Ford July 2023 Sales - Up 5.9% overall

[Rick73]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

You just use the engine for that.  

That would defeat the purpose. 

[jpd80]

1 hour ago, Rick73 said:

That would defeat the purpose. 

A lot of those Ford PHEVs didn’t have heat pumps, so would require the engine running to heat the vehicle.

[Rick73]

11 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

A lot of those Ford PHEVs didn’t have heat pumps, so would require the engine running to heat the vehicle.

Thanks jpd80, so when PHEV is operating as a BEV, on battery power only, does it not have any electric heat?  Or does engine come on any time cab needs heat?

 

With many PHEV having 12~20 kWh of battery capacity, I would have thought even a 1~2 kW space heater could run for a while.  Obviously a heat pump would be more efficient in mild temperatures, which is why they are being used more in newer BEVs.  I expect same units could carry over to PHEV to extend their electric range.

[silvrsvt]

16 minutes ago, Rick73 said:

With many PHEV having 12~20 kWh of battery capacity, I would have thought even a 1~2 kW space heater could run for a while.  Obviously a heat pump would be more efficient in mild temperatures, which is why they are being used more in newer BEVs.  I expect same units could carry over to PHEV to extend their electric range.

 

But is added complexity of adding a heat pump really going to be worth it? 

 

[jpd80]

1 hour ago, Rick73 said:

Thanks jpd80, so when PHEV is operating as a BEV, on battery power only, does it not have any electric heat?  Or does engine come on any time cab needs heat?

 

With many PHEV having 12~20 kWh of battery capacity, I would have thought even a 1~2 kW space heater could run for a while.  Obviously a heat pump would be more efficient in mild temperatures, which is why they are being used more in newer BEVs.  I expect same units could carry over to PHEV to extend their electric range.

Correct, I would assume that there’s an electric heater for when the engine is not running but my point is that a lot of the PHEVs being extensions of ICE vehicles will have strategies to cover needs when the ICE is not running but you can imagine, those rip into the available battery range. Running at highway speed with say 30 miles of range is only going to give around half an hour’s travelling but in traffic congestion , that may increase to an hour or more. On the negative side, AC, heaters, older head lights ect all drain that battery range.

[Rangers09]

9 hours ago, Rick73 said:

Can your PHEV keep the cabin cool or warm for extended period while parked and NOT plugged in?  In other words, will it allow using battery capacity to power air conditioner or heat for hours at a time?  Or overnight?

 

I don’t have much use for a PHEV to meet my driving needs (not a good fit), but have been waiting a long time for a PHEV van that can use battery to power A/C and heat, and also Pro Power Onboard.  When Farley mentioned new hybrids were on the way, and with unexpected capabilities by using batteries for other than driving, I was encouraged that maybe Ford would finally manufacture a plug-in hybrid Transit ideal for camping in remote locations off the grid.

 

The PHEV Transit Custom in Europe already has all the hardware in place, and would only need software to allow a camp mode if not already included.  Tesla allows a camp mode and doesn’t even have a way to recharge battery like a PHEV does.  If not Transit Custom, maybe the full-size Transit with PHEV drivetrain will become a reality in September for North America.

 

Affirmative, we can run the A/C while driving on battery. It does reduce the already fairly low range, but we still have the engine available for longer trips, so we can use A/C for hours at a time.

[akirby]

7 hours ago, Rick73 said:

That would defeat the purpose. 

Trying to use battery power like that in a PHEV with a small battery is silly when you have an ICE that can run for days.

[silvrsvt]

32 minutes ago, akirby said:

Trying to use battery power like that in a PHEV with a small battery is silly when you have an ICE that can run for days.

 

Apparently Hyundai offers a heat pump on its PHEVs from a quick search to help with range. Seems like overkill IMO

[akirby]

34 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Apparently Hyundai offers a heat pump on its PHEVs from a quick search to help with range. Seems like overkill IMO

I was referring to this from Rick73 where he wants to use the battery to heat or cool the vehicle for hours while parked.

 

Quote

Can your PHEV keep the cabin cool or warm for extended period while parked and NOT plugged in?  In other words, will it allow using battery capacity to power air conditioner or heat for hours at a time?  Or overnight?

 

[Rick73]

57 minutes ago, akirby said:

Trying to use battery power like that in a PHEV with a small battery is silly when you have an ICE that can run for days.

Sorry, apparently context of my post was not clear.  I was referring to Ford making a Transit or Transit Custom PHEV van that would be easier to build into an RV for camping applications.

