Jump to content

The Ford Order Tracking System Is No Longer Available.  THANKS Cyberdman For Making Available All Of These Past Years.  More Here.

ANTAUS

Ford Recalls 125K Mav, Escape, Corsair Hybrids

Recommended Posts

Autoblog.com

 

..."Ford has had 27 recalls so far this year, affecting 3.1 million vehicles"....

  • Sad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

NHTSA lists this recall as of today which is why everyone's finally reporting on it.  The following docs were made available.  Some interesting tidbits in there but it still feels as though Ford is holding something back, and that they're trying to get out of a more costly recall that likely would involve at least inspecting all the >100,000 affected long blocks...

 

Acknowledgment letter:
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2023/RCAK-23V380-9304.pdf 

New Vehicle Demonstration/Delivery Hold - Advance Notice:
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2023/RCMN-23V380-2733.pdf

Chronology:
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2023/RMISC-23V380-7289.pdf

Part 573 Safety Recall Report:
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2023/RCLRPT-23V380-2876.PDF

Edited by j2sys
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, j2sys said:

NHTSA lists this recall as of today which is why everyone's finally reporting on it.  The following docs were made available.  Some interesting tidbits in there but it still feels as though Ford is holding something back, and that they're trying to get out of a more costly recall that likely would involve at least inspecting all the >100,000 affected long blocks...

 

Acknowledgment letter:
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2023/RCAK-23V380-9304.pdf 

New Vehicle Demonstration/Delivery Hold - Advance Notice:
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2023/RCMN-23V380-2733.pdf

Chronology:
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2023/RMISC-23V380-7289.pdf

Part 573 Safety Recall Report:
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2023/RCLRPT-23V380-2876.PDF

"...but it still feels as though Ford is holding something back..." I wonder if they are as flummoxed by this as everyone else? They seem to be saying, "Hang on til we figure out what's going on."  In the New Vehicle Demonstration/Delivery Hold-Advance Notice communique, it states: 

"SERVICE ACTION

DO NOT DEMONSTRATE OR DELIVER any new in-stock vehicles involved in this safety recall. A complete Dealer Bulletin will be provided to dealers in the 4th quarter when it is anticipated that a remedy and repair instructions will be available to support this safety recall."

Does this mean that the Escape, Maverick and Corsair Hybrids are off limits until at least October 1?

The other thing I am astounded by is, why such a severe defect appears now, after a dozen or more years of production, or is this not the same 2.5L Atkinson motor?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Chrisgb said:

"...but it still feels as though Ford is holding something back..." I wonder if they are as flummoxed by this as everyone else? They seem to be saying, "Hang on til we figure out what's going on."  In the New Vehicle Demonstration/Delivery Hold-Advance Notice communique, it states: 

"SERVICE ACTION

DO NOT DEMONSTRATE OR DELIVER any new in-stock vehicles involved in this safety recall. A complete Dealer Bulletin will be provided to dealers in the 4th quarter when it is anticipated that a remedy and repair instructions will be available to support this safety recall."

Does this mean that the Escape, Maverick and Corsair Hybrids are off limits until at least October 1?

The other thing I am astounded by is, why such a severe defect appears now, after a dozen or more years of production, or is this not the same 2.5L Atkinson motor?

It's soul crushing to put it mildly. The 2.5 ecvt has been extremely reliable in literally everything else Ford's ever put it in. That's one of the reasons why I was ok buying a first model year, something I've never done.

 

 I was like, it should be fine, most of the parts in the maverick have been around forever even if the truck is new. Just my luck that the 2.5 for the first time stumbles, and it's on a product I own. I'm holding out hope that buried somewhere in there, it's still the same bulletproof 2.5 we all know and love, and that after this recall, and maybe a few others, it'll become a super reliable product. 

 

My truck has been an absolute peach in the 6 months we've owned it. But it is concerning. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Chrisgb said:

"...but it still feels as though Ford is holding something back..." I wonder if they are as flummoxed by this as everyone else? They seem to be saying, "Hang on til we figure out what's going on."  In the New Vehicle Demonstration/Delivery Hold-Advance Notice communique, it states: 

"SERVICE ACTION

DO NOT DEMONSTRATE OR DELIVER any new in-stock vehicles involved in this safety recall. A complete Dealer Bulletin will be provided to dealers in the 4th quarter when it is anticipated that a remedy and repair instructions will be available to support this safety recall."

Does this mean that the Escape, Maverick and Corsair Hybrids are off limits until at least October 1?

