papilgee4evaeva Posted May 30, 2008 Share Posted May 30, 2008 LOL i was like "i thought i ignored that bastard" then i looked a little closer who made this account.....Richard? I KNOW! I mean, I know my eyesight is horrible, but I was really :blink: :do what: :blink: before I realized it wasn't him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted May 30, 2008 Share Posted May 30, 2008 $14 is not low wage..i know people who would give their left nut for $14 and hour... Man where do you live ?!! My son make between $14-15. He can not afford an apartment and a car payment. A friend of a friend is teaching in NC. About $28K/year. She had to drop her cable to save a couple of bucks. Oh yeah, she is driving a 15 year old car and moving in with a fellow teacher next year with hopes of buying a new car. Now that the cost of fuel is starting to affect the cost of EVERYTHING life is really going to get bad for these folks. They talk about third world countries where people are now getting 2 meals a day. Looks like many in the US will be moving down to 2 meals a day. I saw a blurb on the tube the other day. Many school lunch programs are cutting back on fresh fruits, vegetables and meats in favor of more pasta and potatoes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmm55 Posted May 30, 2008 Share Posted May 30, 2008 Wasn't the Focus production moved to the US from Mexico? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igor Posted May 30, 2008 Share Posted May 30, 2008 This is what I posted in the Employee section .... I am not an employee, so I will try to be courteous to all of you, but the very basic, simple truth is that Ron lied to all of you to get your hopes up. Fiesta was approved for Cuatitlan months before the contract negotiations began. The plant's car line stopped production last year around October, and is currently being gutted for significant upgrades - all this was approved in spring.summer 2007 at the latest, and no matter how much Ron "tried" with all this underway, changing plans would just rack up costs - it was too late to change. I know people had their hopes up, and it seems GM will build B-cars in US by 2012, but these are not "sell out" steps by Ford - these steps have nothing to do with your contract - these steps were not even included in the discussion - everything was underway for Cuatitlan by then - remodeling labor was contracted, machinery ordered .. it was simply too late to change course. In light of this - Ron's public claims should have been much more - realistic; instead of claiming there was hope for this product to come states-side, he should have told you the truth. That said, there are no other plans for Mexican assembly, beyond the Hermosillo and Cuatitlan plants - Focus, Escape, everything else is staying in US, and more products will be added. This is very difference from others - Toyota still imports 50% of their production, GM now builds most Saturns abroad, and will move more production to Mexico. Igor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted May 30, 2008 Share Posted May 30, 2008 seriously! could not agree more. my parents both make 11.90 an hour and have managed to live a nice life. you dont need to make 30 bucks an hour to live, although it would be nice. the key is to live within your means. i know plenty of people who make 90k a year who have less money then those making 30k All depends where you live too.....I make decent money, but no way in hell could I afford even an apartment on 15 bucks an hour where I live. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battyr Posted May 30, 2008 Share Posted May 30, 2008 The UAW gave up quite a lot, and still The UAW gave up a lot to keep jobs from going to Toyota, not Mexico. They Mexican plant will still be bringing in many parts from US-UAW plants, and hopefully be exporting a lot of cars to Brasil. I would think they would have to build them in Brazil if they were built in the US. They might build them in Brazil any. Brazil will be building CUV versions for sure. Maybe a B-max too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlhm5 Posted May 30, 2008 Share Posted May 30, 2008 (edited) What AMERICAN BUILT subcompact will they buy instead? [insert pic of Tom Brady on his backside] What you fail to grasp is most Americans feel if a car is built in the USA by Americans it is an American car, regardless of the location or nationality of the headquarters of the auto manufacturer. So it does not make any difference if Ford is an American company, if it's cars are built in Mexico or Canada. By being global and manufacturing in the cheapest space, Ford has virtually eliminated any advantage they might have had by claiming to be an American manufacturer. On the other hand as more foreign auto manufacturers locate and expand operations in the USA, their cars appear to be more American even though the company is HQ in a foreign country. If Honda can build the Civic in the USA and add new Civic plants and