 

When companies like Winnebago or Coachmen upgrade a regular ICE van into a camper van, they often add approximately 7.5 kWh of lithium batteries (or more), plus a second alternator to charge lithium batteries, plus automated engine start to charge batteries when they get low, etc.  They also have to add an additional RV air conditioner when the vehicle’s isn’t being used. Overall it’s a great idea but the quality of design and build is usually very poor and systems are often unreliable.  Mostly they are very expensive compared to what it costs Ford.  And Ford would design and mass produce a system 100 times better.

 

While camping in many National Parks without electricity, running a generator or idling the van’s engine is not allowed.  A PHEV van with well over 10~15 kWh of battery should be able to power the van’s air conditioner for many hours, which is what latest RV camper vans do with added lithium batteries of less capacity.  Best part is a typical PHEV can recharge battery much faster so it would take a fraction of time compared to what’s available today.

 

The need is there and it’s not silly at all if trying to capture greater share of RV and Vanlife market.  Most hardware in van should already be there in a PHEV, and it would save RV builder a lot of money and work.  It’s an opportunity similar to very successful Pro Power Onboard except that Ford hasn’t capitalized on it yet.  Hopefully Farley’s comment includes a design for RV use similar to above.

 

[akirby]

9 hours ago, Rick73 said:

Sorry, apparently context of my post was not clear.  I was referring to Ford making a Transit or Transit Custom PHEV van that would be easier to build into an RV for camping applications.

 

When companies like Winnebago or Coachmen upgrade a regular ICE van into a camper van, they often add approximately 7.5 kWh of lithium batteries (or more), plus a second alternator to charge lithium batteries, plus automated engine start to charge batteries when they get low, etc.  They also have to add an additional RV air conditioner when the vehicle’s isn’t being used. Overall it’s a great idea but the quality of design and build is usually very poor and systems are often unreliable.  Mostly they are very expensive compared to what it costs Ford.  And Ford would design and mass produce a system 100 times better.

 

While camping in many National Parks without electricity, running a generator or idling the van’s engine is not allowed.  A PHEV van with well over 10~15 kWh of battery should be able to power the van’s air conditioner for many hours, which is what latest RV camper vans do with added lithium batteries of less capacity.  Best part is a typical PHEV can recharge battery much faster so it would take a fraction of time compared to what’s available today.

 

The need is there and it’s not silly at all if trying to capture greater share of RV and Vanlife market.  Most hardware in van should already be there in a PHEV, and it would save RV builder a lot of money and work.  It’s an opportunity similar to very successful Pro Power Onboard except that Ford hasn’t capitalized on it yet.  Hopefully Farley’s comment includes a design for RV use similar to above.

 

Well that’s completely different than passenger vehicle PHEVs.

 

But without hookups and if you can’t run the engine or a generator how do you recharge the batteries?

 

I think a full BEV with a backup generator would work better especially if it had 400-500 mile range.

[Rick73]

33 minutes ago, akirby said:

Well that’s completely different than passenger vehicle PHEVs.

 

But without hookups and if you can’t run the engine or a generator how do you recharge the batteries?

 

I think a full BEV with a backup generator would work better especially if it had 400-500 mile range.

Would be very similar to F-150 Hybrid with Pro Power Onboard except PHEV battery is roughly 10 times the capacity (or greater).  At light loads PPO allows F-150 hybrid to power loads from battery only, and when battery gets low the engine starts to recharge quickly (lots of charging power available relative to ICE), then turns off according to reports.

 

Many campgrounds allow one hour of generator time in morning and one in evening, but I expect many van campers will drive their RV vehicle during the day which tops off battery.  A very common limitation owners worry about is having enough battery capacity to power air conditioner overnight, hence why +/- 7.5 kWh of lithium is a common capacity to be added.  Some like Winnebago offer greater battery capacity option up in 12 kWh range, but at that level charging with a second alternator takes many hours.  A hybrid like F-150 is rated to charge much much faster, though I expect engineers would limit rate somewhat to reduce noise.

 

I’m sure this sounds worse that it could be for an OEM to actually incorporate.  Keep in mind that F-150 hybrid PPO makes up to 7.2 kW of electricity, and a typical RV air conditioner can cool a van with as little as 1 kW of power, and even less at night.  And since PHEVs already have an electric Air Conditioner, there may not be a need to add another just for camping.  To me the simplicity, cost savings and OEM reliability would make such an option very successful. 
 

For what it’s worth, RV manufacturers price lithium option as high as $20,000 MSRP, and that doesn’t include cost to add an RV air conditioner or inverter to do what Pro Power Onboard does.

[GearheadGrrrl]

Rick 73 is right, I own a Transit Connect which gets used for camping and I'm on some van camping forums and dysfunctional vehicle electrical control systems are a frequent source of frustration. For a start, the van makers seem to think we want all the lights turned on every time we open a door or hatch- Not the response you want when you go to take a leak in the middle of the night and can actually kill a battery. But when we want power for menial tasks like keeping the cell modem on we get cut off after just a few minutes. 