The other thing I am astounded by is, why such a severe defect appears now, after a dozen or more years of production, or is this not the same 2.5L Atkinson motor?

 

Sure seems like they're either unsure what the exact problem is, or, more likely, what they are willing to do about it.  22S47 attempted to address "fluid dynamics" to decrease the risk that engine failure would lead to engine fire.  All they did was take away some of our AGS vanes and punch a few holes in the bottom for ventilation, which Ford acknowledges in the docs linked above, didn't really do anything.  Who would've thought?  It's about as effective as trying to address engine failure with software.  Turns out, vehicles that had these "modifications" performed - whether via recall or as a running change at the factory - still catch fire when the engine fails.  They seem to be looking for an alternative to inspecting and potentially replacing up to in excess of 100,000 long blocks (which could easily exceed $100,000,000 if enough need replacement).  At the same time, they're basically telling drivers that there's an unnecessarily high risk of failure/fire due to "isolated engine manufacturing issues".

 

They also go on to acknowledge that they were having issues building the engines to an acceptable quality level, particularly focused around the crankshafts.  Apparently building crankshafts is new for Ford...  They seem fairly confident that after they finally completed their "robustness actions" on/before September 1, 2022, the risk of engine failure is significantly reduced - so far, they haven't had any reports of engine failure from engines built after this date, but it has only been ~9 months.

 

Any units that have been built before the 3 listed dates in May are supposed to be on hold indefinitely.  With Ford, we should really assume they mean there won't be any additional info until end of Q4, meaning by the end of the year.  Then, they need to actually get any necessary parts available to dealers and we'll need to get appointments to bring in the affected vehicles for whatever the "remedy" is this time.  Just hope it's better than making a few holes to improve "fluid dynamics" like they tried to use to get out of properly addressing the units with "isolated engine manufacturing issues".  That said, several over on MTC have reported that there newer 2023s don't yet list the recall at https://www.ford.com/support/recalls/ so as far as the dealer is concerned, it's not actually been recalled (yet).  Thus, they've been able to take delivery.

 

Speaking of those taking delivery in recent weeks/months (?), some have interestingly noted the Parts Content Information sticker on the vehicle cites the ICE as coming from US.  Last we heard publicly, it was only built at Chihuahua Engine Plant (#1) until late 2022 when Valencia Engine Plant (Spain) brought it online for the European market (Kuga)...  Is this erroneous, or does it indicate that either ChEP1 cannot build enough of these engines or to the desired quality level?  So far, haven't seen anyone post a sticker on the engine confirming it was built in the US, unless someone here knows which plant that might be.

 

As for the engine, it's not been the exact same one on this platform the entire time.  The current version launched with 2020 Escape, just before the pandemic in 2019.  They started off with a 2.3L, then bumped it up to 2.5L for 2009.  Fusion picked up that same 2.5L the next year.  Both carried it through 2012.  In 2013, Escape 3G was launched with no hybrid option.  Instead, C-Max took over its role alongside Fusion until US production of C-Max Hybrid/Energi were phased out alongside Focus at MAP.  During that transition in 2013, they also launched the "Energi" PHEV variant, using the same ICE but a bigger battery pack, etc.

 

For MY2020, Fusion was winding down on the 2.0L variant while Escape brought back a 2.5L, this time with PHEV variant.  Given some of the issues Ford has acknowledged revolve around crankshaft machining (including 22S10 that only inspected/replaced a small batch of crankshafts/long blocks), it seems that the line they activated to bring back the 2.5L has had some... issues from the start.

 

Atkinson-cycle engine timelines:

 

2005-2008 Escape 2.3L

2009-2012 Escape 2.5L

2020-2023+ Escape 2.5L (FHEV + PHEV)

 

2010-2012 Fusion 2.3L

2013-2020 Fusion 2.0L (FHEV + PHEV)

 

2013-2018 C-Max 2.0L (FHEV + PHEV)

Edited by j2sys
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said:

It's soul crushing to put it mildly. The 2.5 ecvt has been extremely reliable in literally everything else Ford's ever put it in. That's one of the reasons why I was ok buying a first model year, something I've never done.

 

 I was like, it should be fine, most of the parts in the maverick have been around forever even if the truck is new. Just my luck that the 2.5 for the first time stumbles, and it's on a product I own. I'm holding out hope that buried somewhere in there, it's still the same bulletproof 2.5 we all know and love, and that after this recall, and maybe a few others, it'll become a super reliable product. 

 

My truck has been an absolute peach in the 6 months we've owned it. But it is concerning. 

