Bill Ford Also Thinks EVs Have Become Politicized

[rperez817]

19 minutes ago, Rick73 said:

Doing nothing is better than doing the wrong thing.

 

In many cases doing nothing is the wrong thing. The English philosopher Sydney Smith said "It is the greatest of all mistakes to do nothing because you can only do little".

[Rick73]

17 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

In many cases doing nothing is the wrong thing. The English philosopher Sydney Smith said "It is the greatest of all mistakes to do nothing because you can only do little".

Totally different situation that doesn’t apply to my point.  Different context entirely.

[rperez817]

11 minutes ago, Rick73 said:

Totally different situation that doesn’t apply to my point.  Different context entirely.

 

Could you clarify the context? I'm thinking about these 2 contexts.

• silvrsvt's statement "people latch on to things that aren't perfect and attack them when good enough or an improvement is better than doing nothing"
• Bill Ford's statement in the article from the original post "I never thought I would see the day when our products were so heavily politicized"

Going back to Smith's quote, it would be a huge mistake for Ford to halt or slow down its planned ramp up of BEV because of ongoing tussles among politicians, or because BEV aren't "perfect".

[GearheadGrrrl]

5 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

U.S. DOT developed a toolkit to help rural communities throughout the U.S. develop the infrastructure associated with successful BEV deployment and adoption. As that infrastructure is built, and as more and more rural Americans enjoy the benefits that BEV provide, the "political football" or "political hate" associated with BEV should abate. Charging Forward: A Toolkit for Planning and Funding Rural Electric Mobility Infrastructure | US Department of Transportation

 

 

 

I'm on a small town city council and have already researched putting in a charger- It's such a bad deal I won't even bring it before the full council.

[jpd80]

And this is the problem, the necessary pre steps required to support all forms of EV charging infrastructure are not in place and probably won’t be into the considerable future. At best, 240 volt home charging probably supports short range PHEVs. 

[Gurgeh]

15 hours ago, LSchicago said:

Urban people see EV's as a choice, and a way to ease the higher urban gas prices. Rural people see it not as a choice, but something that is forced on them. Politics are very much related to Urban/Rural areas too. Majority of Urban dwellers vote Blue, while the majority of Rural dwellers vote Red. And why the political hate for EV's was born. For me, I am pretty neutral. I won't try an EV for some years, if I do. They may become more practical for road trips. Until then, my little Maverick Hybrid is my new Road trip vehicle. 

...and yet, I'll bet that in the urban setting, with so many folks living in apartments and condos that aren't amenable to overnight charging, you'll find a higher percentage of the population that can't really consider getting into an EV right now. EVs really are the future. But the present is going to last a little longer than many have been expecting.

[Rick73]

5 hours ago, jpd80 said:

And this is the problem, the necessary pre steps required to support all forms of EV charging infrastructure are not in place and probably won’t be into the considerable future. At best, 240 volt home charging probably supports short range PHEVs. 

In fairness, to remain objective, the issue is more about whether owners have access to 240 VAC electrical power at home at all, not so much whether it’s for a PHEV or BEV.  In US at least, if you can provide 40A service to 240V charger in your home garage, it can easily charge a Tesla Model 3 overnight, as an example, providing over 200 miles of driving range; which is far more than typical 12,000-mile-a-year driver will average.

 

The issue I see is not whether there is power for PHEV versus BEV, but rather if there is enough grid generation capacity during peak periods, and also how clean is that incremental power being used to charge millions of BEVs overnight.  Granted, the grid is getting cleaner, partly due to renewable power, but that’s not keeping up with growth, forcing fossil fuel generation expansion.

 

The deeper we dig into electrification details based on present reality, not future theoretical system-wide upgrades, the more issues come up requiring “political” involvement in order to address  them.  Politicizing electrification is unavoidable IMO.

 

I still think BEV have a place short term, particularly in households with multiple vehicles, but that growth rate will slow considerably; and also that manufacturers will shift towards more affordable vehicles (like Tesla is doing already).

[LSchicago]

2 hours ago, Gurgeh said:

...and yet, I'll bet that in the urban setting, with so many folks living in apartments and condos that aren't amenable to overnight charging, you'll find a higher percentage of the population that can't really consider getting into an EV right now. EVs really are the future. But the present is going to last a little longer than many have been expecting.