thousands of new USA manufacturing jobs, why can't Ford build the Fiesta in the USA? Edited May 30, 2008 by mlhm5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old_fairmont_wagon Posted May 30, 2008 Share Posted May 30, 2008 Largely because everyone is so brainwashed into thinking that the Civic is a wholely superior vehicle to its domestic competition that the buying public is willing to pay a significant premium to purchase said Civic. In fact, the average transaction for the Civic is bordering on the ATP for 4 cylinder CD3 vehicles (when all incentives are added in). The Civic is a C class vehicle. The CD3s are C-D class vehicles. The Fiesta will be a B-class vehicle that will have even smaller profit margins than the larger CD3s. I am wholely amazed that Ford can currently afford to build the Focus in the US and at least break even. Given current focus demand, they're likely currently turning a small profit on them, but let it slump, and it will be another story alltogether. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snooter Posted May 30, 2008 Share Posted May 30, 2008 Man where do you live ?!! My son make between $14-15. He can not afford an apartment and a car payment. A friend of a friend is teaching in NC. About $28K/year. She had to drop her cable to save a couple of bucks. Oh yeah, she is driving a 15 year old car and moving in with a fellow teacher next year with hopes of buying a new car. Now that the cost of fuel is starting to affect the cost of EVERYTHING life is really going to get bad for these folks. They talk about third world countries where people are now getting 2 meals a day. Looks like many in the US will be moving down to 2 meals a day. I saw a blurb on the tube the other day. Many school lunch programs are cutting back on fresh fruits, vegetables and meats in favor of more pasta and potatoes. ..wow....how can she survive without CABLE....the end is near if people have to give up CABLE...i survived on 9.54 and hour...busted my ass and worked jobs nobody wanted....may be its time for your friend of a friend to get of her lazy butt and work her way up...so $14 an hour is not a low wage and looks damn compared to 9.54 an hour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted May 30, 2008 Share Posted May 30, 2008 If Honda can build the Civic in the USA and add new Civic plants and thousands of new USA manufacturing jobs, why can't Ford build the Fiesta in the USA? If you actually read the article, it states: Honda Motor Co. of Japan says it will shift production of its Pilot sport utility vehicle and Ridgeline pickup from Alliston, Ont., to Alabama. At the same time, the automaker will increase production of the Civic at the Ontario plant to meet a growing demand for small cars. So, the Civic production has been concentrated at the Alliston plant. So, it seems that Honda can no longer build a Civic in the US. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igor Posted May 30, 2008 Share Posted May 30, 2008 What you fail to grasp is most Americans feel if a car is built in the USA by Americans it is an American car, regardless of the location or nationality of the headquarters of the auto manufacturer. So it does not make any difference if Ford is an American company, if it's cars are built in Mexico or Canada. By being global and manufacturing in the cheapest space, Ford has virtually eliminated any advantage they might have had by claiming to be an American manufacturer. On the other hand as more foreign auto manufacturers locate and expand operations in the USA, their cars appear to be more American even though the company is HQ in a foreign country. If Honda can build the Civic in the USA and add new Civic plants and thousands of new USA manufacturing jobs, why can't Ford build the Fiesta in the USA? Civic is built in the US - guess what so is Corolla, Focus, and Cobalt - those are COMPACTS Fit, Yaris, Aveo, Versa, Rio, Accent - oh yes - THOSE are SUBCOMPACTS (competing with Fiesta) - and guess what NONE of them are made in US - most in Japan and Korea, some in Mexico. Let's compare apples to apples - shall we? Igor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlhm5 Posted May 30, 2008 Share Posted May 30, 2008 (edited) If you actually read the article, it states: So, the Civic production has been concentrated at the Alliston plant. So, it seems that Honda can no longer build a Civic in the US. Sorry, here is the money quote. "He also said Honda will create another 2,000 North American jobs when a plant to build Civics opens in Indiana later this year." That's "new" as in new plant and "new" as in 2000 American manufacturing jobs. So Honda can build a new plant to produce Civics and hire new workers right here in the USA and Ford has to build the Fiesta in Mexico, because.... Edited May 30, 2008 by mlhm5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalepsy Posted May 30, 2008 Share Posted May 30, 2008 I gave up TV 2 years ago so I guess the end is near! I don't