 

Was finally looking for a known durable, reliable transmission after my DCT and AX4N/4F50B experiences.  Was not expecting Ford to have potentially widespread "isolated engine manufacturing issues" for years that they would take years to acknowledge and try to find their way out of actually inspecting/replacing if necessary...  Here's hoping that it's not as bad as they're making it sound when read between the lines.

Edited by j2sys

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why are we talking about trannys isn’t this an engine problem with overheating/fluid loss?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It’s hard to tell for sure but if they’re building and delivering new ones that indicates they at least think they have the problem fixed on new builds but as you guys say they’re probably trying to find a fix for existing vehicles that doesn’t require engine replacement.

 

This is where I’d like to see Ford offer trade in at full market value with x plan pricing plus a $3k discount towards any new Ford.  Or just do a buyback at market value.  

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, akirby said:

Why are we talking about trannys isn’t this an engine problem with overheating/fluid loss?

 

We're talking about the 2.5L Duratec 25 Atkinson Cycle engine used in Escape/Corsair/Maverick FHEV/PHEV, which Ford acknowledges had "isolated engine manufacturing issues" that could lead to block breach/engine failure and fire.  Despite previously isolating a small batch of ~200 2021 Escape Hybrid units that might've had improperly machined crankshafts, and issuing recall 22S10 to inspect and replace as needed, Ford seems to be acknowledging that there have been ongoing quality issues building this engine at ChEP1 since it was launched in 2019.  They did complete some "robustness actions" by September 1, 2022, which they believe addressed the engine failure risks, but still recalled all production through 3 dates in May 2023.

 

This engine is paired with 2 variants of the HF45 eCVT, which, like the present Duratec 25 engine, has a long history of being a highly reliable product in its previous iterations.  At least until they forgot how to build a crankshaft to spec...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, akirby said:

It’s hard to tell for sure but if they’re building and delivering new ones that indicates they at least think they have the problem fixed on new builds but as you guys say they’re probably trying to find a fix for existing vehicles that doesn’t require engine replacement.

 

This is where I’d like to see Ford offer trade in at full market value with x plan pricing plus a $3k discount towards any new Ford.  Or just do a buyback at market value.  

 

That would work out better for Maverick owners than Escape owners, since Mavericks are still inflated well above MSRP.  To get a comparable 2023 Escape Hybrid to my 2022, at the same AZ price level I used previously, it would be a much greater than $3,000 difference, before factoring in the higher financing rates (unless Ford Credit did a collateral swap).

 

That said, for the right numbers, I would not say no to that...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, DeluxeStang said:

 The 2.5 ecvt has been extremely reliable in literally everything else Ford's ever put it in. That's one of the reasons why I was ok buying a first model year, something I've never done. 

 

1 hour ago, j2sys said:

Was finally looking for a known durable, reliable transmission after my DCT and AX4N/4F50B experiences.  Was not expecting Ford to have potentially widespread "isolated engine manufacturing issues" for years that they would take years to acknowledge and try to find their way out of actually inspecting/replacing if necessary...  Here's hoping that it's not as bad as they're making it sound when read between the lines.


This is what I meant about the tranny discussion.  But rereading it I think DeluxeStang was talking about the entire powertrain not just the ecvt.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, akirby said:

 


This is what I meant about the tranny discussion.  But rereading it I think DeluxeStang was talking about the entire powertrain not just the ecvt.

 

Yes, and I was mentioning that I was looking forward to having a reliable, durable powertrain having dealt with too many of Ford's questionable transmissions, not expecting to have concerns with an engine that has shown to be reliable as well.  :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, akirby said:

 


This is what I meant about the tranny discussion.  But rereading it I think DeluxeStang was talking about the entire powertrain not just the ecvt.

Yeah, to clarify, I'm referring to the entire powertrain. It's a fantastic setup overall, and like I said, I'm confident that once they perform these recalls, it'll be a great vehicle. But it's still frustrating that the 2.5 has been basically flawless up until this point, giving me a false sense of confidence going into our maverick purchase. Then all these issues pop up out of nowhere.

 

It would be like if Toyota still made the 2jz in their modern cars, and someone bought a modern supra.expecting it to be rock solid, then having to deal with all of this. Recalls don't bother me like repairs do, but I just hope this doesn't become a pattern. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, ANTAUS said:

..."Ford has had 27 recalls so far this year, affecting 3.1 million vehicles"....

