DCK Posted December 25, 2007 Share Posted December 25, 2007 Looking at those numbers again, RAV4 look the worse compared to the Escape in that most of the RAV4 fleet sales go to unprofitable Rental and very litte to commercial or government which are more profitable. Escape fleet had half going to more profitable government and commercial. For these figures to mean much though, you need to see the whole year, not part of the year. So the Rav4 having 17k extra retail sales and having 2k less rental fleet sales looks worst?............................ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sullynd Posted December 25, 2007 Share Posted December 25, 2007 Seem like everybody thinks that people who bought a RAV4 didn't buy an Escape. Well, with the advent of the V-6 RAV, maybe some of those sales are from people who didn't buy Highlanders. And likewise I wonder how many Edge buyers would have bought an Escape prior to the Edge's availability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious1Auto Posted December 25, 2007 Share Posted December 25, 2007 (edited) Looking at total number of 68,000 Escapes, that would amount to about four months of sales or so. The Escape averages about 15,000-16,000/month. Some months probably have more fleet sales than others. So over twelve months I would put fleet sales between 20-25%. I would think Ford would not want to have Escape be more than 20% fleet any year. Not good. But 20% is at least within reason. 28% would be too high if it was for one year. Also looks like RAV4 is getting up there in fleet sales which is much higher than usual for Toyota. Guess they want that Number 1 spot badly. 20-25% fleet sales does not make the Escape a fleet queen since 75% or more are retail. How can you make any determination as to what % should be aloud when you don't know the cost base! No fleet sales are good becqause it impacts the profit margins and resale value, but without knowing what it costs to build and market any product in question you cannot know what % of fleet sales are acceptable to sustain a profit! Edited December 26, 2007 by Furious1Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomServo92 Posted December 25, 2007 Share Posted December 25, 2007 Basically, you need a full years fleet sales numbers to get the whole picture. I believe most fleet sales occur early in the year so the first half numbers are usually heavier than the rest of the year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted December 25, 2007 Author Share Posted December 25, 2007 Basically, you need a full years fleet sales numbers to get the whole picture. I believe most fleet sales occur early in the year so the first half numbers are usually heavier than the rest of the year. Yes, that was my point also. Another good way to look at this is look at government and business sales, especially in MI but other states as well. Many municipalities will only buy domestic brands, especially in MI, but in many other states as well. So domestics have that business locked up and that is GOOD. Many businesses will give their employes domestic vehicles only and that is GOOD. Many companies that call on the the Big Three don't want their employes driving foreign. That is GOOD. We would all bitch if they bought foreign. I see tons of Ford vehicles going out of Bill Brown Ford to U.S. Goverenment. Bill Brown is major fleet sales dealer around here and I do notice that some months nothing is going out and other months a lot. Livonia, MI bought a whole fleet of 2008 Escapes for its municipal department and that is GOOD. Better Escapes than CRV's. To top it off they go for higher transaction price and don't flood back into residual market in 12 months destroying residual value. Let's hope that the domestics can hold onto this business because the foreigners are making inroads on it and I bet want a piece of it. Luckilly most governments will only buy domestic. If they didn't, the many domestic employes in MI would be upset and try to do something about it. So we shouldn't be bitching on here about fleet sales to government and business. As for fleet sales to rental agencies, that is not good and Ford has shown factually that it has dropped that business significantly. The Koreans especially and the Japanese to a lesser extent have filled in the void. That is GOOD. Let them have the market and destroy their residuals as thousands of these vehicles flood used car market. I think I saw that the Sonata is almost 50% fleet sales. Ford has been disciplined in getting out of this business for the most part. Ford gives out these numbers in their monthly sales report. They give number to how many units they cut back that month from previous year. The Fusion, Taurus, Escape, and Edge are not rental fleet queens. Ford has stated many times that they will never be higher than 20% for year. You know that someone is going to fill in the void to rental fleets as the domestics cut back significantly. So I personally drive a company car and it's a 2004 Taurus. My company has a fairly large fleet and everyone is domestic being either GM or Ford. The owner is not stupid and although he loves foreign buys only domestic politically speaking in order not to rub people wrong way. A buddy of mine drives company car too for big international company and list he can order from includes DOMESTIC only. Ford will not do business with them in that they can't get good price, but Chrysler especially and GM to lesser extent offer more attractive discounts. So Ford has cut back on sales to rental companies and even to businesses does not offer the deep discounts that Chrysler has been offering and to lesser extent what GM has been offering to business fleets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted December 25, 2007 Share Posted December 25, 2007 The other problem with Fleet Central's figures is they don't quite jive with what Ford gives out on a month to month basis, leaving their info to be suspect at times. Its a good base line, but sure not the end all when it comes to fleet numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fusion0206 Posted December 26, 2007 Share Posted December 26, 2007 So...the Fusion refresh, MY2009 or 2010? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igor Posted December 26, 2007 Share Posted December 26, 2007 So...the Fusion refresh, MY2009 or 2010? 