 

This is a real opportunity the industry is missing, especially Ford who usually are up on trends and capitalize on them. A factory built hybrid with an RV version of Pro Power Onboard solves a bunch of problems at less cost that aftermarket systems while making life easier for the up fitters, who would then make Ford their 1st choice. Is adapting existing Ford tech to new uses like this too much for Ford to handle now?

[rperez817]

On 8/5/2023 at 11:19 AM, rperez817 said:

Here's info from a pickup truck prospective buyer survey that Cox Automotive did a couple years ago summarizing attributes that are most influential, along with survey participants' perceptions of F-150 Lightning, Hummer EV pickup, Rivian R1T, and Tesla Cybertruck for those attributes.

 

Cox Automotive's latest data shows that F-150 Lightning continues to "outshine the competition on all factors".

 

[Rick73]

17 hours ago, rperez817 said:

Cox Automotive's latest data shows that F-150 Lightning continues to "outshine the competition on all factors".

Does that address BEV pickup truck category’s overall strength?  Probably not.  BEV sales data for 2022 indicate Rivian and Lightning in 10th and 11th place respectively, with Tesla Y and 3 at top with sales volume that exceeded next dozen vehicles combined.  With new Cybertruck and Silverado coming out soon we should know if BEV trucks will follow their ICE counterparts’ success at top of their respective sales list, or whether efficient BEVs remain on top.

 

Lucid’s CEO and CTO mentioned BEV mass-market adoption depends on efficiency and small battery packs in order to achieve low costs.  This sounds much like what Farley has also said, but Peter Rawlinson goes into more detail, mentioning his vision for BEVs that can achieve up to 6 miles per kWh, and with range of not more than 250 miles.  These are great goals that I believe can be achieved, but are polar opposite of upcoming pickups like Silverado.  We’ll find out soon enough which type of BEV will be most successful in marketplace.

 

https://insideevs.com/news/675113/future-mass-market-evs-need-250-miles-range-lucid-ceo/
 

[rperez817]

3 hours ago, Rick73 said:

Does that address BEV pickup truck category’s overall strength?

 

No, not the overall category. Of the 6 BEV pickup trucks that Cox Automotive specified in its latest survey, Ford and Rivian currently dominate the sales charts (Cybertruck, Silverado EV, Ram 1500 REV, and Hummer EV are either not in production yet or sell in very limited quantities). Over the next couple years as production for all of these BEV pickup trucks ramps up dramatically, we'll have a better gauge of the strongest players in what's expected to be the combination of 2 of the hottest components of the automotive industry, pickup trucks and BEV.

 

But for now, F-150 Lightning is the only BEV pickup truck in which the gap between consumer appeal (before product reveal) and consumer consideration (after product reveal) is positive in the Cox Automotive survey.

[jpd80]

On 8/7/2023 at 11:56 AM, Rick73 said:

Sorry, apparently context of my post was not clear.  I was referring to Ford making a Transit or Transit Custom PHEV van that would be easier to build into an RV for camping applications.

 

When companies like Winnebago or Coachmen upgrade a regular ICE van into a camper van, they often add approximately 7.5 kWh of lithium batteries (or more), plus a second alternator to charge lithium batteries, plus automated engine start to charge batteries when they get low, etc.  They also have to add an additional RV air conditioner when the vehicle’s isn’t being used. Overall it’s a great idea but the quality of design and build is usually very poor and systems are often unreliable.  Mostly they are very expensive compared to what it costs Ford.  And Ford would design and mass produce a system 100 times better.

 

While camping in many National Parks without electricity, running a generator or idling the van’s engine is not allowed.  A PHEV van with well over 10~15 kWh of battery should be able to power the van’s air conditioner for many hours, which is what latest RV camper vans do with added lithium batteries of less capacity.  Best part is a typical PHEV can recharge battery much faster so it would take a fraction of time compared to what’s available today.

 

The need is there and it’s not silly at all if trying to capture greater share of RV and Vanlife market.  Most hardware in van should already be there in a PHEV, and it would save RV builder a lot of money and work.  It’s an opportunity similar to very successful Pro Power Onboard except that Ford hasn’t capitalized on it yet.  Hopefully Farley’s comment includes a design for RV use similar to above.

 

Ford is supplying Transit as a stripped chassis to a company building vans for postal contracts

so it’s not out of the question for Ford to supply similar to RV makers, maybe this is counter intuitive 

to already supplied full sized stripped chassis F53/F59 for bus and RVs?