 

At this rate, Ford's next new model might as well be named "Recall". The Maverick/Escape/Corsair hybrid recall comes just a couple days after Ford announced a recall pertaining to underhood fires in 2015-2019 Lincoln MKC affecting over 142,000 vehicles. Ford Motor Company Recalls Certain 2015-2019 Model Year Lincoln MKC For Potential Under Hood Fire Concern | Ford Media Center

  • Sad 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The latest NHTSA investigation (no official recall yet) gives new meaning to "Ford Escape". Ford Escape SUVs Investigated over Doors That Could Pop Open (caranddriver.com)

 

The Ford Escape is under scrutiny from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration because of an issue with a front door weld that could cause a door to open suddenly while the vehicle is in motion. The problem affects 2020 and 2021 Ford Escape and Escape Hybrid SUVs, and any recall could involve 346,071 vehicles.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a 2021 Escape Hybrid. I have received two safety recall letters, the first in Aug 2022 and the second in June 2023. As far as I can tell (I am not a dealer or mechanic), these address the same safety issue. Both letters state Ford is working on this issue and that when parts become available, I will get another letter -- the fix anticipated Oct 2023 (last letter).  My dealer says no fix in sight and we just have to wait for Ford.  So a safety recall has been in effect for more than one year with no fix in sight????  I want my money back. This is criminal. This will impact resale value should I decide to sell or trade-in.

 

In reading the posts, it is my impression that Ford is dragging its feet.  What is the general opinion?  Will Ford resolve this anytime soon? I am worried.

 

Thanks for your help

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/7/2023 at 7:56 AM, j2sys said:

 

Sure seems like they're either unsure what the exact problem is, or, more likely, what they are willing to do about it.  22S47 attempted to address "fluid dynamics" to decrease the risk that engine failure would lead to engine fire.  All they did was take away some of our AGS vanes and punch a few holes in the bottom for ventilation, which Ford acknowledges in the docs linked above, didn't really do anything.  Who would've thought?  It's about as effective as trying to address engine failure with software.  Turns out, vehicles that had these "modifications" performed - whether via recall or as a running change at the factory - still catch fire when the engine fails.  They seem to be looking for an alternative to inspecting and potentially replacing up to in excess of 100,000 long blocks (which could easily exceed $100,000,000 if enough need replacement).  At the same time, they're basically telling drivers that there's an unnecessarily high risk of failure/fire due to "isolated engine manufacturing issues".

 

They also go on to acknowledge that they were having issues building the engines to an acceptable quality level, particularly focused around the crankshafts.  Apparently building crankshafts is new for Ford...  They seem fairly confident that after they finally completed their "robustness actions" on/before September 1, 2022, the risk of engine failure is significantly reduced - so far, they haven't had any reports of engine failure from engines built after this date, but it has only been ~9 months.

 

Any units that have been built before the 3 listed dates in May are supposed to be on hold indefinitely.  With Ford, we should really assume they mean there won't be any additional info until end of Q4, meaning by the end of the year.  Then, they need to actually get any necessary parts available to dealers and we'll need to get appointments to bring in the affected vehicles for whatever the "remedy" is this time.  Just hope it's better than making a few holes to improve "fluid dynamics" like they tried to use to get out of properly addressing the units with "isolated engine manufacturing issues".  That said, several over on MTC have reported that there newer 2023s don't yet list the recall at https://www.ford.com/support/recalls/ so as far as the dealer is concerned, it's not actually been recalled (yet).  Thus, they've been able to take delivery.

 

Speaking of those taking delivery in recent weeks/months (?), some have interestingly noted the Parts Content Information sticker on the vehicle cites the ICE as coming from US.  Last we heard publicly, it was only built at Chihuahua Engine Plant (#1) until late 2022 when Valencia Engine Plant (Spain) brought it online for the European market (Kuga)...  Is this erroneous, or does it indicate that either ChEP1 cannot build enough of these engines or to the desired quality level?  So far, haven't seen anyone post a sticker on the engine confirming it was built in the US, unless someone here knows which plant that might be.

 

As for the engine, it's not been the exact same one on this platform the entire time.  The current version launched with 2020 Escape, just before the pandemic in 2019.  They started off with a 2.3L, then bumped it up to 2.5L for 2009.  Fusion picked up that same 2.5L the next year.  Both carried it through 2012.  In 2013, Escape 3G was launched with no hybrid option.  Instead, C-Max took over its role alongside Fusion until US production of C-Max Hybrid/Energi were phased out alongside Focus at MAP.  During that transition in 2013, they also launched the "Energi" PHEV variant, using the same ICE but a bigger battery pack, etc.