 

I live near Chicago. 47% of the housing units in the city are Homes that are owner occupied. Many people in larger apartment complexes or Condos have the ability to charge where they live. Many will be able to charge at their jobs. A good amount of apartment renters can't afford to buy a new car, much less a new EV. But that still leaves about 2/3rds of the population in the city who could adopt easily into the EV market. Only about 5% have so far, so there will be lots of growth past that number as the years go on.

 

In My town of 10,000 people, 59% of dwellings are single family homes. 34% are renter occupied Apts/condos, and 7% vacant. I live 3 miles from the Chicago city limits. I am not a fan of EV's, but it's possible I might consider one in 5-10 years. I Already have 240V in my garage with a 100 Amp panel. 

Edited October 27, 2023 by LSchicago

[akirby]

21 minutes ago, LSchicago said:

 

I live near Chicago. 47% of the housing units in the city are Homes that are owner occupied. Many people in larger apartment complexes or Condos have the ability to charge where they live. Many will be able to charge at their jobs. A good amount of apartment renters can't afford to buy a new car, much less a new EV. But that still leaves about 2/3rds of the population in the city who could adopt easily into the EV market. Only about 5% have so far, so there will be lots of growth past that number as the years go on. I am not a fan of EV's, but it's possible I might consider one in 5-10 years. 

How are apartment dwellers able to charge at home?  I can see having a few chargers but that won’t work if everyone has a BEV and needs to plug in a few times per week.  Condos with garages could do it but either way you have the issue of whether the grid supply to the complex is sufficient.  
 

I think most apartment and condo dwellers and people in older homes and older areas will need fast accessible public charging.

[LSchicago]

13 minutes ago, akirby said:

How are apartment dwellers able to charge at home?  I can see having a few chargers but that won’t work if everyone has a BEV and needs to plug in a few times per week.  Condos with garages could do it but either way you have the issue of whether the grid supply to the complex is sufficient.  
 

I think most apartment and condo dwellers and people in older homes and older areas will need fast accessible public charging.

 

Many of the larger Apartment complexes have EV chargers on the property. That said, most people who can't afford to buy a house will not be buying EV's either. I keep hearing of grid issues. That's just not a thing in my area. Illinois sells a lot of power to other states, as we produce more than we need. More and more houses installing Solar too. 

 

A local restaurant installed a 108KW wind Turbine. That type of investment is not for everyone, but it does give them all the free power they want, and steady income on what they sell to ComEd as excess. Going Green | The Great Escape (greatescaperestaurant.com)

[akirby]

19 minutes ago, LSchicago said:

 

Many of the larger Apartment complexes have EV chargers on the property. That said, most people who can't afford to buy a house will not be buying EV's either. I keep hearing of grid issues. That's just not a thing in my area. Illinois sells a lot of power to other states, as we produce more than we need. More and more houses installing Solar too. 

 

A local restaurant installed a 108KW wind Turbine. That type of investment is not for everyone, but it does give them all the free power they want, and steady income on what they sell to ComEd as excess. Going Green | The Great Escape (greatescaperestaurant.com)

There are many reports of specific areas where the local grid can’t support the upgrades needed for mass charging.  Not a grid issue per se, more of a distribution /substation problem.

[Rick73]

Texas not long ago had to get a waiver to operate old generating capacity or risk widespread rolling blackouts.  Grid transmission and distribution is an issue, but in many places so is power generating capacity at certain times of year.

 

For example, we keep hearing how great Superchargers are because of charging speed, and they are, but let’s not forget that 250 kW Superchargers require a tremendous amount of power.  Four Tesla Superchargers alone require a Megawatt of power, and when we have millions on BEVs in the future driving long distances on special occasions (holidays, evacuations, etc.), power demand will be off the charts.  Assuming we have enough chargers to start with.  It can be done, but will require huge investment that will require time.

 

 

 

 

[jpd80]

Which is why educating buyers about the virtues of gasoline hybrids is an easy sell with the right products.

If interest in Ford’s BEVs is reducing, then start pushing efficient ICE and hybrid vehicles, divert battery  production to them.

Edited October 27, 2023 by jpd80