Ford Delaying '09 -150 Launch

[Bassgod]

You Sir, stand to be commended. First I want to say a hearty thank you for what you are doing. Second, from what you've written, the impact to you is enormous. YOU are the customer Ford so desperately wants and needs. YOU are what makes the company and allows it to continue.

 

You are what the company is structuring for. IF Ford can satisfy you and keep you as a customer then their is a future for it. Times have changed. you just told it in a very human way.

 

Again, I want to offer you a thank you.

 

You are most certainly welcome, and thanks for the kind words. Ford will always have a customer in me, I got that from my dad, who got it from his dad.

[jpd80]

You are most certainly welcome, and thanks for the kind words. Ford will always have a customer in me,

I got that from my dad, who got it from his dad.

 

The force is strong in this one.

[F250]

Because DTP makes the high end (poser) trucks. Your truck buyer that buys a truck to drive because it's cool is not buying. Your worker (real) trucks are and always will sell. It may also have something to do with the shitty frames we got from magna. Anyone know if KCAP uses any magna frames?

Plain and simple, KCAP will launch with one crew (probable a high mix of work trucks). DTP may or may not be retooled to make those same trucks (no one knows for sure). Having worked on the launch at DTP, it has nothing to do with build quality...all of our problems (and KCAP as well) have been design and engineering issues.

 

Thanks for replying, I know you worked the launch at DTP.

The question remains, if all of the problems have been engineering issues and not final assembly then what is gained by switching lead plants at the last minute? So the new plan is to idle DTP for weeks while cutting KCAP to 1 shift and then having them try to launch the next F-150 single handed.

The frame has been lightened from the previous P221 what type of issues are surfacing? I was not aware of multiple sources for frames for different plants.

I can't see Ford launching with a high number of XL work trucks when there are so many unsold '08s in inventory to price cut. Both plants can build the most popular middle ground XLTs and regular Lariats. The Platinum, KingRanch, Harley etc can come later.

 

It looks like ALL of Ford's "Way Forward" cuts may have damaged the company's ability to get the job done

Edited June 24, 2008 by F250

[RichardJensen]

Yeah. FORD's cuts are the reason why FORD got bad frames from MAGNA. w/e.

[F250]

Yeah. FORD's cuts are the reason why FORD got bad frames from MAGNA. w/e.

 

That excuse is getting old Richard. "Oh it's not Ford's fault it is an outside supplier" Bullshit. There is an old saying: If you want a job done right then do it yourself! When did ford become just a marketing company? Cant they even build their own frames anymore?! I mean they spent the last 5-years bragging about the F-150 frame and now that there appears to be a problem they can't hide behind the tired old "we didn't build that part" excuse!

[RichardJensen]

Ford getting frames from outside suppliers is NOT a new thing. They've been buying frames from companies like Tower and Magna for Y-E-A-R-S.

Edited June 24, 2008 by RichardJensen

[FordBuyer]

You are most certainly welcome, and thanks for the kind words. Ford will always have a customer in me, I got that from my dad, who got it from his dad.

 

Same here. I have always driven a Ford product and will do so until I can't drive anymore. Even if Ford went out of business, I would drive a used Ford product no matter what. Ford is in my blood. Never feel comfortable driving anything else. Lifelong customer.

[rmc523]

60 days is the historical ideal! The F150 has been running a 100 day supply since 2004 (I have seen the inside numbers). This explains the low ongoing $200/month leases for XLT's. Ford has subsided this vehicle in the market for years, It should be no surprize that it's not exactly what the customer whats. Furthermore, when all the leases are turn back they will get hammered again with low residuals. Ford has already indicated this might be a $1,000,000,000 ($1B) problem at Ford Motor Creidt, but what's a few more red zeros.

 

Listen Dearborn, especially those on the Glasshouse 12th floor.... We new a NEW North American designed & build RANGER.

 

Red, White, and Blue!!! That's the only market advantage we have left... for now.

 

You mean like the new Ranger that's coming, along with the new F-100?

[DearbornDerek]

Yeah. FORD's cuts are the reason why FORD got bad frames from MAGNA. w/e.

 

That excuse is getting old Richard. "Oh it's not Ford's fault it is an outside supplier" Bullshit. There is an old saying: If you want a job done right then do it yourself! When did ford become just a marketing company? Cant they even build their own frames anymore?! I mean they spent the last 5-years bragging about the F-150 frame and now that there appears to be a problem they can't hide behind the tired old "we didn't build that part" excuse!

 

 

Well for the entire P221 we (DTP) got our frames from Dana. In comes comes Magna and says they can build them cheaper than Dana, even though they get the unassembled frames from Dana and then assemble them. So, when everything is all said and done the Magna frames end up costing $300 more per frame than Dana and the 4X2 frames are splitting during durability testing.

