus be in production without a major facelift? Fiesta? When do we get Ecosport and/or other B or small C platform utes in the U.S.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 11, 2016 Author Share Posted October 11, 2016 They are moving slowly by comparison when it comes to small SUVs, Focus/Fiesta transmission replacement, Fiesta/Focus/Fusion/Taurus styling updates and electric vehicles. I take issue with the styling updates: Taurus 2010, 2013 Refresh Dead 2019/20 Fusion 2013 (brand new), 2017 Refresh New Platform 2020? Focus: 2012 (brand new), 2014/15 Refresh, New/seriously refreshed 2018/19 Fiesta: 2010/11 (brand new), 2014 Refresh, New/Seriously refreshed 2018 As for the small SUV....I think the biggest issue is where to build it in NA and I don't think the current EcoSport will cut it in this marketplace. Not to mention the new tooling for the plant in Mexico and possible moving of the Fiesta some place else. Lots of balls in the air with Ford with it moving its small passenger car manufacturing around and adding the Model E to that mix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 I think the "problem" is how minor the Focus and to a lesser extent the Fiesta and Fusion refreshes were. While they did receive refreshes, visually not much was changed, nor was much if anything changed powertrain wise to update them (though Fusion added Sport and Platinum trims), which leads people to believe they're older than they are and/or that it's been longer than it has been since a refresh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 11, 2016 Author Share Posted October 11, 2016 I think the "problem" is how minor the Focus and to a lesser extent the Fiesta and Fusion refreshes were. While they did receive refreshes, visually not much was changed, nor was much if anything changed powertrain wise to update them (though Fusion added Sport and Platinum trims), which leads people to believe they're older than they are and/or that it's been longer than it has been since a refresh. That I have to agree with... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 I think the "problem" is how minor the Focus and to a lesser extent the Fiesta and Fusion refreshes were. While they did receive refreshes, visually not much was changed, nor was much if anything changed powertrain wise to update them (though Fusion added Sport and Platinum trims), which leads people to believe they're older than they are and/or that it's been longer than it has been since a refresh. Exactly. Even if they received a "refresh" it was so small that nobody noticed. This does hurt sales a bit especially for leases - if I had a 2013 or 2014 Fusion lease am I going to turn it in and get what is essentially the same car I just had or am I going to go find something different? I'm not saying this is a problem in the bigger picture or that there aren't good reasons for it - but it is a fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 As for the small SUV....I think the biggest issue is where to build it in NA and I don't think the current EcoSport will cut it in this marketplace. Not to mention the new tooling for the plant in Mexico and possible moving of the Fiesta some place else. Lots of balls in the air with Ford with it moving its small passenger car manufacturing around and adding the Model E to that mix. Again I'm not saying they don't have good reasons. But you can't deny it's taking Ford a long time to bring small utes to North America especially compared to the competition and it is most definitely leaving sales (if not big profits) on the table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 Exactly. Even if they received a "refresh" it was so small that nobody noticed. This does hurt sales a bit especially for leases - if I had a 2013 or 2014 Fusion lease am I going to turn it in and get what is essentially the same car I just had or am I going to go find something different? I'm not saying this is a problem in the bigger picture or that there aren't good reasons for it - but it is a fact. Fusion, IMO was the most changed of the 3 sedans - albeit through the addition of additional trims on the top end - it did add a lot in the way of options though (auto cruise etc) that the Fiesta/Focus didn't get even as options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 Ever since the 2012 model year, there's been features removed from the Focus every year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 How long will the 2012 Focus be in production without a major facelift? Fiesta? When do we get Ecosport and/or other B or small C platform utes in the U.S.? But what's the baseline? What is the average product cycle across all manufacturers, not just very small barely profitable ones (Mazda) or companies that really messed up a bread and butter product and wisely rushed a refreshed product to market (Honda). And as far as the Ecosport goes, late isn't the same as slow. What's the turnaround from greenlight to job 1? Is Ford really moving slower than the competition, or are they moving *later* than the competition? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 The standard is 2-3 years for a refresh, 5-6 years for a new model. Look at F150. Fusion went unchanged for 2013, 2014, 2015 and 2016. The 2017 appearance changes are so minor 99% of buyers wouldn't notice. Yes they added the sport drivetrain but it looks exactly the same. Not much incentive for a 2013-2015 owner to upgrade unless they want a sport but that's a small percentage of buyers. And no prospect of a new model for another 2-3 years. Focus will be virtually unchanged from 2012 - 2019 - that's eight years! What incentive does a 2012 Focus owner have to buy a new one if it's exactly the same vehicle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 And as far as the Ecosport goes, late isn't the same as slow. What's the turnaround from greenlight to job 1? Is Ford really moving slower than the competition, or are they moving *later* than the competition? Slow or late - doesn't matter what you call it. There is a growing market now for small SUVs and Ford won't have any products in NA to fill that void for at least another 2 years. Are there perfectly valid business reasons? Probably. Is it the end of the world? Nope. Are they losing sales and market share? Absolutely. Will it affect profitability? At least a little. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 (edited) The standard is 2-3 years for a refresh, 5-6 years for a new model. Look at F150. F150 isn't a midsize, it isn't a compact, it isn't a subcompact. What is the product cycle across comparable products -- Corolla, Civic, Cruze, Elantra, Forte, Legacy, Mazda3, etc. And the F150 also doesn't run on a 5-6 year new model timeline. ('97 - '04 - '14) Edited October 11, 2016 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 F150 isn't a midsize, it isn't a compact, it isn't a subcompact. What is the product cycle across comparable products -- Corolla, Civic, Cruze, Elantra, Forte, Legacy, Mazda3, etc. And the F150 also doesn't run on a 5-6 year new model timeline. ('97 - '04 - '14) Ford said the '09 was all new. And the latest was '15, not '14. So, '97, '04, '09, '15, or 7, 5, 6 years, for an average of 6. If you want to talk about looooooong product cycles, let's bring up the Super Duty. 18 years for a new generation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 I'm talking about sheet metal and interior updates not new platforms. And I'm not going to argue this down to the smallest detail. If you think Ford isn't moving slower than the competition then so be it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 (edited) Focus did get a major update, we just didn't get it. The rest of the world got 1.0 Ecoboost + 6F and 1.5 Ecoboost + 6F. We got new bumpers. Hurray! Where Focus is relevant to Ford's profit (i.e. Europe and China), it received an extensive mid cycle update that addressed a lot of customer complaints about powertrain. Edited October 11, 2016 by bzcat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 11, 2016 Author Share Posted October 11, 2016 I'm talking about sheet metal and interior updates not new platforms. And I'm not going to argue this down to the smallest detail. If you think Ford isn't moving slower than the competition then so be it. IMO it boils down to basically redoing the entire lineup and aligning it world-wide with new platforms from 2010-2015. Not to mention they barely where able to keep the lights on around 2008 or so...figure 3-4-5 years to develop/update a program and it explains alot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 (edited) Ford is late on many things, but they have a fairly consistent if longish product lifecycle for most products. Right now they are entering a period where they are starting to look a little like old Ford/GM with orphaned and abandoned products still on the books for an indefinite period of time (Taurus, Flex, MKT). The biggest problem with Ford is that they haven't entered new retail segments or adapt to the market nearly as quickly as their competition. Ford is repositioning its platforms and manufacturing to fix a shrinking US retail business, but I've never seen Ford so clearly lagging in core segments. Ultimately I think Ford knows it's in trouble, but just temporarily. Ford is not a company that iterates, it takes big steps and it can take longer to make those steps and there tends to be big gaps between them. Ford is still a company with some big problems to fix. Edited October 11, 2016 by BORG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 Except we know the D4 platform vehicles are being ushered out once D6 arrives. They're not indefinitely around like Crown Vic or Ranger were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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