think there's any sense in being bitter about having to compete with workers in other countries. We live in one of the most privileged societies in the world, and if a person cannot succeed or feed yourself, it is your own fault. Take some responsibility for your own life and deal with it. ..wow....how can she survive without CABLE....the end is near if people have to give up CABLE...i survived on 9.54 and hour...busted my ass and worked jobs nobody wanted....may be its time for your friend of a friend to get of her lazy butt and work her way up...so $14 an hour is not a low wage and looks damn compared to 9.54 an hour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igor Posted May 30, 2008 Share Posted May 30, 2008 Please stop using facts and reason. It's not fair. Actually - i have to give you one thing - the Cobalt and Corolla have apparently so little interior space, EPA actually classifies them as subcompacts ... so in a sense you are right - customers could pick those up as US built alternatives. I want to double check this, but EPA's Fueleconomy.gov is down (weird) so I cannot right now. Igor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlhm5 Posted May 30, 2008 Share Posted May 30, 2008 Please stop using facts and reason. It's not fair. So the only way Ford can make a profit on this car is to build it in Mexico where the labor rates are really low and benefits are nonexistant? NOT! BMW builds the Mini in the UK and sells it here in the USA if you are looking for a sub compact built in a high labor cost area that is sold at a profit in the USA. Ford could have manufactured the Fiesta in the USA and made money but decided to make more money by building it in Mexico. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlhm5 Posted May 30, 2008 Share Posted May 30, 2008 Please stop using facts and reason. It's not fair. Very funny. Did you get a 10 year old to do it for you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSFan00 Posted May 30, 2008 Share Posted May 30, 2008 Since my beloved Texas will basically be a part of Mexico in another 20 years, I consider this a domestic. Yay us! Great news, not that it's actually news. Hopefully, with the Fiesta, and someday needing more than 3 shifts at Hermosillo for the NA Mondeo, Ford Mexico production will truly be booming in a few years. Mexican Fords have much higher quality than UAW Fords in any case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igor Posted May 30, 2008 Share Posted May 30, 2008 (edited) So the only way Ford can make a profit on this car is to build it in Mexico where the labor rates are really low and benefits are nonexistant? NOT! BMW builds the Mini in the UK and sells it here in the USA if you are looking for a sub compact built in a high labor cost area that is sold at a profit in the USA. Ford could have manufactured the Fiesta in the USA and made money but decided to make more money by building it in Mexico. Did you even read my post that I posted halfway down previous page? When the contract talks started, the Cuatitlan plant was already being prepped for the remodel - the contract (and the lower US wages ) cam in too late. Moreover, there is a single reason why Fusion is built in Mexico and it is NOT wages - it is trade agreements. Fusion replaced Mondeo in all South-American countries, and Ford openly admitted, that because of trade agreements between South America and US and EU (or lack of thereof) a car produced in EU, or US would have to be $2,000 more expensive, just on tariffs alone. The Fiesta will export to many SA countries as well - so US prduction site is unrealistic - especially on such a small car where $2,000 is 4% of price. Finally, Mexico is not China - Hermosillo and Cuatitlan are unionized, and get some very good benefits. Comparing their wages to their life expenses, they actually earn more than UAW workers, but because cost of living in Mexico is so much lower, their pay is only $10-$12 an hour plus benefits (compared to $18-$30 plus benefits in US). Ford is not going to China to source the car - they are going to Mexico - and as i pointed out, they would be THE ONLY ONES to produce a subcompact in US Finally (2) - MINI!?!?!?! A "subcompact' that starts at $18k, and tops off at $35l? That is about the worst example you have used to date. That is Fusion, even Taurus territory - just because it is small, does not mean it compares. The Fiesta will be $4k or more cheaper. Igor Edited May 30, 2008 by igor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted May 30, 2008 Share Posted May 30, 2008 Mexican Fords have much higher quality than UAW Fords in any case. Not really. Focus, D3s and CD3s are all pretty much on par. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted May 30, 2008 Share Posted May 30, 2008 BMW builds the Mini in the UK and sells it here in the USA if you are looking for a sub compact built in a high labor cost area that is sold at a profit in the USA. Uh, yeah, and Ford is going to be selling 2500 Fiestas a month at $20k per. Tell me, are the life forms carbon based on your planet, or silicon based? Scientists say that silicon based life is possible, but I think there are all kinds of flaws with that theory. Silicon is just not as versatile an element as carbon. Maybe you can shed some light on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted May 30, 2008 Share Posted May 30, 2008 So the only way Ford can make a profit on this car is to build it in Mexico where the labor rates are really low and benefits are nonexistant? NOT! BMW builds the Mini in the UK and sells it here in the USA if you are looking for a sub compact built in a high labor cost area that is sold at a profit in the USA. Ford could have manufactured the Fiesta in the USA and made money but decided to make more money by building it in Mexico. The price point on the Fiesta will probably start around $12,000 I think you nearly got away with the Mini arguement except it's a niche product that starts at $18,700. Nice try all the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnjyi Posted May 30, 2008 Share Posted May 30, 2008 there you go again with all those facts and things that make sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlhm5 Posted May 30, 2008 Share Posted May 30, 2008 (edited) Did you even read my post that I posted halfway down previous page? When the contract talks started, the Cuatitlan plant was already being prepped for the remodel - the contract (and the lower US wages ) cam in too late. Moreover, there is a single reason why Fusion is built in Mexico and it is NOT wages - it is trade agreements. Fusion replaced Mondeo in all South-American countries, and Ford openly admitted, that because of trade agreements between South America and US and EU (or lack of thereof) a car produced in EU, or US would have to be $2,000 more expensive, just on tariffs alone. The Fiesta will export to many SA countries as well - so US prduction site is unrealistic - especially on such a small car where $2,000 is 4% of price. Finally, Mexico is not China - Hermosillo and Cuatitlan are unionized, and get some very good benefits. Comparing their wages to their life expenses, they actually earn more than UAW workers, but because cost of living in Mexico is so much lower, their pay is only $10-$12 an hour plus benefits (compared to $18-$30 plus benefits in US). Ford is not going to China to source the car - they are going to Mexico - and as i pointed out, they would be THE ONLY ONES to produce a subcompact in US Finally (2) - MINI!?!?!?! A "subcompact' that starts at $18k, and tops off at $35l? That is about the worst example you have used to date. That is Fusion, even Taurus territory - just because it is small, does not mean it compares. The Fiesta will be $4k or more cheaper. Igor The only reason Ford is not building it in China is because they can drive/rail the cars from Mexico to the USA. Get real, if Ford could offshore everything and still sell cars here in the USA, they would. It's all about the bottom line and not about who or where it is built. You can push that too far if you are not careful and I for one prefer to buy a car that employs an American worker vs. adds money to the pocket of a shareholder. BTW, what's the practical difference between a illegal immigrant taking a job away from an American and an American company off shoring American jobs. Edited May 30, 2008 by mlhm5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted May 30, 2008 Share Posted May 30, 2008 (edited) Yeah. All those subcompacts currently built in the US will soon be built...... Uh, are there any subcompacts built in the US?????? Well, the Mustang is technically a subcompact based on EPA passenger space. :lol: And what do you know, the Mustang prices out pretty similarly in many cases to the Mini Cooper mlmh5 is blabbering about. Yes, Ford can make money on a subcompact built in the US....if it's priced $10,000 higher than the other subcompacts on the market...which the Fiesta won't be. Edited May 30, 2008 by NickF1011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igor Posted May 30, 2008 Share Posted May 30, 2008 The only reason Ford is not building it in China is because they can drive/rail the cars from Mexico to the USA. Get real, if Ford could offshore everything and still sell cars here in the USA, they would. It's all about the bottom line and not about who or where it is built. You can push that too far if you are not careful and I for one prefer to buy a car that employs an American worker vs. adds money to the pocket of a shareholder. BTW, what's the practical difference between a illegal immigrant taking a job away from an American and an American company off shoring American jobs. :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: I rarely side with Richard on flaming members - but this time - he is spot on ... Igor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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