2009 model - on sale by Christmas 2008. Igor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah Harbinger Posted December 26, 2007 Share Posted December 26, 2007 2009 model - on sale by Christmas 2008. Igor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious1Auto Posted December 26, 2007 Share Posted December 26, 2007 2009 model - on sale by Christmas 2008. Igor Even if it is identical to the current Fusion, all I care is that there is a Turbo/Supercharged option, that along with the availability of the SYNC system is enough to get me to trade in my current Fusion for the new model! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueblood Posted December 26, 2007 Share Posted December 26, 2007 Even if it is identical to the current Fusion, all I care is that there is a Turbo/Supercharged option, that along with the availability of the SYNC system is enough to get me to trade in my current Fusion for the new model! Sorry, those engines will be delayed until 2011... :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious1Auto Posted December 26, 2007 Share Posted December 26, 2007 (edited) Sorry, those engines will be delayed until 2011... :lol: Well maybe by then the SYNC will play DVD and avi video files on a 7" screen along with music files! Edited December 26, 2007 by Furious1Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted December 27, 2007 Share Posted December 27, 2007 Aren't those the pictures that people have referred to as "outdated sketches" For 'outdated sketches,' that Fusion front end sketch does sure look close to what you can see under camoflage of recent testing mules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted December 27, 2007 Share Posted December 27, 2007 Exactly, the number of sales does not mean that the product is inferior, the true test is profitability and the Fusion is profitable! The Fusion is not built in one plant because of the size of the market otherwise Ford would be giving them away like Toyota with the Tundra. I saved this in My documents because I knew I would be forced to post it again. It has been a long time but here it is again! Well said, both what you said and that quote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted December 27, 2007 Share Posted December 27, 2007 300C? Edge? They were on fire when they first came. Edge now is the best selling vehicle in it's class. That's a home-run. Edge is doing well, I think we all know that. Hopefully it can continue to have increasing sales month after month and not begin to drop off a cliff like the LX cars are beginning to do. I think continual improvments will help to thwart that, and by the looks of things, those improvements are coming year after year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted December 27, 2007 Share Posted December 27, 2007 Maybe I missed something in this thread because I'm under the influence of vicodin (had a sinus surgery to remove polyps and fix my deviated septum on Friday), but this thread seems to be less about the new Fusion and more about arguing whether or not the Fusion is a success. If I had something better to do, I might actually be slightly upset due to this thread's lack of intelligent conversation. But, seeing as there isn't anything better for me to do, carry on. First of all, I hope you fully recover from your surgery soon and w/out any problems. Back on topic, (sort of) doesn't every thread on BOF eventually turn into some sort of argument (usually involving Pscario) on whether or not the Fusion is a success? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted December 27, 2007 Share Posted December 27, 2007 (edited) 2009 model - on sale by Christmas 2008. Igor That seems so far away, I was thinking we'd see it on sale before then for some reason, but I guess not. Edited December 30, 2007 by rmc523 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moosetang Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 That seems so far away, I was thinking we'd see it before then for some reason, but I guess not. We probably will see it before then. If its on sale by X-mas its bound to be at NY or Chicago before then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 We probably will see it before then. If its on sale by X-mas its bound to be at NY or Chicago before then. Sorry, I should have clarified: That seems so far away, I was thinking we'd see it on sale before then for some reason, but I guess not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah Harbinger Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 Maybe they want to stagger the launch with the F150, so they can focus on quality control for each launch? The F-150 is, after all, much more important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted December 31, 2007 Author Share Posted December 31, 2007 Sorry, I should have clarified: That seems so far away, I was thinking we'd see it on sale before then for some reason, but I guess not. I bet that Job 1 date for 2009 Fusion is late summer and shipping by early to mid October, '08 with other '09 models. The 2008 Fusion started appearing in August, '07, and I doubt if Ford is going to wait almost 18 months to debut '09 model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted December 31, 2007 Author Share Posted December 31, 2007 Maybe they want to stagger the launch with the F150, so they can focus on quality control for each launch? The F-150 is, after all, much more important. Ford has a lot of important launches this year: Flex Job 1 date is April 1, 2008 2009 F-150 launch date is July, 2008 Lincoln MKS launch date summer, 2008 Upgraded Escape sometime in 2008 2009 Fusion launch date summer or fall, 2008 That should keep the Ford launch teams rather busy. Flex is very important launch to get perfect also along with F-150. Of course the F-150 is far more complex with more than one plant building them. That has to be a really challenging one. But the Flex is crucial too as it's all new and Ford needs to really get a strong grip on CUV market and needs the Flex to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P71_CrownVic Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 Upgraded Escape sometime in 2008 They already need to update the Escape? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suv_guy_19 Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 They already need to update the Escape? Engine... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 . . . transmission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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