Edited June 24, 2008 by DearbornDerek

[rmc523]

Well for the entire P221 we (DTP) got our frames from Dana. In comes comes Magna and says they can build them cheaper than Dana, even though they get the unassembled frames from Dana and then assemble them. So, when everything is all said and done the Magna frames end up costing $300 more per frame than Dana and the 4X2 frames are splitting during durability testing.

 

So will you be going back to Dana?

[DearbornDerek]

So will you be going back to Dana?

 

:shrug:

[theoldwizard]

Ford getting frames from outside suppliers is NOT a new thing. They've been buying frames from companies like Tower and Magna for Y-E-A-R-S.

Tower went into bankruptcy a few years ago and I don't know if they are out today. Tower's management willingness to submit to Ford's pricing demands certainly contributed.

 

Given the same spec to 2 different American suppliers, I'm certain one will always find a way to cut corners and still pass "initial inspection" and have a lower cost part, but will the overall quality be the same ?

 

"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after low pricing is forgotten!" never seems to sink home with Ford Purchasing.

Edited June 24, 2008 by theoldwizard

[F250]

Well for the entire P221 we (DTP) got our frames from Dana. In comes comes Magna and says they can build them cheaper than Dana, even though they get the unassembled frames from Dana and then assemble them. So, when everything is all said and done the Magna frames end up costing $300 more per frame than Dana and the 4X2 frames are splitting during durability testing.

 

Thanks again DearbornDerek, I understand if you know whats happening you may be limited on what you can say. Still, switching lead plants and temp idling DTP will not fix the standard 4X2 frame issue. So this problem was caused by Ford managment going with a cheaper supplier, because you know according to Mark Fields it's smart to cut expenses (except his airplane rides) to the bone...cheaper is always better no matter how much it costs you later. Where is Mulally? Out scouting for some third world slave labor to build the next Focus?

 

Richard, that's what Henry wanted when he built the Rouge, total control of manufacturing from raw iron ore to complete automobile in one location. Of course today that kind of thinking is considered completely ineffecient. Still, if you dont build it then you cannot control its quality...a lesson they re-learned with the Ford...I mean...Navistar diesel engines.

[theoldwizard]

... So, when everything is all said and done the Magna frames end up costing $300 more per frame than Dana and the 4X2 frames are splitting during durability testing.

Where did you hear the $300 number from ? If the splitting is real/repeatable and gets into the field, the long term damage to the the Ford Truck reputation could kill the company. Look at all the bad press Toyota has had with tailgates and twisted boxes because of excessive frame flexing.

 

Maybe a guy like you needs to send an email to Mulally !

 

Sometimes Purchasing does lose the battle.

 

The old Thunderbird supercharged V6 was originally spec'd to have a forged crank. Some small foundry had a "new process" that could cast them "just as strong". A few hundred engines were built and after a lot of dyno failures, they went back to the forged crank. Thank goodness the productions forging dies were already on the shelf !

Edited June 24, 2008 by theoldwizard

[Blue II]

He didn't want to buy a truck with the 6.2. He wanted to buy the engine, from Ford racing, to put in his muscle car.

 

Thats what I don't get. He is using the excuse that he is so pissed because the F150 will suck............. because it doesn't have a 400+hp V8............ yet he had no intention of buying one anyway.

 

Somehow, in this climate, I don't think anyone will give the lack of the 6.2 a second thought. 5.0 "sounds" good, because it is smaller than the current V8, and will make more power and probably better fuel economy. 6.2 "sounds" like thirsty behemouth.

 

We are talking about perception here.

 

 

The 6.2 SOHC 2V PFI is thirsty. It has great power and is best suited for the SD. The F-100 and all it's variants will be the focus of efficiency. That is why the 6.2 was cancelled for the current F-150 and future F-100.

[rmc523]

Where is Mulally? Out scouting for some third world slave labor to build the next Focus?

 

Well, except for the fact that the next Focus will be built right here in the US, yeah, that's where he is.

[DanaEng]

So will you be going back to Dana?

Dana still makes 2/3 of the F-150 frames.

[rmc523]

Dana still makes 2/3 of the F-150 frames.

 

Welcome to BOF first of all.

 

I see, well did they at one point make all the frames, then it was switched with some being Magna's job? If so, I wonder if they'll go back to Dana making all the frames?

[DanaEng]

Welcome to BOF first of all.

 

I see, well did they at one point make all the frames, then it was switched with some being Magna's job? If so, I wonder if they'll go back to Dana making all the frames?