 

For MY2020, Fusion was winding down on the 2.0L variant while Escape brought back a 2.5L, this time with PHEV variant.  Given some of the issues Ford has acknowledged revolve around crankshaft machining (including 22S10 that only inspected/replaced a small batch of crankshafts/long blocks), it seems that the line they activated to bring back the 2.5L has had some... issues from the start.

 

Atkinson-cycle engine timelines:

 

2005-2008 Escape 2.3L

2009-2012 Escape 2.5L

2020-2023+ Escape 2.5L (FHEV + PHEV)

 

2010-2012 Fusion 2.3L

2013-2020 Fusion 2.0L (FHEV + PHEV)

 

2013-2018 C-Max 2.0L (FHEV + PHEV)

I'm fairly certain the 2009-12 escape uses the same hybrid 2.5 as the maverick, just with some tweaks. My uncle literally owns one, so there's different an escape hybrid from that era, and it uses a 2.5 Atkinson cycle engine. 

 

I recently spoke with a dealership rep about this issue. They said they're still waiting on this part, but they should be able to perform the necessary remedies for these fire recalls in the near future. I assume that means new crankshafts, or even entire engines for mavericks that are defective. Added bonus points if they extend the warranty on the maverick and escape hybrids, they've kinda put us through hell, so extending the warranty on the hybrid components from 8, to 10 or 12 years would go a long way in boosting consumer confidence and satisfaction. 

Edited by DeluxeStang

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/17/2023 at 12:19 PM, KCinPD said:

In reading the posts, it is my impression that Ford is dragging its feet.  What is the general opinion?  Will Ford resolve this anytime soon? I am worried.

 

You are correct KCinPD. Timely resolution to customer issues is not something Ford is known for.

  • Angry 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, I am surprised there has been no class-action activity given the length of time the issue has been public. If they sell these cars knowing there is an unresolved safety issue, it's a lawsuit waiting to happen. I will wait with bated breath for the end-of-the-quarter announcement. If no solution is forthcoming, I will contact my lawyer and take steps to get rid of the car. This infuriates me. 

  • Sad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi, does anyone have any new info on how and when Ford will address this problem?  They stated by end of the quarter/year but I have not received any communication yet and we are closing in on Dec 31. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, KCinPD said:

Hi, does anyone have any new info on how and when Ford will address this problem?  They stated by end of the quarter/year but I have not received any communication yet and we are closing in on Dec 31. 

We haven't heard anything yet. I doubt it will anything super drastic when the fix finally comes. For instance, there's no way they're gonna replace the engines in 125k vehicles, especially when only 300 or so vehicles are actually defective. 

 

I'd imagine new camshafts for those 300, maybe a good faith extended warranty program for all the other hybrid owners or something like that. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

We haven't heard anything yet. I doubt it will anything super drastic when the fix finally comes. For instance, there's no way they're gonna replace the engines in 125k vehicles, especially when only 300 or so vehicles are actually defective. 

 

I'd imagine new camshafts for those 300, maybe a good faith extended warranty program for all the other hybrid owners or something like that. 

DeluxeStang - Thanks for the info.  Can they actually tell what vehicles are defective? If they can, why don't they recall to inspect and clear a large number of them making their owners sleep better? I know they did that for some cars but why not all?  Or do they really know what actually is causing the problem?  Something ain't right. 

 

Extending the warranty does not address the risk that my car will catch on fire with me in it potentially killing or maiming me or stranding me in the middle of the desert. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, KCinPD said:

 

DeluxeStang - Thanks for the info.  Can they actually tell what vehicles are defective? If they can, why don't they recall to inspect and clear a large number of them making their owners sleep better? I know they did that for some cars but why not all?  Or do they really know what actually is causing the problem?  Something ain't right. 

 

Extending the warranty does not address the risk that my car will catch on fire with me in it potentially killing or maiming me or stranding me in the middle of the desert. 

Regarding the cause of the issue, I believe it's a bad batch of improperly manufactured camshafts. Can they tell which ones are defective? Yes, I presume they've already isolated which engines specifically have this defect, due to the fact that they're able to narrow it down to a few hundred engines. From what I've heard from people who are more knowledgeable than me on the matter, they can tell which ones need to be replaced based on performing an oil analysis. They're just waiting on the parts now, that's what I've been told. 

 

Rest assured amigo, in the extremely unlikely chance that your maverick caught on fire, you would almost certainly be able to get out in time. You would have a very, very lucrative lawsuit on your hands at that point. So don't worry about it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×