fuzzymoomoo Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 Except we know the D4 platform vehicles are being ushered out once CD6 arrives. They're not indefinitely around like Crown Vic or Ranger were. FTFY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 IMO it boils down to basically redoing the entire lineup and aligning it world-wide with new platforms from 2010-2015. Not to mention they barely where able to keep the lights on around 2008 or so...figure 3-4-5 years to develop/update a program and it explains alot. AGAIN - I didn't say there weren't good reasons for most of what's happening. I'm just pointing out that they're not keeping vehicles as fresh and updated as the competition or as they've done themselves in the past. Normally you would at least get some distinctive exterior styling upgrades and sometimes an interior upgrade after 4 years. We haven't seen that with Fiesta, Focus or Fusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 I'm talking about sheet metal and interior updates not new platforms. And I'm not going to argue this down to the smallest detail. If you think Ford isn't moving slower than the competition then so be it. I'm asking if anyone has bothered to inject facts into this discussion. What is the average lifespan for a compact sedan, over the past 15 years? (which seems a reasonable window given that the average new car ownership time-frame is 10 years, and that leasing represents a minority of all Ford sales.) What I see is one guy saying "Ford is slow" and everyone else buying into that based on either comparisons to other Ford products in different segments or the fastest moving competitors in the same segment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 Toyota Camry: 2002-2006 5 years 2007-2011 5 years 2012-2014 3 years 2015-present Toyota Corolla: 1998-2002 5 years 2002-2008 7 years 2009-2013 5 years 2014-present Honda Civic 2 First generation (1972–1979) 3 Second generation (1979–1983) 4 Third generation (1983–1987) 5 Fourth generation (1987–1991) 6 Fifth generation (1991–1995) 7 Sixth generation (1995–2000) 8 Seventh generation (2000–2005) 9 Eighth generation (2005–2011) 10 Ninth generation (2011–2015) 11 Tenth generation (2015–present) Honda Accord First generation (1976–1981) 3 Second generation (1981–1985) 4 Third generation (1985–1989) 5 Fourth generation (1989–1994) 6 Fifth generation (1993–1997) 7 Sixth generation (1997–2002) 8 Seventh generation (2002–2007) 9 Eighth generation (2007–2012) 10 Ninth generation (2012–present) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 (edited) I'm asking if anyone has bothered to inject facts into this discussion. What is the average lifespan for a compact sedan, over the past 15 years? (which seems a reasonable window given that the average new car ownership time-frame is 10 years, and that leasing represents a minority of all Ford sales.) What I see is one guy saying "Ford is slow" and everyone else buying into that based on either comparisons to other Ford products in different segments or the fastest moving competitors in the same segment. So here's what I came up with (dating from Focus' debut in 1999-present): Focus: 1999, 2008, 2012, 2015 Corolla: 2003, 2009, 2014, 2017 Civic: 2001, 2006, 2012, 2016 Sentra: 2000, 2007, 2013, 2016 Elantra: 2001, 2007, 2011, 2017 Cobalt/Cruze: 2005, 2011, 2016 Italics represent a refresh, while the others are redesigns. I didn't find much on refreshes before recently. That puts this as the average for each vehicle: Focus: 6.5 years for a redesign, 3 for a refresh Corolla: 5.5 years for a redesign, 3 for a refresh Civic: 5 years for a redesign Sentra: 6.5 years for a redesign, 3 for a refresh Elantra: 5.3 years for a redesign Cruze: 5.5 years for a redesign Edited October 11, 2016 by rmc523 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 So here's what I came up with: Focus: 1999, 2008, 2012, 2015 Corolla: 2003, 2009, 2014, 2017 Civic: 2001, 2006, 2012, 2016 Sentra: 2000, 2007, 2013, 2016 Elantra: 2001, 2007, 2011, 2017 Cobalt/Cruze: 2005, 2011, 2016 Italics represent a refresh, while the others are redesigns. I didn't find much on refreshes before recently. That puts this as the average for each vehicle: Focus: 6.5 years for a redesign, 3 for a refresh Corolla: 5.5 years for a redesign, 3 for a refresh Civic: 5 years for a redesign Sentra: 6.5 years for a redesign, 3 for a refresh Elantra: 5.3 years for a redesign Cruze: 5.5 years for a redesign And by comparison the current Focus has gone 6 years without a refresh and will go at least 2 more before it gets replaced. Fusion is on year 5 without a refresh and will go at least 2 more. The first gen Fusion (2006-2012) got a significant refresh in 2010. Even the 2010 Taurus got a facelift in 2013. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 (edited) How do we account for the facts that the Corolla & Camry platforms are substantially carryover from one 'generation' to the next? Or that Accord and Civic 'generations' do not always correspond to platform overhauls (i.e. '94-'02 Accord-US, and '08 - Accord are substantially carryover platforms) I don't pay enough attention to Hyundai/KIA to know how often those platforms have been significantly overhauled vs. an update. Edited October 11, 2016 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 Going off the compacts, and just using platform updates without splitting hairs about whether the underlying platform has been overhauled to the extent that it can be termed a 'new' platform, this is what we've got: 5 5.3 5.5 5.5 6.5 6.5 Median is 5.5, Average is 5.7. Ford definitely lags by that metric. Going off the 'new platform' scope: Focus: '99 - '11 - '18 Chevrolet: '05 - ? Corolla: ? Civic: '06 - '12 - '16 Sentra: '07 - ? Elantra/Forte: ? Anyone able to fill in these details? When is Delta scheduled to be replaced? When is the next 'all new' Sentra due? What about the Korean twins? And of course, this is strictly NA. Overseas looks different for Ford (but not for the other mfrs). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 And by comparison the current Focus has gone 6 years without a refresh and will go at least 2 more before it gets replaced. Fusion is on year 5 without a refresh and will go at least 2 more. The first gen Fusion (2006-2012) got a significant refresh in 2010. Even the 2010 Taurus got a facelift in 2013. I counted 2015 as Focus' refresh. Because it did get one even if it was minor, as did Fusion for 2017. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 I counted 2015 as Focus' refresh. Because it did get one even if it was minor, as did Fusion for 2017. They were so minor that nobody would notice, so I'm not counting them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 I'm only referring to appearances - sheet metal and interior. Not platforms. My whole point is that by not changing the appearance you're not giving current owners much incentive to buy a new one. People like new things, not a new version of the same thing they just had. This is where Toyota excels (and Honda in most cases). Oh the new Civic or Accord is out - I want one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 AGAIN - I didn't say there weren't good reasons for most of what's happening. I'm just pointing out that they're not keeping vehicles as fresh and updated as the competition or as they've done themselves in the past. Normally you would at least get some distinctive exterior styling upgrades and sometimes an interior upgrade after 4 years. We haven't seen that with Fiesta, Focus or Fusion. I have to believe that's somewhat intended on Ford's part while they are reshuffling manufacturing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 And by comparison the current Focus has gone 6 years without a refresh and will go at least 2 more before it gets replaced. Fusion is on year 5 without a refresh and will go at least 2 more. The first gen Fusion (2006-2012) got a significant refresh in 2010. Even the 2010 Taurus got a facelift in 2013. Focus did get a refresh for 2015 though, people forget that the IP was redesigned too on top of the front and rear facias, plus the 1.0EB added. It was mild, yes but still counts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomcat68 Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 I thought the Focus refresh from the Darth Vader mouth to the Fusion front was pretty different. It wore the Fusion front better than the Fusion. People stopped buying the Focus because of the poor engineering in regards to the transmission and shoppers who did their research found the Focus to be at the bottom of quality scores. And a bad reputation can't be immediately refreshed. I remember a Yahoo auto score of 60 % (!!!!) disliking the Focus which was so disproportionate to the entire market. No one is going to buy this car until it is in a new generation and even then it will have a long trial time to earn its way back to good graces. So leaving this generation with its bad perception for two more years isn't going to bode well and there is no new "hot segment car" like a tiny CUV for those two years. Those like Akirby saying they were unprepared are correct in my opinion. At this point Ford has no other choice but to stay the course and use this time to engineer the best products in the industry to the market to make up for the lost time and poor current product and not rush another car to the market like the current Focus. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 I think a more extensive refresh along with replacing the DCT with a 6F would have helped a good bit in the meantime. Not huge in the overall scheme of things though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 This is where Toyota excels (and Honda in most cases). Oh the new Civic or Accord is out - I want one. Consider: Toyota & Honda overhaul their bread and butter products (Camry, Corolla, Civic, Accord) about as often as Ford overhauls its bread and butter product (F150). While the Fusion & Focus are more important to Ford than the Ridgeline, Tacoma & Tundra are to Honda/Toyota, I think you've got a valid point of comparison. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 12, 2016 Author Share Posted October 12, 2016 I think a more extensive refresh along with replacing the DCT with a 6F would have helped a good bit in the meantime. Not huge in the overall scheme of things though. I'm really curious as to why Ford kept the DCT in the Focus, with its terrible reputation it has. I'm willing to assume it was purely $$$, but at the same time its making a huge impact to the car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 I understand it's partially business priorities and that F150 takes priority at Ford nor was I suggesting that Ford was not making the right business decision. Just pointing out that Ford is slow to make changes to their cars. Toyota is similarly slow to make changes to their BOF SUVs and trucks for the same reason - cars and cuvs are their bread and butter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 I'm really curious as to why Ford kept the DCT in the Focus, with its terrible reputation it has. I'm willing to assume it was purely $$$, but at the same time its making a huge impact to the car. The only reason I could come up with is that they were either stuck with DCT production due to supplier contracts or something to that effect or they didn't have enough 6F production to fill the gap. In that case it probably is better to just bite the bullet and let it ride out as is until the new platform is ready. Does seem a bit puzzling on the surface though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 I'm really curious as to why Ford kept the DCT in the Focus, with its terrible reputation it has. I'm willing to assume it was purely $$$, but at the same time its making a huge impact to the car. As akirby said, my guess is maybe they weren't able to make enough? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 12, 2016 Author Share Posted October 12, 2016 As akirby said, my guess is maybe they weren't able to make enough? But given the damage the car is taking because of the transmission, thats going to hurt future sales of it possibly/most likely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 (edited) So here's what I came up with (dating from Focus' debut in 1999-present): Focus: 1999, 2008, 2012, 2015 Corolla: 2003, 2009, 2014, 2017 Civic: 2001, 2006, 2012, 2016 Sentra: 2000, 2007, 2013, 2016 Elantra: 2001, 2007, 2011, 2017 Cobalt/Cruze: 2005, 2011, 2016 Italics represent a refresh, while the others are redesigns. I didn't find much on refreshes before recently. That puts this as the average for each vehicle: Focus: 6.5 years for a redesign, 3 for a refresh Corolla: 5.5 years for a redesign, 3 for a refresh Civic: 5 years for a redesign Sentra: 6.5 years for a redesign, 3 for a refresh Elantra: 5.3 years for a redesign Cruze: 5.5 years for a redesign Those are not exclusively Ford's competitors. You are missing out on VW, PSA, Renault, and FCA. And you left out the fact that Ford did have a new Focus in 2005 model year so the average between model change over is much shorter. You get a very different view when you include all of the data. Ford is right in the middle. Not the fastest, not the slowest to update. Although the current Focus is going on a little longer than most. Focus: 1999, 2005, 2008, 2012, 2015 VW Jetta: 2000, 2006, 2012 Peugeot 306/307/308: 1993, 1997, 2002, 2007, 2014 Citroen Xsara/C4: 1997, 2005, 2011 Renault Megane: 1996, 2003, 2009, 2017 Fiat Bravo/Stilo/Tipo: 1996, 2002, 2008, 2016 Edited October 12, 2016 by bzcat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 We're talking about the U.S. market here, not Europe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 (edited) But given the damage the car is taking because of the transmission, thats going to hurt future sales of it possibly/most likely. Not to mention more vehicles with possible warranty expenses. It is a double whammy. Edited October 12, 2016 by Anthony Because I always hit submit before proofreading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 Those are not exclusively Ford's competitors. You are missing out on VW, PSA, Renault, and FCA. And you left out the fact that Ford did have a new Focus in 2005 model year so the average between model change over is much shorter. You get a very different view when you include all of the data. Ford is right in the middle. Not the fastest, not the slowest to update. Although the current Focus is going on a little longer than most. Focus: 1999, 2005, 2008, 2012, 2015 VW Jetta: 2000, 2006, 2012 Peugeot 306/307/308: 1993, 1997, 2002, 2007, 2014 Citroen Xsara/C4: 1997, 2005, 2011 Renault Megane: 1996, 2003, 2009, 2017 Fiat Bravo/Stilo/Tipo: 1996, 2002, 2008, 2016 Yeah, I was looking at US vehicles, and I knew I forgot some competitors, but got most of the main ones. I forgot about the refresh the Focus got in '05. I knew there was something in there I missed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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