Yes previous to 2008 Dana made all the F-150 and Super Duty frames. Magna now makes the Super duty and 1/3 of F-150. Going back to all Dana probably will not happen but we are hoping to get the F-100 and run it on the Exp/Nav frame line.

Edited June 24, 2008 by DanaEng

[F250]

Well, except for the fact that the next Focus will be built right here in the US, yeah, that's where he is.

 

Thats good news for now...because his previous statements are...concerning: from business week MSNBC

When Mulally was reviewing the company's 2008 product line last September, for example, he was told that Ford loses close to $3,000 every time a customer buys a Focus compact, according to one executive. "Why haven't you figured out a way to make a profit?" he asked Executives explained that Ford needed the high sales volume to maintain the company's CAFE, or corporate average fuel economy, rating and that the plant that makes the car is a high-cost UAW factory in Michigan. "That's not what I asked," he shot back. "I want to know why no one figured out a way to build this car at a profit, whether it has to be built in Michigan or China or India, if that's what it takes." Nobody had a good answer.

 

Sounds like if he could find a quick and dirty way to build it with third world slave labor that is what he would do. Wonder how long it will take to build new plants in those countries?

Edited June 24, 2008 by F250

[F250]

Well for the entire P221 we (DTP) got our frames from Dana. In comes comes Magna and says they can build them cheaper than Dana, even though they get the unassembled frames from Dana and then assemble them. So, when everything is all said and done the Magna frames end up costing $300 more per frame than Dana and the 4X2 frames are splitting during durability testing.

 

You couldn't make this stuff up. Wonder which executive genius thought it was a good idea to pay more for a weaker frame. Dana has proven their quality, Ford has been bragging about their frames for the past 5 model years. I thought Ford knew better than to go cheap on something this critical.

[jpd80]

The bit you edited out was interesting:

 

Executives explained that Ford needed the high sales volume to maintain the company's CAFE,

or corporate average fuel economy, rating and that the plant that makes the car is a high-cost UAW factory in Michigan.

 

Not a good way to impress your new boss, probably got torn a new ass over that!!

I'm sure the Focus is in the black now, according to Detnews.com - $100/car.

I believe from my research and emails that's insider info too.

Edited June 25, 2008 by jpd80

[F250]

I suppose I should explain my attacks.

I'm a F-150 owning Ford fan that does not want to see the '09 fail. Someone said Ford needs this to be a problem free launch, no shit, they cannot afford to damage their truck reputation. And lets face it they dont have the money to pay out to fix problems right now. Last weeks announcment was very alarming, it sounds like there could be other serious issues with this launch. But at least they are holding up to prevent known problems from reaching the customers...unlike Toyota who admitted they knowingly shipped defective Tundras to their customers to meet launch deadlines.

Edited June 25, 2008 by F250

[NickF1011]

I suppose I should explain my attacks.

I'm a F-150 owning Ford fan that does not want to see the '09 fail. Someone said Ford needs this to be a problem free launch, no shit, they cannot afford to damage their truck reputation. And lets face it they dont have the money to pay out to fix problems right now. Last weeks announcment was very alarming, it sounds like there could be other serious issues with this launch. But at least they are holding up to prevent known problems from reaching the customers...unlike Toyota who admitted they knowingly shipped defective Tundras to their customers to meet launch deadlines.

 

The biggest reason for the delay, hands down, is inventory. There are just far too many unsold '08's out there to justify cranking out new '09's (over 140-day supply on-hand if I recall). Yes, there may be a minor problem here and there to iron out, but the glut of unsold inventory is the obvious main cause for this delay.

Edited June 25, 2008 by NickF1011

[mettech]

Thanks again DearbornDerek, I understand if you know whats happening you may be limited on what you can say. Still, switching lead plants and temp idling DTP will not fix the standard 4X2 frame issue. So this problem was caused by Ford managment going with a cheaper supplier, because you know according to Mark Fields it's smart to cut expenses (except his airplane rides) to the bone...cheaper is always better no matter how much it costs you later. Where is Mulally? Out scouting for some third world slave labor to build the next Focus?

 

Richard, that's what Henry wanted when he built the Rouge, total control of manufacturing from raw iron ore to complete automobile in one location. Of course today that kind of thinking is considered completely ineffecient. Still, if you dont build it then you cannot control its quality...a lesson they re-learned with the Ford...I mean...Navistar diesel engines.

 

I have proof of that in my driveway. My '05 F-350, 6.0L with a list of problems that span 2.5 pages.

 

In two-three years when I'm ready to trade trucks again, Ford had better get this issue solved or I'm going shopping somewhere else.

 

The new Navistar gets the worse MPG and still has problems. Not a comforting deal maker.